Middle Earth as a Parallel Universe

[Lord of Angmar]

This is just a bit of fun speculation, try not to take it too seriously.

The fact that parallel universes exist has been proven beyond much doubt, though the nature of their existence is still the subject of fierce scientific debate. Many people think that they are merely reflections, that 'hold no water', so to speak, and do not exist in the physical and spiritual sense that our own universe does. Others believe that there are infinite universes in which lives are carried out trillions and trillions of different ways, one for every conceivable and even unimaginable variable that could occur at any given point in the history of time.

First, I will demonstrate the basic knowledge behind the vastly studied and (mostly) scientifically approved theory that parallel universes exist. It is not yet dogma in the world of physical scientists, but its basic principal is generally accepted.

What is a parallel universe? Like an everyday universe it is a region of space and time containing matter, galaxies, stars, planets and living beings. (Fred Alan Wolf, Parallel Universe)

Parallel universes can range from near exact copies of our own universes (these would be the ones where only a minor observed variation occured and this meaningless variable was branched into a separate universe) to radically different universes where millions of inexplicable variables came into being and which altered the entire worldscape and even universal structure. It is a vast spectrum of different universes, each containing multitudes of anomalous and indescribable worlds.

This spectrum includes quantum physics, unification of new ideas about universes, relativity, cosmology, a new notion of time, and psychology--or the effects of the human mind on all of this. (Wolf)

The last part of the sentence is one that is debated more among philosophers than scientists, although Wolf at least gives it a talk in his mostly scientifically-grounded book. The idea that the workings of the human mind can constitute variable changes that would produce an entire alternate universe is one that is oft discussed among philosophers, less so among scientists, although the idea is certainly plausible in the minds of many (my own included).

Here is an example of what quantum physicists by and large see to be an example of proof that parallel universes exist.

In 1967, physicist Pietr Largon (note: he was not the first nor the last to conduct this experiment) shined a high-watt lightbulb at a sheet of wax paper. Using sophisticated techniques, he mapped the range of the light ions that touched the paper. After making a comprehensive map of the light that hit the paper, he observed and concluded that there was not enough light touching the paper for it to be considered a 'wave', which is the form that light from such a bulb would certainly travel in. He concluded therefore that there must be other universes acting on our own, creating the effect of a wave of light when in actuality there were not enough ions to comprise a wave. This is a theory that you and I may have some deal of trouble grasping, but the way it has been explained to me (by Pietr and by other books concerning the subject), I am forced to believe that it is proof enough for physicists (a hard bunch to prove anything to) that parallel universes exist and digress from our own world, at an arguable rate of several trillion per second. They exist in their own 'reality', accessible only through quantum foam, a material so minute that a millionth of an atom would have a hard time squeezing through.

If there are any physicists here, feel free to correct any mistakes or incorrect judgements I may have overlooked or been ignorant of, but I have been brought to grips with the subject through a longtime friend and through (skimming) a few books, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to analyze the above theories and experiments.

I am sure by now you are wondering, "Where is he going with this?" Indeed, I may well win an award for longest post that nobody read, as I have not even touched upon the subject of Middle Earth or Professor Tolkien in the entire length of this post. Hopefully you have guessed at the title of this thread at what I am trying to get at.

This is not a belief of mine, merely a bit of speculation to eat up a slow Sunday morning. Hopefully it is grounded in fact enough so that I may not be considered by the extremely knowledgeable members of this site a crazy loon. The theory I put forth is simply this; since Professor Tolkien imagined and created in writing a world of his own, and gave it such a depth as to seem real, then (if you choose to see pyschology and variables within the human mind as a criterion for a new universe) Middle Earth could well exist as one of the trillion-variable worlds beyond our own sight and thought. It seems likely that within an infinite array of variables possible, an infinite prism of different universes and worlds would appear, and that every possible way of life and every possible variable on any possible action could be represented in another universe. If this was so, it would be possible for a Middle Earth to evolve, in the same way that Professor Tolkien saw it growing and evolving as he poured countless hours into over the course of his life.

I doubt many people have actually bothered to scroll down this far. I hope this post will be of some interest to at least a few of you, so that my breath is not needlessly wasted.

-Angmar

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 8:29 PM January 12, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

Great topic Angmar, but if a parralel universe was created at all, wouldn't it be a world where Professor Tolkien had not written Lotr? Just a thought. And for anyone reading this, if you are into stuff like this you should read Michael Criton's book "Timeline" which talks all about Parallel universes (sorry a bit off the topic).

[Lord of Angmar]

I have read Timeline, Squire, and I enjoyed it very much.

but if a parralel universe was created at all, wouldn't it be a world where Professor Tolkien had not written LotR?

Indeed there would be, Squire. In fact, strange as it may seem, there probably is a universe in existence in which the Professor did not write any of his books. However, there are possibilities for trillions and trillions of different universes, so a universe could exist where Tolkien or his works did not exist and a universe could exist where all of Tolkien's works are realized. Both can exist at the same time, as well as billions upon billions more!

[Sauron 666]

I fail to see any solid 'proof' of parallel universes in your post and all the scientific dithering diludes your post. But thats just me.

I believe middle earth exists, I believe it exists in all our imaginations, but because its existence resides in something purely amd completely subjective and individual (ie our minds), it doesn't exist in the physical universe, the 'outside world' 'real world' etc.

Its highly probable that there are other forms of life beyond our knowledge (ie out there in the universe) and its possible a society similair to ME could've evolved, however i find it even more likely that life evolving outside of our sphere of knowledge would be completely incomprehensible to us and would never come close to ressembling life on earth, otherwise the universe is a very ****** place indeed.

[Neferchoirwen]

In light of believing that Middle Earth exists...I've got two explanations to appease my pining imaginations

1) there is no "portal" that leads to the fantasy world that is middle earth unlike other fantasy novels that present the limits and unlimitation of THIS world and that of the fantasy world. (that whole thing may be a whole different thread topic, but thanks to an HP online class, i got my mind somehow easily tuned for this topic)

2) ME is a parallel universe in a literary sense

other than the reasons i have for believing in the exitence of middle earth (which was also used to call Europe, if i am not mistaken...), my reasons purely rest on fantasy.

But for all we know...it may JUST be possible...

[Lord of Angmar]

Let me address a few points here, mostly pertaining to Sauron 666's post.

First of all, let me get this out of the way: I do not believe the theory put forth above. Nor am I in any way an expert in the realm of physics. I did not mean to solidify with hard evidence a claim that parallel universes exist. I merely provided an example used by physicists and stated that it is generally accepted that variations of our own universe exist in dimensions that we cannot access. I do no believe that there is or ever was a Middle Earth, for the record, and my theory about psychological variables leading to the off-branching of new universes was meant more as a philosophical argument than scientific.

Its highly probable that there are other forms of life beyond our knowledge (ie out there in the universe) and its possible a society similair to ME could've evolved, however i find it even more likely that life evolving outside of our sphere of knowledge would be completely incomprehensible to us and would never come close to ressembling life on earth

This statement is ignorant of the point of my post. I was not suggesting that there is a planet out there like Middle Earth in our own universe, or that there are beings identical or similar to us within our own universe, since I do not know and cannot argue such a thing. However, Carl Sagan said that there are more possible DNA combinations than there are atoms in the universe, in which case life could have evolved millions of times over that resembles or is recognizable by human beings. That was not my point. My point was that, if parallel universes do exist which encompass every possible scenario and variable ever, and even scenarios that we cannot understand or explain, then there is the possibility of a world within a universe similar to that of Tolkien's imagination.

I apologize for my lengthy 'scientific dithering'. I was simply trying to set up a background for a theory. I did not set out to definitively prove that there are parallel universes or that there is a world like Tolkien's. I believe the theory of parallel universes, and the second theory I was merely putting forth for Tolkien fans to ponder.

[Lush]

Yeah, Sauron, you should lay off on L.o.A. a bit: his original post had nothing to do with the possibility of the existence of a planet whose society has evolved in such a way as to resemble Middle Earth.

Personally, I find the idea of parallel universes fascinating, but the theory appears to be incomplete, especially the part about the influence of the human mind on the whole thing. Perhaps you could elaborate on that bit, L.o.A.?

Furthermore, the thought of trillions of parallel universes leaves me slightly dejected, because I think that the possibility that they exist somehow undermines the individual in all of us.

Nevertheless, I know that scientific theories are not there to make me happy.

Great topic, Mr. Angmar.

[ August 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Lord of Angmar]

the theory appears to be incomplete, especially the part about the influence of the human mind on the whole thing. Perhaps you could elaborate on that bit, L.o.A.?

An excellent point, Lush. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I began writing this looking at it purely scientifically (which, I find, is always a mistake when analyzing Tolkien's works.) However, upon coming across the part about the human mind, I began to look at it more philosophically. If variables in the real world can branch of into physical universes of their own, why can not ideas do the same? What I mean is this: The underlying theory behind multiple universes is that there is always a cause for the shift. Here is an example. A person finds a wallet. In one universe, he gives back the wallet to the owner. In another, he keeps it. In a third universe, he burns it for no particular reason, etc. The possibilities for this seemingly small event in life can branch into millions of different universes where the "wallet" variable is the only difference.

My thought, and Fred Alan Wolf's thought, is that one's ideas could do the same; they could branch off into another universe, a variable created by the human mind. It may seem a bit of a stretch, and I am in no way inclined to believe it without any sort of supporting evidence, but it would be an interesting occurrence with huge implications about the power of the human mind. It is of course an underdeveloped theory (as are all "theories" that cannot be tested), and it may not be fully scientifically-grounded, but I decided to put it forth. Perhaps it could move readers to some sort of philosophical debate about the human mind as it relates to our world and our universe.

[Måns]

I have personally no problem with the scientific existence of paralell universes, though as I see it it remains an open question to believe in or not. I do, since the most convincing theories I have heard have been for it, but that is only my personal opinion. I would liek to write about it from a more philosophical point of view. I have no doubts about the existence of our world, just as much as I do not doubt this world. My reasoning is based on the question, what is the difference in perception?

What is reality? Basicly, what we call reality is small elecctrical signals sent to our brain by organs, form those signals we form a picture of reality. In this world, it is signals from our eyes, in ME it is slightly more complicated since our eyes cannot actually see what is happening. The key point though, is that we use the same parts of our brains to imagine middle earth. I see no difference since I doubt the reality of our world. If we can trick our eyes into thinking a red wall is blue, what colour has it? If you think it's blue and nobody else? If everybody thinks it's blue, who can then see a red wall and how real is it? I believe ME could be terminated. IF we burned every mention of it and all hwo knew of it took their lives, may it not happen, the world would cease to exist. It exists only in our mind, as does our world. Sorry or the haste in this post.

Måns

[QuickSlash]

I find the idea of parallel universes completely and entirely absurd, from everything I've seen of them. Makes me want to avoid phsyics. Bah.

And, personally, I don't believe that there's *that* much to the human mind. I don't think that thoughts could create an entire universe, no matter how detailed they are. It'd just be how everyone else said, where JRRT wrote this, or didn't, except going farther down to the molecular level.

I have a friend who believed in this, though. That there're literary universes, where any book that's been written is true. Eh. To each his own.

[Elennar Starfire]

Well, all my thoughts on parallel universes I got either from this thread or from Star Trek, so you all can totally ignore me if you like.

Parallel universes, to my mind, would "branch off" from this universe whenever any sort of choice is made. For every possible thing that could happen, there would be a parallel universe in which it did happen. Some would be almost identical to our universe, distinguished only by a small detail, while others would be totally different.

[Lord of Angmar]

That is an excellent summary for someone who owes all of their knowledge to this thread and to Star Trek, Elennar. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Gorwingel]

I guess I will have to study more physics (which I am taking this year) to understand much of what you talked about, because I don't get half of what you have written down at all.

The only thing that I kind of get (I think) is the thing about multiple universes each with their different properties and forces controlling them. And that there is a possibility that a Middle Earth similar to what J.R.R. Tolkien wrote about could exsist in one of them.

I am too a person who sadly believes that Middle Earth, and the charaters that we care about deeply here at this forum have never exsisted. But I am a person who believes that there are places similar to this earth that exsist in our universe and in others (but I still don't know if I believe in universes other than ours right now). I think that it is completely possible that their could be a Earth type place somewhere out there in another universe (if other universes exsist), but I don't know.

My head feels like a blob of goo right now. And I don't even think I made any sense.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I agree with Elennar in the theory that alternate universes would branch out from out from our own. I believe that our universe would be the main universe and alternate universes would be created based on the choices we made in our own universe. For instance you come to a fork in the road, you go right, an alternate universe is created where you went left. The universe where you go left still has the same history as our world but it is changed by the fact that you went left. If at any time ME had existed the ME parallel universe would be in the same time frame as ourselves.(critisicm welcome, feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong)

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe that our universe would be the main universe and alternate universes would be created based on the choices we made in our own universe.

This is a rather contradictory statement which opens up a deeper philosophical idea. If we decide to go right in that fork in the road, how do we know that we are not the one's who are creating a new universe, while the old universe you decides to go left. It is a paradoxical question that cannot be answered. If the theory of mutliple universes is correct than there can be no "main" universe discernable.

[Lord of Angmar]

In this world, it is signals from our eyes, in ME it is slightly more complicated since our eyes cannot actually see what is happening. The key point though, is that we use the same parts of our brains to imagine middle earth. I see no difference since I doubt the reality of our world. (Mans)

Mans brings up a good point here. This topic I fear could be endlessly debated (from scientific, philosophical and religious angles): the topic of what constitutes and defines reality. For us it is simply seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and generally feeling, a combination of organic processes that take place within our bodies, as they react to stimuli around them. I choose to define reality as any thought, vision, feeling, idea or belief that is present in your mind, in which case if you truly believe that Middle Earth exists or existed, it does.

This is of course a giant digression from my original topic. My original intention was to arouse a debate about whether or not one's own ideas could be realized in a sense that we would consider 'physical' and 'real' within another universe or dimension, in which case Middle Earth as we (subjectively) view it in our minds could become a reality. In this instance I use reality in the recognizable physical sense. I think it could be the subject of much religious and philosophical debate (much less scientific since it cannot be proven by any modern means) about how our thoughts and minds affect the world around us, and how we are able to change and sculpt our own reality.

[ August 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

The key point though, is that we use the same parts of our brains to imagine middle earth. I see no difference since I doubt the reality of our world.

Well, we use our imaginations to imagine it, as it doesn't really exist, if that's what you mean.

As to the second part of that statement; I think I'll leave it up to you to decide, for yourself, whether or not the world is in fact real -- or whether you imagined it all, in which case you would of course be a super-genius of intellect unsurpassable [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. (Clearly I know that you are not imagining it, as I know for a surety that I exist as well. But then I am the only one who can know that for sure, if you want to think along these sort of wierd lines... =/)

No time right now to get into things here, but I will add this. The parallel universe theory is not proven, and we cannot at present say whether or not it is actually true. (Personally, I find it an unlikely idea; although I have never really gone into it in detail.)

These quantum physicists, you know... the notions they invent are often as varied, bizarre and wonderful as this and can be even more so. We cannot actually hold any of it in our hand. There is no doubt that this quantum stuff itself is real, but of the theory of actual other worlds -- when you think about it -- there is as yet nothing but the projection of theories, based upon possibilities.

These theories are not neccessarily correct. Actually, we could do with our own quantum physicist in here to explain all this stuff to us (not that we could understand it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]).

----
Hmmm... if I may ask a small observative question, what does this actually have to do with Tolkien's books anyway???

[Kaiserin]

Lord of Angmar: Am I correct in inferring that you opened this thread to discuss the probability - or at least, the feasibility - of the existence of ME in a parallel universe? I did read your initial post entirely, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] though I think you forgot to state your actual "thesis statement" (if I may call it that), thus, the participants of this thread may see this topic as irrelevant to Tolkien. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

If I understood the topic correctly, then I would say that it's an interesting subject to ponder; I have myself thought of the reasonability of Arda / Ea as a parallel to our existent universe, in a literary sense (Note: I used the word reasonability, and not possibility - there is a difference).

Attentive readers of Tolkien have observed the many similarities between Arda and Earth as we know it - flora, fauna, the position of the stars as seen from our corner of the cosmos, etc. We know that ME did not actually exist as a physical reality, and that its existence is not even logically, archaeologically or historically verifiable. It may then be possible to regard ME as a "fictional reality" in a parallel universe.

I doubt that there are actual parallel universes, i.e., I do not believe they are an actual physical or spiritual realities (to use LoA's words). But my mind is open to the concept for a literary or fictional sense. We know of course that the theory of a parallel universe has not been proven (and may never be proven, for that matter), but it is indeed an interesting concept.

Mans: I'm not sure if I understood your post correctly; I don't see it's relevance. Do you mean to say that reality is relative, or subjective? Please explain, if you think you must. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aethelwine]

Wauw, this is so cool! I mean, I'm really interested in this subject, so the fact that I can read about it, here, on the BD, I find is really cool.

But I do have a question: Why do most of you don't believe in a Parallel Universe?
It's true, there is no real evidence, non that you can hold in your hand, that is, that says that they exist. But there's also no evidence that says that the don't exist!
I believe that they exist. I always did. I don't understand why they wouldn't.

I believe in Parallel Universeses almost precisly the way that most people describe it here.

Parallel universes, to my mind, would "branch off" from this universe whenever any sort of choice is made. For every possible thing that could happen, there would be a parallel universe in which it did happen. Some would be almost identical to our universe, distinguished only by a small detail, while others would be totally different.

I agree with Elennar in the theory that alternate universes would branch out from out from our own. I believe that our universe would be the main universe and alternate universes would be created based on the choices we made in our own universe. For instance you come to a fork in the road, you go right, an alternate universe is created where you went left. The universe where you go left still has the same history as our world but it is changed by the fact that you went left. If at any time ME had existed the ME parallel universe would be in the same time frame as ourselves.(critisicm welcome, feel free to point out where you think I'm wrong)

I agree with this. Completely. Almost. There's one think that I don't agree with. And that's the point were TheSquireof Aragorn says that our universe is the main one, were all others divide from.
Why should our universe be the main one? I find this, to be honest, a bit egocentric (this is NOT a personal attack on Aragorn!!). That's also why I don't understand it when people think that our universe is the only one.
I find it egocentric, but maybe, when someone explains is reasons to me, I'll think otherwise.

But that's all a bit off-topic, isn't it? I love the idea of Middle Earth being a Parallel universe. I think that is really possible. Or at least an universe that is in some/most ways similar to ME. Why not? I like to think that way, I don't realy have a reason. Maybe it gives me comfort, to think that the world, and the people, that I've fallen in love with, really does exist. But that is just the way I think and feel, and everybody has the right to think the way he or she wants.

Aethelwine.

[Voronwe]

Let me briefly offer, if I may, the perspective of one humble Physics undergraduate (me) on the issue of parallel universes.

The idea of parallel universes has its origin in the branch of physics known as quantum mechanics. There are a number of natural processes concerned with elementary particles which have entirely random outcomes. For example we cannot predict whether any given radioactive nucleus will decay within a given time interval; we can only find the probability that it will do so. The idea is that every possible outcome takes place, but in separate, 'parallel', universes.

Let me say that as a Physicist I find this idea wholly useless. Occam's proverbial Razor simply cuts it to ribbons; if our explaination of the world doesn't require us to include a multitude of unreachable universes in addition to our own, then we need not do so. The "theory" (it is not a theory in the scientific sense of the word) makes no testable predictions and mathematically explains no previously unaccounted for phenomena, and is thus, to Physics, utterly useless.

Recently the idea of parallel universes has resurfaced in the context of M-Theory, the controversial successor to String Theory. I am not familiar with M-Theory, but I know of no experiment which could be performed, even in principle, which would either prove or disprove the existence of parallel universes. So at present such ideas reside firmly in the realms of speculation.

The idea of parallel universes, with the added ingredient of the possibility of interaction between them, is certainly attractive in a fictional setting. I have read several excellent books which make use of it to good effect. But, quite frankly, the idea simply does not appeal to me, or seem necessary, as part of a mathematical explaination of the Physical world. Faced with a lack of evidence, or even the possibility of evidence, I have to say I simply don't believe it.

To tie the discussion, very tentatively, back to the original subject of the thread, I do not think that, even if we hypothetically accept the 'existence' of parallel universes, that a Middle Earth-like universe could ever exist. This is because the Physical laws which allow the existence of parallel universes in the first place would surely have to apply within any given parallel universe, and the laws of Physics simply do not apply in Middle Earth.

Back to Tolkien, I hope.

[drigel]

Finally a thread that better defines the theory that I was trying to spew out in earlier threads. Extremely interesting and well thought out. Thanks guys - I again have a reason to slack off at work and ponder the deeper Tolkien musings. This is a topic to me that combines both physics and anthopology - and it may turn out that both are, by their very nature, unquantifiable. Or, at the very least, something that we are hundreds of years away from being able to comprehend and map out. In most cases of extrapolation - what we think we know now is so way off the mark, that reaching a deduction from the information we have now is really kind of futile.

I think that I tend to agree with the idea that the only thing that bridges the time/space gap between our reality and possible others is our aesthetics/imagination. There is a source of that spark. What is is, where it came from, and where does it lead to is the question. I also think that what we know from our own history only reaches back about 10,000 years, and we as a species go back much farther than that.

I hope this causes more action on this thread I love this subject and I dont want to see it die off. Play on playahs!

[Lord of Angmar]

I presume (as do most of us) that it is outside the realm of possibility to believe that Middle Earth does exist in some corner of time or some other dimension, in any sort of recognizable or physical sense. Voronwe, who is obviously more well-informed about quantum mechanics, basic physics and the likes, made a good point when he said that Middle Earth is not grounded in the laws of physics. It is a realm of magical deeds and powers which we assume could never be realized in a physical sense.

I do, however, believe in the existence of parallel universes, although I think it would it would be more accurate to describe them as unparallel since what makes them different is that something happening differently, an event horizon is altered (I believe this is a correct term, but I am not sure). Just because

if our explaination of the world doesn't require us to include a multitude of unreachable universes in addition to our own, then we need not do so

which I find to be a valid point, does not mean that these universes do not and cannot exist. The theory may be 'useless' for the present, in that we cannot test it, study it or act on it, but that does not mean it is entirely illogical or unreasonable to believe that at some future point it might be tested. After all, a hundred years ago the top minds of science literally thought it an impossible task for man to reach the moon.

I propose that we drop the physical angle on this thread, as it does nothing but steer us away from Tolkien. Perhaps my original proposal was a bit nonsensical, as I personally cannot conceive of a Middle Earth existing physically in another universe or dimension.

Professor Tolkien created a beautiful, elaborate world, with rich characters, vast new landscapes and a deep, ever-growing history. In that sense it is a 'real' place. It is discussed by thousands, loved by millions, and always felt deeply when reading the works of JRR Tolkien. Because we cannot see it or interact with it in any way that humans consider to be 'real', we do not define it as such. But who knows? Maybe in the afterlife a man will come upon JRR Tolkien's world and be 'tricked' into believing that what he sees is reality, or maybe in some far distant corner of the universe, or through a black hole, when and if Mankind has the power and the technology to travel the galaxy or even the universe, someone will come across a world that to their eyes is their own subjective vision of JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth. The possibilities of our own universe are endless, and no one truly knows if one of its many untold powers is bringing one's innermost fantasies into a physical 'reality'.

[Måns]

On my super-intelligence, yes that thought has stricken me many many tiems before and I ahve worked hard to convince the rest of the world about it, not yet succesfully, for some obscure reason [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img].

I will not offer my opinion open the pure physics partof this discussion since I haven't even started college yet, far less university and hold my self, for once, not learned enough to join the discussion seriously. I will instead explain what I meant about my somewaht confused post, guess that's a downside of making posts too late. Anyway, my point is that you all distinguish reality and imagination. What is reality? All we know of it is what we feel, hear, smell, see or taste. Our perception of these is quite simple. Our eye, for example, sees something, translates what it sees to a signal that is sent to the brain's vision centre. At that stage, you see what your eye sees. What happens when you read something? The signal isn't sent by the eye, you recieve it in the same centre and it is shown to you in exactly the same way, but vaguer. You say that teh wall in front of you exists, when you imagine the slightly larger wall of Minas Tirith, what difference is it? Imagination is the same thing as reality, in our minds. IF every cognitive being ceased to exist, I would deem that the universe was no more, if I could. None are there who sense it, thus it is not since what we sense si the only possible definition of reality

Måns (Don't forget the circle above a in Måns! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Copy, paste!)Måns is pronounced like latin mons, mountain.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Incidentally, Mans, our of interest like: if a tree falls in a forest....

Your head is full of dreams, Mans. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I don't know if I can speak for everyone here, but I can't really have much time for this kind of thinking I'm afraid; it's so pointless. Is it easier to believe that what you see in front of you actually exists, and that you're a Man with the mind that you know yourself to have, or that you're really an all encompassing intellect alone in the world -- a being that has dreamed up not only everything in history, but hinders its own super-intellectualness from itself and believes itself to be a normal man??

Anyway. Basically, what I will say on this the difference between reality and imagination: one exists independantly of the mind, and one doesn't. One is real.. (I can't believe I'm saying this, you know... =]) One is merely your thoughts.

Are your thoughts reality? No. They do not really exist, but are projected imaginings that your mind creates to think about things. Imagination, after all, is what makes us as humans special; the skill that we have to look ahead is what makes us so brainy, really.
Hmmm....
Jokes aside, Mans, have you ever considered that you might in fact be insane? =]

At any rate, all that (^) should be perfectly clear and obvious to anyone not of this persuasion. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] This really is philosophical thinking at its most irritatingly stupid (absolutely no offencive connotational material intended to any parties, just voicing my opinion on it please... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] =/). I really can't be bothered with it at all, you know.

---
By the way, Voronwe -- thanks for the info, it'h quite helpful in all this.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Mans,if you're saying what I think you might be saying, if I imagine Middle Earth real, then it actually is real? Or, for example, if I believe in parallel universes, then they do exist and if the person next to me does not then they don't exist for him/her?

I'm sorry if I am totally off track, but it was just a thought.

Now, if we pretend that Middle Earth actually does exist, let's put the theory of parallel universes inside Arda: in one (the main) universe, Frodo took the ring, in another, he did not etc. etc.

This thread is actually the first time I hear about this 'parallel universe' theory, but it certainly intrigued me and I will try to fill myself in on it as soon as I can.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say is that if Arda is a 'real parallel universe', then other, alternative universes can branch off from it. It's like if one turns left at the crossroads, and then comes to another crossroads and turns left again. What if s/he turned right at the first crossroad and left at the second or vice versa?

Pheww... I'm confusing myself. Not bad for a 14-year-old thought, huh? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

-Aredhel

[Måns]

Hmm for insanity, I refer it back to the one who considers another to be that. I don't see the need to see this as pointless, you just state that there si a world outside the self without proving it, there is absolutely no proof that this world exists except what we sense. Indeed, our self image is built upon it, as is our view of the world. You see, there is no difference between my memories and my now, nor is it between ME and my now. Purely technicly, they are all made up in the brain. Basicly they are the same.

What I am saying is not that ME is more real than we think, rather that our world is less real than we think, or both at the same time. I am not bragging about some super intelligence (taht I certainly have got [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]) I'm just saying that it si so for all of us, not only for me. If you don't sense the world in a way that I don't, that is without your brain, then it is so.

Hooray for us fourteen year olds Aredhel Idril Telcontar! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Lush]

*tsk* Gwaihir, your thinking is so linear.

Not all of us can adopt the sort of worldview propagated by Måns (I certainly can't, not here on earth, at least), but just because we "don't have time for it," doesn't mean we should knock it, smiley face or no smiley face in close proximity to the word "stupid."

Anyway, defining reality is impossible when you think about it, especially when we get philisophy and religion into the fray (but we won't right now, right? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Back to the actual topic: I am still as unsettled as I am fascinated by the theory brought forth by Lord of Angmar. And I still do not understand how Tolkien's ideas, for example, could be connected to the creation of parallel universes, but I am willing to try.

[TheSquireof Aragorn]

I personally do not believe that a parralel universe could exist. Just thinking about it, my mind cannot possibly fathom different universes being created by our very thoughts or choices. Now to throw in a little religon, as a Christian I cannot possibly accept the idea that each and every human has the capabilities to create entire universes! I know we are debating this in a scientific and philosophical manner, but I'm not sure I can believe it from a scientific or philosphical perspective.(A bit contradictory from my earlier post, but I've given a bit more thought to it)

The idea of parallel universes intrigues me. I'm not sure whether they really exist or not, but for some reason I just seem to feel that it'd be neat if they did. I don't think they'd be connected to each other in any sort of way, though; no traveling between them, etc. like you read about in some stories, maybe even no being able to prove that they exist.

But this is something I ponder sometimes (not really based on science, just my own thoughts): if parallel universes do exist, then there'd be an infinite number of them, which would mean that there would be an infinite number of possibilities for things to exist within them. So there could be worlds that are absolutely nothing like the world that we know, or there could be worlds that are exactly the same with some minute difference that you would never be able to find...a tree that has one less leaf, or something like that.

Now suppose you write a story about a girl named Ann. According to you, she's only something made up by your imagination, and she doesn't actually exist. But isn't it possible that somewhere in one of those universes among the infinite possibilities, she would exist? Not necessarily because you somehow or another by writing the story and thinking of her actually created her, but just that it's merely a coincidence that you wrote a story about her and she also exists somewhere. Going along with the same idea, there could be a Middle Earth out there somewhere, with everything just like it is in the books, and there could also be millions of alternate ME's that aren't like what happened in the books. Again, not because the writing of the books 'created' this universe, but because it just happened to already be there before they were written. If you've ever read the 'Myst' books, there's a similar idea in them...they 'write' these books to link to other worlds, and it would seem like their writing the books is like their creating the world that the book links to, but they don't actually create it, it's already there, they just find it through the specific descriptions that they've written.

I'm not saying that I think that this is the case or that there's even a high probability of it happening, but I don't think such possibilities should ever be completely ruled out until it can be proven beyond doubt one way or the other. It's not like it'll ever have any effect on our lives, it's not like we'll all turn into fan-fiction characters and magically warp there, it's just something that's interesting to think about when you're bored. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] For me, anyway. o_O

[Lord of Angmar]

This is the idea of infinite variables. If there are infinite possibilities for the creation of a new universe, then there is the possibility of worlds that are not like our own and ones that are almost exactly identical. Who knows if someday it will be within the realm of possibility to prove their existence? Read Michael Crichton's Timeline if you want an idea of the correlation between our world, quantum mechanics and parallel universes. Anything is possible.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Who knows if someday it will be within the realm of possibility to prove their existence?

Ever heard of this one, then?

I think, therefore I am.

It's rather a good one to keep around in discussions like this, I find =].

Lush; as I stated explicitly in my post, I was not 'knocking' anyone. Simply discussing. (You may notice that Mans himself, to whom it was directed, seems to have taken it friendly-ly as it was intended [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].) My opinion on Mans's kind of reasoning (again an explicit statement: I am discussing, and not hating...), i.e. of there not being a distinction between our mental thoughts and what is real is as I said I felt it to be. I can be really quite imaginitive, of course; I would not be here otherwise, and would not make the often lengthy and thoughtful posts I do =]; but still, I am a rigid common-senser when I need to be. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

At any rate, though. If my thinking is 'linear', Lush, then yours can be described as 'daft'. A significant proportion of this conversation indeed lies in the realm of wonderful fantasy. That is not to say this thread is unworthwhile -- but it is, partly, on the rather ridiculous side.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

As Voronwe has previously said, Physics considers two kinds of parallel universes, and I think that in this thread both kinds are being mixed up.

The first kind comes from pure quantum mechanics theory, when trying to avoid the Uncertainty of the Heisenberg principle in the Universe. There are two ways of seeing the behaviuor of quantum particles:

1.- the properties of the particles are not defined (not that we cannot measure them, they are not defined) and all taht we can do is express them with the aid of probability. This pont of view is hold by most of the Physicists, and was most defended by the Copenhagen school, lead by Bohr.

2.- the properties of the particles are defined in each one of the parallel Universes, but we don't know in which Universe we actually are until we measure its property. If a particle has a probability of 1/3 of being in place A and 2/3 of being in place B, this means that there exist 3 parallel universes, in one of the the particle is in place A and in the other 2 is in place B.

This kind of parallel universe is the one that has been mostly debated here, but for me, as a Physicist and as a Catholic, this parallel Universes don't make sense. As a physicist, as Voronwe has said, because they are useless. And as a Catholic, because free will and soul are impossible in parallel universes. For this second reason, for me it is also impossible to consider Middle-Earth as a parallel universe. If so, there should be millions of 'Middle-Earth' parallel universes (one in which Bilbo never gets the Ring, one in which the Gandalf does'nt scape form Saruman, one in which Frodo is killed at Weathertop, ... and so on).

The second kind of parallel universes (known as universe bubbles), as Voronwe has already said, has come as a result of the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. In this theories, the Universe requires something like 11 dimensions to be explained. As we only can notice 4 of them, this theory says that in the other dimensions there could exist a number of different universes.
In my opinion, this second kind of parallel Universe, could be an explanation for the current situation of the Undying Lands. They are not inside our four-dimensional universe, but are still inside the 11-dimensional universe.

[Lord of Angmar]

Please explain more about these 'universe bubbles', they sound very interesting [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . You say that they come as a combination of the quantum mechanics and relativity theories. I was under the impression that quantum mechanics and relativity conflicted in such a way that the two theories could in fact never both be true. Correct me if I am wrong, but I was under that impression after reading Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time, as well as a few others.

That is indeed an interesting theory, the Undying Lands being eleven-dimensional. A strange one, but interesting nonetheless. I suppose it could in a way rationalize why mortals cannot live there for long. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lush]

Gwaihir, since I didn't express any allegiance to a particular brand of thinking (be it "daft," "linear," circular, triangular, square, or oval) in the post to which you are responding to, I am inclined to believe that you couldn't be bothered to read my post in its entirety. I suppose you, once again, didn't have the time? (This is going back to your previous statement that you don't have time for certain kinds of thinking)

Amarie, your post confused and, at the same uncomfortable time, enlightened me. You've articulated what I've been trying to say for a few days on this thread: free will would be missing from a parallel universe, which is the chief reason the idea makes me uncomfortable in the first place.

So the Undying Lands do not fit into the four-dimensional universe we are used to perceiving, but they are, at the same time, inside the eleven-dimensional universe? I don't know if that makes sense to me, because wouldn't that mean that they are, in fact, situated in the other seven dimensions that we cannot notice? See what I mean?...Ok, maybe it's nigh time to admit that I'm an idiot when it comes to physics and leave it at that.

Also, going with the thought in the previous paragraph: what would the whole dimension-thing make of Tuor?

...Gah. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Tolkien was not a physicist, and wish to leave it at that.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Lord of Angmar, you are right in that relativity, as formulated by Einstein, is a classical theory and therefore directly conflicts with quantum mechanics.

Since then, physicists are working in the so-called G.U.T.s (Great Unification Theories) which try to explain all the forces in the universe with only one mathematical model. In order to do so, these theories require the combination of quantum mechanics and relativity. The Unification Theory (the M-theory) has not been formulated yet, but there are some aproximations to it. In all of them, the Universe requires more than four dimensions (I think the number of required dimensions is eleven).

Then the question is, if we can only notice four of these eleven dimensions, are there other 'universes' inside the Universe, in the other seven dimensions that we cannot notice?
One possible answer to this is that our four-dimensional universe is only one universe bubble (or universe membrane) inside the eleven-dimensional Universe. And that there exist other universe bubbles inside this 11-dimensional universe.

Stephen Hawking has written a new book where he explains this ('The Universe in a Nutshell') but in my opinion, this second book is even more difficult to understand than the Brief History of Time. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Linking this to Tolkien [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] what I suggested was that Ea is the eleven-dimensional Universe. At the beggining, the Undying Lands were inside our four-dimensional bubble. And that after the end of the Second Age, the Undying Lands are other universe bubble (but they are still part of Ea).

I hope that all this makes sense, at least to some of you [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Amarie of the Vanyar ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Lush:

So the Undying Lands do not fit into the four-dimensional universe we are used to perceiving, but they are, at the same time, inside the eleven-dimensional universe? I don't know if that makes sense to me, because wouldn't that mean that they are, in fact, situated in the other seven dimensions that we cannot notice? See what I mean?

Yes, that is what I suggested. But Aman can also be a four-dimensional 'universe' (it doesn't need to be converted into a seven-dimensional universe).
Let's consider that our universe is in the 0 coordinates for all the seven dimensions that we cannot notice. Then Aman can be in a coordinate different to 0 in any of this seven dimensions. In this case, it would be unreachable for men, but could be reached by somebody that can move along this dimension (the Straight Road).

Also, going with the thought in the previous paragraph: what would the whole dimension-thing make of Tuor?

I am sorry, but I don't understand this question. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

This is very interesting, Amarie. If I understand right, then our own universe would be the perceived 'nucleus' or interior, although it would certainly not be the centrifocal part since it would be the least complex of the dimensional levels. I own a copy of Universe in a Nutshell but have only looked through it for the briefest of moments. Perhaps another read would be interesting.

The possibilities of our own universe are nearly infinite and certainly mind-boggling. An uncountable number of galaxies, each containing their own millions and billions of stars, each with the possibility of having orbiting planets with the possibility of life sustenance.

Given the inifinity of possible genetic combinations, there seems no limit to what sort of life there is out there; even creatures resembling Elves or hobbits [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Just because it now seems an impossibility to search the far corners of the universe, does not mean that it always will be an impossibility.

I keep having to remind myself that this is not a physics forum and that I am often straying from the subject of Tolkien. Within the context of Amarie's (and Stephen Hawking's) proposed 'universe bubble' idea, I cannot conceive of Professor Tolkien's world existing in a real or physical sense, unless the power of the human mind is far greater than we imagine. We may never know if the human mind can have any physical influence on other universes or dimensions.

I agree that the idea of parallel universes is very disconcerting, but my idea of free will is defined as the exertion of power by an entity over another entity. In most cases, it is an exertion of power by a human being or animal over their physical surroundings. To my mind, when a parallel universe 'splits' off from our own, it would create a separate entity acting on its own intuitions, in which case free will would still be a valid idea.

Where am I going with this? I am not sure. Whenever I partake in discussions such as this, I always feel that I am scratching (or maybe attempting to scratch would be a better parallel) at the surface of something far vaster and more complicated than I will ever conceive of in my lifetime (although hopefully someday Mankind will be able to conceive of it). For the moment, our own universe is enough to baffle me, let alone the existence of other 'bubbles' which humans cannot even comprehend. And at the moment Professor Tolkien's works are fascinating and beautiful enough without thinking about an actual physical existence.

I am off to pick up the Two Towers DVD. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Adieu!
-Angmar

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Lush]

In regards to Tuor, though this is very off-topic, I was just trying to understand how he would have been able to perceive Aman, considering the fact that it is hidden in the other seven dimensions.

Once again, this only proves, once and for all, that Tolkien wasn't a physicist, and that these questions did not concern him a whole lot (well, especially in regards to parallel universes).

[Elennar Starfire]

That is an excellent summary for someone who owes all of their knowledge to this thread and to Star Trek, Elennar.

Whew, it's good to know that I didn't seem completely stupid.

Actually, we could do with our own quantum physicist in here to explain all this stuff to us (not that we could understand it ).

I have gotten into the ideas of quantum mechanics, and started reading a few books on the subject. It is very confusing and I don't think I can explain anything right now, but maybe when I understand it a little better myself I can try to explain it. I recommend reading Alice in Quantumland for a beginning, as it is probably about as simple as a book about quantum mechanics can be.

Why should our universe be the main one? I find this, to be honest, a bit egocentric (this is NOT a personal attack on Aragorn!!). That's also why I don't understand it when people think that our universe is the only one.

Yes, it's like thinking that the earth is the center of the universe, or that there is no other life in the universe.

I do not think that, even if we hypothetically accept the 'existence' of parallel universes, that a Middle Earth-like universe could ever exist. This is because the Physical laws which allow the existence of parallel universes in the first place would surely have to apply within any given parallel universe, and the laws of Physics simply do not apply in Middle Earth.

But could there not be a universe so different from our own that the laws of physics are different? I am still quite ignorant of quantum mechanics, and physics, and all that stuff,(I'm only 14) so please tell me if that sounds really stupid.

Amarie, your post confused and, at the same uncomfortable time, enlightened me. You've articulated what I've been trying to say for a few days on this thread: free will would be missing from a parallel universe, which is the chief reason the idea makes me uncomfortable in the first place.

But why do we see ourselves as we are in this universe, why are we not in another? I don't mean physically, I mean mentally. (I'm even confusing myself here!) This to me means that there is free will, that our choices dictate the path our soul follows, and which of the infinite possibilities actually exists for us, mentally. (EEK that makes very little sense to me, I have no idea where it came from!)

I actually have a copy of A Brief History of Time, I shall have to read it soon. Currently I'm stuck on The Strange Story of the Quantum. I can't read much at a time, it gives me headaches.

[Rumil]

To bring this down to a less 'physicsy' level,

I'm sure that most have noticed that many sci-fi writers use the 'alternate universe' theory as a plot device. Michael Crichton has been mentioned but I remember reading one sci-fi novel (probably sometime in the 80s) which mentions Middle Earth. In this story, a 'ship' is invented which allows travel betwen the universes, but as there are an infinity of alternate universes (in this book at least), the ship must be guided by the thoughts of the crew. It turns out that their subconcious minds draw them to universes based on popular books, one of them being Lord of the Rings. Sadly they don't land as they consider it too dangerous and lacking in medical facilities! (I think they end up in Barsoom instead). Does anyone else remember this one?

On another tack entirely, does anyone read Ian M Banks? I'm sure his hyper-powerful Culture starship 'minds' could terraform a planet into Middle Earth and do the necessary genetic engineering to create its inhabitants.

As Pratchett says, 'beware the trousers of time' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]