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Old 09-12-2003, 05:23 PM   #1
tinewelt
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Ring Aragorn vs. Denethor....???

just pondering another what if question....

When Denethor is going mad and talking with gandalf in Rath Dinen, he says
Quote:
So! With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me. But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, i will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity.
IF, for some reason Minas Tirith has stood and the battle won with Denethor still alive, what would have been the outcome? Does the people of Gondor follow their lord, or show loyalty to their king? There is much evidence to prove Aragorns claim, but I do not believe Denethor (because he said it) would have relinquished his command to him by choice. He showed no reverence or respect for the line of the kings. I guess it would also depend on which way Faramir would choose, his king or his father. Also, (if the people choose Aragorn) what is to be come of Denethor? He obviously could not resume the title of Steward. Would he be exiled, imprisoned or put to death? ( these are options that are hard to consider, but I do not believe Denethor would have continued to live under Aragorns rule, no matter what his status. Any thoughts?
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Old 09-12-2003, 09:37 PM   #2
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This is a good question! I wonder too whether or not Denethor would surrender the throne if he survived. I suppose the easist answer to give is "the point is moot. He didn't, he died."

Still...

If Aragorn came out victorious in the war, then would it not shatter the evil and fey mood that Denethor possessed via the Palantir? Yet, it still seemed that the attitude was not one of devotion to the true King. Am I just thinking only of the movie, or did the quote "Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no King" originate from Boromir more than just in the movie?
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Old 09-12-2003, 10:13 PM   #3
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I think that quote was actually just in the movie, Knight. So it can be disregarded. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Boromir would by no means have said that anyway; put it down to another of the woeful character warpings of Peter Jackson's desecration.

I should think that the people would have mostly followed Aragorn, after his victory, his true person revealed and his work in the Houses of Healing. Everyone who knew he was made it pretty well known who he was at the end.
Quote:
For thy king is victorious...
Course, anything could have happened. But I'd have thought that the overwhelming feeling would be with the King, whether or Denethor recovered sufficiently to hand over rule or not (one imagines him being locked up if he didn't, and Faramir taking his place anyway).
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Old 09-12-2003, 10:23 PM   #4
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I agree. The evidence is overwhelming that Aragorn is a true king. I believe the people, and faramir would have followed Aragorn. AS for Denethor, I am not quite sure what I believe would have happened. HE has to much pride to apologize and accept a position less that what he has already obtained for years upon years. probably imprisonment or exile, which would be accepted by Faramir, I believe.
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Old 09-13-2003, 02:46 PM   #5
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I think there's a good chance that Denethor would submit to Aragorn, after all he wouldn't have much support if he stood against Aragorn, and would possibly have become a figure of ridicule or scorn. It would then be probable that Denethor wouldn't want to hang about Minas Tirith for much longer and might even go wandering for the rest of his days, in some sadness.
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Old 09-13-2003, 03:00 PM   #6
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I have often wondered that too, i dont think Denethor would have accepted the role of Prince of Ithilien that Faramir took, he was far more power-hungry and proud. It would have been a very interesing scenario tho, could we have seen another Arvedui scenario being refused the kingship or dread to think another Kin-strife??
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Old 09-13-2003, 08:19 PM   #7
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Denethor plainly told Gandalf that it would take a lot to prove Aragorn was from the line of Elendil. And even then, he said, it was a ragged line of tattered kings or something like that...showing he even had disrespect and contempt for the line of Isildur. I wonder if that was before his madness began...?
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Old 09-13-2003, 10:58 PM   #8
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Hmm. What if Denethor had lived...interesting question. As horrifying as "The Pyre of Denethor" is, it's hard to hide that it's incredibly convenient for the plot that he should check out at that particular time.

Denethor has been slowly going under since his favourite son Boromir died, and has been looking into his Palantir far more than is healthy (not that any Palantir-gazing can really be called healthy, except maybe for Aragorn). He certainly is still powerful; witness those first few scenes with Gandalf and Pippin. But even so, his grasp is getting weaker and he won't see it - when they first arrive in Gondor, it's already a ghost town, and men speak much more of Faramir than they do of Denethor, and certainly the impression is that if they had to pick one to follow, it would be Faramir. Why not? Denethor doesn't seem to have gotten out in ages, whereas Faramir is still fighting in the midst of them. So in the end, had everyone lived, they would likely have gone where Faramir went, that is, to Aragorn.

That being said, I can't see Denethor living very long in any scenario. Even had he been prevented from burning himself, or had never thought to do it, he probably wouldn't survive Aragorn's arrival long. He must know in his heart that Aragorn's claim is just; Denethor does have the longsight, after all, and he's certainly no fool. He would be able to read the truth in Aragorn's mind as soon as he saw him.

So Denethor might have built his pyre later, after people had followed Faramir to join up with Aragorn. Or even had he managed to quell the people through the remains of his power, the knowledge that the true king really had returned and that the past was gone would be eating him up. One way or the other, either of "breaking up" - just getting so depressed that his body couldn't maintain itself any more - or through a more active method, he would have died.
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Old 09-13-2003, 11:05 PM   #9
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I think it did occur before his madness set in. With the Palantir, he surely seen and heard of aragorn before the seige of gondor and the incident with faramir. Also, i believe that denethor already knew in his heart that Aragorn was the true king, and also that Aragorn may be able to heal faramir. I think he did what he did to save himself from having to step down in front of his people, which could be embarassing and shameful for him if gandalf revealed his words upon the steps of Rath Dinen.( if gondor survived, which was doubtful in his eyes) As for the kin-strife, I do not believe that it would have been taken that far. I do believe that he could have been executed, as in the case of Eol the dark elf in Gondolin. But Aragorn and Faramirs hearts are true and forgiving. I do not believe Denethor would have died unless Aragorn was left with no choice. thats just opinion though. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 09-14-2003, 02:37 PM   #10
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Indeed Denethor knew Aragorn from before, from the time when he, incognito under the name of Thorongil, had served Denethor's father Ecthelion. Denethor was jealous of Thorongil, because
Quote:
" ...he was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father."
Quote:
" Later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him."
(Appendix A , The Stewards)
So Denethors resentment went a long time back!

[ September 14, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]
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Old 09-15-2003, 06:09 PM   #11
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Sting

Just to put a little faith in Denthor, i think perhaps things could have been much better, had the Battle ended Denethor lived. There isnt much hope that he would have snapped out of it, but with such bold counsilors as Gandalf and Imrahil and his son, perhaps he could have been persuaded. You have to give him a bit of slack, though. It was natural to distrust some ranger he had never met in true guise that had, from his point of veiw usurped the love of his father and his people. Maybe he could have seen the light, though, had Aragorn revealed his true glory as he did with Eomer. perhaps he would have rallied behind Aragorn in the end...
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:56 PM   #12
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Sting

He had been deluded and poisoned mentally and spiritually by saroun via the palantir.

In addition, he knew, I believe, this 'ranger of the north ' was the warrior fromerly known as Thorongil. He was already ill-disposed toward Aragorn/Arnor and prideful far before he became Steward.

So I think had he survived there are 2 likely scenarios:

he would still have killed himself, perhaps more privately, after breaking the staff of the stewards on his knee and castigating the Gondorians...

or


he would have left in a snit, bitter and still likely to kill himself or go the way of saruman.

Perhaps he would have journeyed to Rauros and said farewell to Boromir and jumped.

It is pretty much impossible to see Denethor receive healing from Aragorn or anyone.
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:32 AM   #13
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I was thinking about this today when i seen this in ROTK....
Quote:
Gandalf it was that last spoke to Faramir ere he rode east. "do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness, " he said. "you will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you , Faramir , and will remember it ere the end. Farewell!
I think this is an obvious foresight of gandalf, percieving that Faramir would be needed to convince Denethor of Aragorns claim, and to also help in the task of getting Denethor to step down willingly and in good graces of the king. I guess that Faramir is the real key to this situation.
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Old 09-18-2003, 11:19 AM   #14
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Question

I agree with Kalimac and lindil, there is no way the relationship between Denethor and Aragorn could have been mended. Denethor was too proud to hand over the rule of Gondor to anyone, regardless of lineage or battlefield prowess. While the general populous may have accepted Aragorn as their king, Denethor, already teetering on insanity, would become even more bitter, perhaps to the point of suicide.

And, all insanity aside, remember that Denethor had plenty of justification to deny Aragorn the crown. Gondor had survived for 975 years under the Ruling Stewards, and no one actually believed the King would one day return--this was at best a fairy tale. Denethor, a loremaster in his own right, knew that the line of Anarion was dead, as Earnur the last king of Gondor had been slain by the Witch-King, and was childless. Furthermore, the line of Isildur was already rejected by the Dunedain of Gondor as having a valid claim to its throne, as Ardevui the Last-King in Fornost made the claim on the death of the childless King Ondoher of Gondor. Gondor's reply to Ardevui's claim was:

Quote:
'The Council of Gondor answered: "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs solely to the heirs of Meneldil, son of Anárion, to whom Isildur relinquished this realm. In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the sons only; and we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor."
In the mind of Denethor, who was versed in this history, there was not a man alive who had a valid claim to the throne of Gondor. He would yield to no one.
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Old 09-19-2003, 05:04 PM   #15
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I think that the words Boromir said at the Council, "Gondor has no King. Gondor needs no King." could have actually originated from Denethor. After all, the latter probably was jealous of, and hated, Aragorn/Thorongil for quite a long time, and passed on his suspicions to his son. Denethor was also bitter about the fact that Faramir, the "black sheep" of teh family, had inherited the Numenorean blood, rather than Boromir who Denethor loved. I don't think that jealousy affected Boromir, but that resentment probably affected him.

As for Denethor's eventual fate had Aragorn defeated Sauron, knowing Tolkien, Aragorn would have healed Denethor, and let him go wherever he wanted. Tolkien was the kind of man who wanted to believe that everyone had some good left in him, and Denethor did. Perhaps Aragorn's healing would have had a sort of "Bilbo Effect." Denethor would have gone off wherever he wanted and peacefully died.
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Old 09-20-2003, 07:16 AM   #16
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There are 2 cases I think would happen:

1. Denethor would submit to the kingship of Aragorn and remain as his Steward until his own death (maybe after Aragorn's "healing"). Aragorn showed manifestations of his kingship during the war which are strong enough to disregard. It would as if tell Denethor "Do you think I would (and can) do this if I were not the king?" Then Denethor would admit that Aragorn is the king... a happy ending.

OR...

2. Denethor would still harden his heart and refuse to submit to Aragorn.
a. He will leave Gondor and go somewhere else (this one I doubt).
b. He will still burn himself on a pyre or commit any other form of suicide just so he would not be "under" Aragorn's rule.
c. The people of Gondor themselves will kill him (kinda brutal, however...so I also doubt it).

Do I make sense? Or did cheering practice make me stupid? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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Old 09-27-2003, 11:38 AM   #17
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I think that Denethor would eventually submit himself to Aragorn and respect him. However I do believe this act would take a long long time.
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Old 09-28-2003, 02:05 PM   #18
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Arathor of Barahir, I highly doubt Denethor would submit to Aragorn. Given his insanity in the Pyre of Denethor, he'd be dragged to the dungeons screaming,"Wretch of the line of Isildur! Go back to the North!"

Hahahaha!
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:53 PM   #19
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The job of the stuard

The job of the stuard is to run the kingdom until the rightful king returns. Aragorn is the rightful king and he has returned. Problem solved.
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Old 04-27-2004, 09:04 PM   #20
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Who knows? Perhaps Aragorn's healing powers extend to mental healing. Denethor has been a good Steward in his time. His son's death and the Palantir between them have helped drive him over the edge, though, yes, he does have a long, long resentment.

In any case, I can't see Aragorn executing him. I find it easier to imagine the healing hands of the King managing to heal his mind.
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Old 04-28-2004, 12:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lindil
Perhaps he would have journeyed to Rauros and said farewell to Boromir and jumped.
That's probably the most likely out of all of them so far

but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 04-28-2004, 12:54 PM   #22
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I think Denethor would've ended up being killed anyway. I doubt highly that he would want to survive, because he looked into the palantir and saw what he thought to be the end of his family line, and of Gondor
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Old 05-03-2004, 08:03 AM   #23
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Ya I also think that the people of Arnor would have followed Aragorn as their King and Denethor would may have been exiled .

But certainly Denethor would not have agreed to give away the kingship to Elessar
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Old 05-04-2004, 06:53 AM   #24
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I think that a lot of the people of Gondor would have waited to see what Faramir's opinion was as they seemed to respect him more than Denethor. The people of all other good realms would have chosen Aragorn, he helped Rohan, the Hobbits that matter love him and Imrahil accepts him.

Aragorn is the one.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:35 PM   #25
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Guinivere's post contained the key information for me. Given that Denethor had had years to perfect & enrich his distrust, jealousy, pride, and covetousness, he would have had a difficult time turning over his stewardship even without the added and very potent influence of the palantir. Denethor had fallen into a rigid, conservative and decadent approach toward ruling Gondor. This is described by Gandalf in "The Last Debate":
Quote:
'Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?" said Imrahil. "That would be no new counsel," said Gandalf. "Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor? But no! I said this would be prudent. I do not counsel prudence. . . ."
Denethor had staked all on this approach and would have lost the city, and all else, quite quickly had not Gandalf, Imrahil, etc., come to Gondor's aid.

There is another quote revealing Denethor's mind in this matter. From "The Pyre of Denethor":
Quote:
"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught : neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."
So, add up all the above quotes, throw in the palantir, & then consider the effect of all this occurring slowly over a long time, and it seems pretty clear that Denethor would have been unable to come to terms with the fact that for all his wisdom and Numenorean sightedness, he had turned out to be the "wizard's" pupil (Sauron's) and failed as both ruler and father. Unless . . .

I'd like to think, and this could naturally follow given what we know of the characters & Tolkien, that Faramir would have been the only possible vehicle for Denethor to redeem himself. It is touchingly ironic, since Denethor had demeaned his devoted son for so long, and even sent Faramir on a suicide mission. The only thing that could have saved Denethor was love--Faramir's love, which would certainly have been freely given to his father. Would Denethor have chosen to accept it? I'd like to think so. Denethor would have come to the breaking point, surrendered to acceptance of Faramir's love, then faded away peacefully on his regular bed, and not a firey pyre.
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Old 05-05-2004, 03:39 PM   #26
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Shield Good question

Kalimac, Denethor was probably started going mad when Ecthelion died. Since, you had this "Thorongil" who was supposedly the King of Gondor, and Denethor was worried about himself being the heir of his father, thats when he started to look in the palantir. He slowly declined then when his wife Finduilas died, I do agree he rapidly declined when Boromir died. Denethor saw Boromir as Gondor's last hope when he died everything just went down hill, the true "breaking point" for me was when Faramir was wounded and he thought he was going to die, I think that was the point where it was just to much for Denethor to handle.

Gwaihir, yes PJ just love twisting around the characters. I agree Boromir would of never said "Gondor needs no king," through the whole journey Boromir wanted to have Aragorn come to Minas Tirith, and was content with the coming of the king to aid Gondor. Anything to help Gondor prevail was Boromir's concern, he was content with the sword coming back but he thought Gondor could only be saved if the ring was in his possession.

Denethor was a horrible father, but great man, and great commander. He was a good fighter and was wise in lore, much like his son Faramir. Thing wrong with Denethor was anyone who did not fight under his command he hated (perhaps the exclusion of Theoden, since Denethor put his hope into Rohan coming). You saw Beregond commit treason to save his loved captain Faramir, in the end Aragorn would of been restored king, I believe, no ifs ands or buts about it.
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Old 05-06-2004, 02:45 AM   #27
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Hi guys! Glad to see heated discussions beyond the Grave!

Hmm, Aragorn versus Denethor, huh? I place my bets on Aragorn!

But honestly, the theme of Kingship is so very often repeated that it is surprising that no-one sued for democracy yet. Take a look at the original Hobbit. Bard the Archer is the rightful king of Dale. Did he "executed" the other guy? No, he loaded the old man with dragon loot, which the latter promptly embezzled! Denethor is hardly a joker like the old man of Laketown, but Bard seems somewhat in character with Aragorn (Are they related?)

On the serious note, Denethor had the military under his fist. After Pelennor Fields, Aragorn could be credited with being one of the Captains that saved the day, but it is going to be pretty hard to prove his kingship over Gondor. Note: to the point of his death, his followers are still blindly following his orders. It might take a struggle to root him out...
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Old 05-08-2004, 11:49 AM   #28
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I believe that if Denethor survived, Aragorn would still have been made king. People liked Thorongil more than Denethor, and there would be a lot of people who remember who Thorongil was, if Aragorn made that claim. Also, I don't think people would feel much loyalty to a man who insisted that all was lost, when the battle turned out to be victorious. Once Aragorn showed the ring of Barahir, and Elrond brought the sceptre of Annuminas, as well as the whole "hands of a king = hands of a healer" business, people would realise that Aragorn is indeed the rightful king, whether Denethor wills it or no.

Also, Gandalf and Frodo would return as heroes, and they'd support Aragorn for king.
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Old 05-28-2004, 11:04 PM   #29
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I think that the people of Arnor would weigh more upon the judgement of Faramir BOUT THE REAL KING . And dont forget Denethor in his youth had been a great man resisting Mordor and the people thought he used to fight with the Dark Lord in his Tower.

But I too think that people would accept Elessar the King after the Tokens that he piossessed were shown to the people.
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Old 05-29-2004, 12:24 AM   #30
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Why don't we just look at it from the viewpoint of Aragorn defeating the Dark Lord. I think that hopefully the people of Gondor would have seen that Aragorn was most definitely a more effective leader just because he had ridded them of their greatest foe, and Denethor had not. So, yes, I believe if Denethor would have still been alive he would have stepped down just because of overwhealming public opinion (Now I know that Gondor was most definitely not a democratic society, but hopefully Faramir would have gotten on the side of Aragorn, and hopefully public opinion would have swayed on to the side of Aragorn). But then I also believe that he wouldn't have stepped down non-violently. He was very much a strongwilled character, and would have most likely ended up either being killed sent into exile in some way.
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Old 05-29-2004, 10:10 AM   #31
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I don't think Denethor would have stepped down, if he won(the Pelenor battle), his pride would have been even greater. No, I think he would rather commit suicide than to let Aragorn climb the throne.
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Old 05-30-2004, 12:04 PM   #32
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I don't think the"Gondor has no king" quote is direct but I am sure that Faramir says that Boromir was always asking his father how long it would be before a Steward could become king and Denethor more or less said never..... so I think Denethor would have "done the right thing" even if he had been mighty unhappy about it...because basically he is a numenorean ... I mean Imrahil doesn't question Aragorn's authority for a moment and he is of comparable status..... I think Denethor had become too passive to organise a rebellion but I think he would have been a blight on things..... I agree that he wouldn't have lasted long......
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Old 05-31-2004, 01:47 AM   #33
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There is no way that Faramir would betray his father for Aragorn. The man freely accepted a mission that was madness and would surely lead to his death! To think he would enter a debate involving Denethor on any side but that of his father is folly. And as has already been pointed out, Denethor had the military under his control to the point that they fought to the death to allow him to kill his son and himself.

The way I see it Denethor would have stepped down. After Pellenor Eomer would be squarely with Aragorn, and it's likely that Imrahil would have been, too. When Aragorn and Gandalf explain to Denethor that they are going to assault the Black Gate Denethor likely dismisses it as foolish, but since with the palantir he sees Sauron's might he likely thinks that Gondor has won the battle but the war is still lost and grants Faramir and anyone who wishes to follow him the right to chase a fool's death. Then when Aragorn, with Gandalf, Faramir, Eomer, Imrahil, and the Ring Bearer come riding back to Gondor victorius Denethor cedes control of the city to public sentiment, which would be to the one who the people think is the rightful King.

My guess is Denethor then goes to live in Ithilien to be near his only remaining son.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:29 AM   #34
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Aragorn, I don't think, would kill Denethor for not stepping down. It would probably escalate into a battle of words and Denethor would most probably end up either exiled or imprisioned, I believe Gandalf warned Pipin that it was dangerous to try and decieve Denethor but Aragorn is more dangerous and the proof of it is that the Army of the Dead answered to him because he was the King of Gondor, plus being a ranger in his past he'd probably met people far more dangerous than a deluded Steward.
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:04 PM   #35
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Elfstone, I disagree with you about Faramir. I believe he would have supported Aragorn's claim even if his father were alive. Faramir went on the suicide mission because it was his duty to do as his lord commanded, not out of devotion to his father. (That was one of the things I didn't like about movie Faramir. Book-Faramir said: "It's a stupid mission, but you're the boss, so I'll do it." whereas Movie Faramir said "It's a stupid mission, but I'll do it because then you might love me." That totally weakened the character, IMO.) Part of the reason Denethor was so hard on Faramir is because Faramir thought about things and came to his own conclusions, even if those put him in conflict with his father. Also, Faramir was Gandalf's friend, and you know who Gandalf was backing.

Since one of the things that sent Denethor over the edge was his realization (too late, he thought) that he really did love Faramir, perhaps Aragorn saving Faramir from the Black Breath would have changed Denethor's attitude somewhat. Couple that with the victory at the Black Gate and a tide of popular support for Aragorn, and just maybe Denethor would have stepped down willingly. I think it possible, but unlikely. I do think that both Aragorn and Denethor cared enough about Gondor to avoid another kin-strife at all costs and work out a peaceful, if not mutually satisfactory outcome, though.

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Old 09-21-2004, 10:53 PM   #36
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Lily Bracegirdle, re Book vs Flim Faramir, I have the book open right here:

"Then all were silent, but at length Faramir said, 'I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead - if you command it.'
'I do so,' said Denethor.
'Then farewell!' said Faramir.'But if I should return, think better of me!'
'That depends on the manner of your return,' said Denethor."

As I recall, the film equivalent of this scene was reproduced almost word for word. The main difference is that two scenes were reduced to one, which was fair enough. In the novel, as in the film, Faramir says this soon after his father has told him off for having some initiative and then, incongruously, accused him of being Gandalf's stooge. Now, I'm not saying he goes on the mission so that his father will love him - I think you're right there - but it's certainly in his mind : "What can I do to prove myself to him? Nothing's good enough!"
An interesting post in general, but I thought perhaps you might have forgotten this scene actually was in the novel as well as the film.
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Old 09-22-2004, 08:16 AM   #37
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Lobelia,

I always read that passage as a command, not a plea --"If I do this stupid thing for you, then you'd better show me some respect when I get back" but I can see how others might feel differently. No, actually what I'm mainly referring to is the circumstances, not those words. Denethor knows that Faramir does what he thinks is best without being overly influenced by what Denethor wants. Yes, Faramir knows what his father wants, but he won't just go along with it blindly.

From the same scene:

"Faramir told his tale, with his eyes for the most part on Gandalf..."

Later, Faramir speaks:

" 'I hope I have not done ill?' He looked at his father.
'Ill!' cried Denethor, and his eyes flashed suddenly. ... 'Your bearing is lowly in my presence, yet it is long now since you turned from your own way at my counsel. See, you have spoken skillfully, as ever; but I, have I not seen your eye fixed on Mithrandir, seeking whether you said well or too much? He has long had your heart in his keeping.'"

" 'If what I have done displeases you, my father,' said Faramir quietly, 'I wish I had known your counsel before the burden of so weighty a judgement was thrust on me.'
'Would that have availed to change your judgement?' said Denethor. 'You would have done just so, I deem. I know you well."

"'Do you wish then,' said Faramir, 'that our places had been exchanged?'
'Yes, I wish that indeed,' said Denethor. 'For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.'
For a moment Faramir's restraint gave way. [He's angry, not heartbroken!] 'I would ask you, my father, to remember why it was that I, and not he, was in Ithilien. On one occasion at least your counsel has prevailed, not long ago. It was the Lord of the City that gave the errand to him.'" [Faramir is rubbing Denethor's nose in it!]

After Faramir goes to Osgiliath the narration says: "Faramir did not go by his own choosing. But the Lord of the City was master of his Council, and he was in no mood that day to bow to others " Then it goes on to describe how Faramir and the council argued with Denethor, to no avail.

Denethor says "'I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought -- not if there is a captain here who has still the courage to do his lord's will.' [He's basically saying: I'm the boss, and if you don't do what I say, it's because you're a sissy-boy and not as good as your brother.]
Then all were silent. But at length [after having a think about it] Faramir said: 'I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead -- if you command it. [I don't think the "command" part was in the movie.]
'I do so,' said Denethor.
'Then Farewell!' said Faramir. 'But if I should return, think better of me!'"

Book Faramir's relationship with Denethor is much more a battle of wills between intellectual equals, whereas Movie-Faramir is just a sad boy who'll do almost anything for a scrap of approval. Book Faramir goes on the mission not to please his father, but because he has been ORDERED to do so, and also because his pride is a bit stung I think. It's one of those "Fine, but you'll be sorry when I'm dead!" moments.

For these reasons, I don't think Book Faramir would have blindly supported his father if Aragorn and Denethor had both survived the War. Faramir is capable of judging his father's decisions wrong and following his own conscience. Whether he's capable of outright treason is another question, but I don't doubt that Faramir would back Aragorn's claim.

-Lily
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