Gandalf vs. Sauron

[Dûrbelethwen]

In the Two Towers after Gandalf came back he said that he had become equal with the head nazgul. I have questioned why is Gandulf not at least equal to Sauron since they are both Maia? Especially since Gandalf had a ruling ring and Sauron did not have his one ring. Also according to the Simillarion, Gandalf should be even better it says that Olorin was the chief Maia.

[NightKnight]

It never says Olorin was the "chief maia". I don't think there was one. It's said, however, that he was the wisest.
Maybe he was equal to Sauron, maybe he wasn't. Since he was an Istari he had limitations. Imagine yourselves stuck in a wooden box. Would you be able to jump, run, swim etc.? I know this has been discussed somewhere. Unfortunately I don't know where, or how to do links.

[Boromir88]

Whether, Gandalf and Sauron are equal, not sure, if they aren't they are pretty darn close. Gandalf did fight with Sauron when Frodo had the ring on at Amon Hen. Really who is more powerful? Don't know, just Sauron, Gandalf, and Galadriel are probably the top three during the war of the ring.

[NightKnight]

I'd place Saruman over Galadriel, seeing as he actually is a maia. There is (was) a discussion on this in the N&N forum, on the 10 most powerful beings in ME.

[obloquy]

Let us all defer to a local authority on the matter: here and here and here and here and here and here. Yeah, that's a mess of stuff and sometimes it's more focused on Gandalf and Saruman rather than Sauron, but ehh...

[gorthaur_cruel]

In the Two Towers after Gandalf came back he said that he had become equal with the head nazgul.

He said that? The closests quotes I can think of is Aragorn saying, “The Dark Lord has Nine. But we have One, mightier than they: the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss, and they shall fear him.”. That suggests that Gandalf is stronger than all the Nazguls, which includes the Witch King. The other quote is when Gandalf replies "maybe", when Denethor says that the Witch King was a match for Gandalf.

I have questioned why is Gandulf not at least equal to Sauron since they are both Maia?

Not all humans are equally strong. Just because they're of the same race does not mean that they are equal. After all, the only difference between the Valar and the Maiar is power, since they were all Ainur to begin with. Gandalf's strengths lay in wisdom, rather than power.

Especially since Gandalf had a ruling ring and Sauron did not have his one ring.

The "Ruling Ring" refers to the One Ring. Gandalf had a "Ring of Power", not a ruling ring. However, Gandalf's Narya did not help whatsoever in battle, as is made clear. None of the Three gave any fighting advantages, but rather the power to preserve what is fair.

Also according to the Simillarion, Gandalf should be even better it says that Olorin was the chief Maia.

It says that he was the wisest. Do you think a...let's say, a wise old professor could kill a champion swordsman? I don't think so.

There's almost no doubt that Sauron was the more powerful in terms of strength between the two (despite the fact that Gandalf is my favorite character ). Tolkien wrote in one of his letters that if Gandalf decided to use the One Ring to fight Sauron 1v1, it would have been an even match. He also wrote that neither Galadriel or Elrond would've been able to fight Sauron 1v1 even if they used the One Ring.

[Encaitare]

I think that just because Sauron was evil for so many years, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel never would have stood a chance one-on-one against him. They are more or less pure beings, and would not have been able to withstand the might of Sauron by the time of the War of the Ring.

[obloquy]

I guess my post is wearing the One Ring because it seems to be completely invisible!!!!!!!!! akakaka

[Gurthang]

Obviously, Gandalf was limited in his ability due to his 'Istari' status. Not that wizards are weak, but he was comfined in a human form. This would make him considerably less potent.

As far as the rings are concerned, Sauron created the One, which was specifically designed to dominate and control the others, so I doubt Narya would have assisted Gandalf much against the Dark Lord.

But on the other hand Sauron was somewhat weakened without his ring, so Gandalf would have that advantage.

In the end, I would say Sauron would come out on top. But I'd still cheer for Gandalf!

[Boromir88]

As Gurthang pointed out Gandalf being an "Istari" limitted his powers. So there Sauron had him beat.

Olorin was said to be the wisest of the Maia, but wisest isnt always the powerfullest. Sauron again as a Maia was more powerful then Gandalf (Olorin), there were a handful of Maia more powerful then Sauron, I will have to get it specifically who, but I do know there were 6-7 equal or greater Maia then Sauron,

[obloquy]

Just as a general rule, when making assertions to further your argument, it is helpful if you post textual support for those assertions. You'll see good examples of this technique in the posts I linked to.

[Boromir88]

I tend not to go searching for info to prove points, I talk what I know, if I'm proven wrong then I will admit it. If I believe someone is wrong then I will go and search for "textual evidence," so far, no one has said I am wrong. I have found the Maia equal or greater in power then Sauron by the way.

That would be Ilmare, eonwe, and melian. That I know of. Ilmare was of Varda and was the mightiest of the maia. Eonwe was the herald of Manwe and was the strongest in arms. Melian is pretty obvious, she was made as a shield against evil, which what seemed like only Morgoth himself could break, certainly not Sauron. This can be found in the Maia part of the Sil, Valaquenta.

[Voralphion]

I think I have read somewhere that in the beginning Sauron and Olorin were equal in innate power. Gandalf however was severely restricted in his use of that power, as he was not allowed to use his power openly and couldn't contest Sauron directly using it, (Sauron had no such restrictions). Also, much of his power was lost to him by the process of becoming incarnate when he became an Istari.
As stated earlier, Olorin was by no means the most powerful maia, some more powerful than him that come mind are; Eomwe, Ilmare, Melian, Osse and probably Arien.

[Elfstone]

There's a pretty good side debate in this thread about Gandalf vs Sauron - http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...3&page=1&pp=40

[Dûrbelethwen]

I have just found the answer to my own question in "Unfinished Tales". In the section about the Istari it says this : "
it was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force or fear."

[Elfstone]

How does that answer your question? Being forbidden to match power with power means only that Gandalf wasn't allowed to take on Sauron directly. It's doesn't answer the question of whether or not he was up to the task.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf would be a match for Sauron, If Sauron had the Ring then it would certainly improve his chances by at least 50%, but maybe Gandalf could pull it off but I personally think it's unlikely.

[obloquy]

I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf would be a match for Sauron, If Sauron had the Ring then it would certainly improve his chances by at least 50%, but maybe Gandalf could pull it off but I personally think it's unlikely.

Based on what? Do some research, cite some sources. Look at the arguments I linked to above and give responses to the points made therein, instead of arbitrary, meaningless, ignorant, regurgitated speculation.

[mark12_30]

Obloquy, you have provided a wealth of information in those links. Thank you.

My apologies: for coming late to this debate, but also (and especially) for not providing numeric references for these letter quotes, below. I remembered the gist of the quotes and searched online for them, so they are not as complete as I would like. I hope to return to the letter during some spare time and glean for further information; perhaps another member of this thread will beat me to it. For those who do not have a copy of Letters, I cannot recommend the book highly enough. But then, I am known for my Letters-bias.

These quotes are simply the first thought that came to my mind pondering the question, and I hope they provide further impetus for the discussion.

(J.R.R. Tolkien in a letter to Mrs. Eileen Elgar - September 1963):

"Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good' and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great)."

J.R.R. Tolkien in a letter to Mrs. Eileen Elgar - September 1963

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]--being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form."

[obloquy]

Good quotes, mark, thanks for posting them. I agree with you about Letters: there's quite a wealth of information there that is often overlooked--even by me, in this case.

[the phantom]

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]--being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

This quote gets used a lot but is it that meaningful? I have a problem with that quote that focuses on the use of the word "expected".

First, saying "expected" requires an opinion- the opinion of the people who are doing the expecting if you get my meaning. Tolkien did not say "Gandalf might beat Sauron", he said "Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron". This requires the presence of an opinion on whether or not Gandalf could defeat Sauron. Tolkien is commenting on this opinion.

Tolkien then gives a reason for this opinion- "being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order".

So the quote seems to mean "Gandalf is an Ainu just like Sauron and he was sent by the Powers to challenge Sauron so he is someone who people might expect to master Sauron."

It does not say "Gandalf would beat Sauron", "Gandalf might beat Sauron", or even "Gandalf has a slight chance at beating Sauron". It simply says "Gandalf might be expected to beat Sauron".

Expectations can be wrong.

And also, notice the "might". That certainly does not lend strength to the quote.

The quote does not seem to be particularly solid so its importance should be lessened.

[Boromir88]

I'm not sure whether or not Gandalf would be a match for Sauron, If Sauron had the Ring then it would certainly improve his chances by at least 50%, but maybe Gandalf could pull it off but I personally think it's unlikely.

Obloquy:

Based on what? Do some research, cite some sources. Look at the arguments I linked to above and give responses to the points made therein, instead of arbitrary, meaningless, ignorant, regurgitated speculation.

I happen to agree, that is a meaningless pointless comment. But, whether you or I think it's meaningless or pointless, doesn't matter, this is a forum, people can post their own opinions. I never knew "citing sources" to support our opinion was a requirement? Sure, it helps your opinion, but one can still post an opinion without "supporting" it, whether it is a meaningless opinion or not.

[obloquy]

Tolkien frequently spoke in this way--he liked to evoke the impression that his world was its own living thing, the exact laws and parameters of which not even he could absolutely define. However, the quote is really just saying that if anyone had the potential to overcome Sauron, it was Gandalf alone.

So what, though? The argument does not hinge in the least upon one's interpretation of the quote that mark has provided. The quote merely adds one more minor piece of support. I have provided ample argument for my (Gandalf's) camp; ample argument, I believe, to place the burden of proof squarely on the shoulders of Sauron's supporters. So let's have it.

[obloquy]

I never knew "citing sources" to support our opinion was a requirement? Sure, it helps your opinion, but one can still post an opinion without "supporting" it, whether it is a meaningless opinion or not.

Maybe it isn't required, but it should be. If you refuse to provide any textual backing for your assertions, you can be confident that whatever you post will be dismissed (at least by those of us who know better) as the inane and unwelcome prattle of children who are sitting in on an adult conversation.

[Boromir88]

Oh of course, giving textual evidence definately puts points in your favor, and then your argument actually has liability. But, I'm just saying if someone wants to post ignorant, meaningless, regurgitated speculation, let them. If they want to look like fools let 'em.

However, we adults can learn a lot from children. I suggest you take the time to actually think about what some of them have to say. But that is just my take on things.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Sorry if people think my comments were ignorant and stupid and honestly I have to agree with you on a lot of what you said, I should have explained my reasons for writing what I wrote and your criticisms were, let's be fair, justified and I'm sorry if anyone got annoyed with what I said.

[gorthaur_cruel]

"Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master [Sauron]--being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form."

If you'd quoted the entire three paragraphs, it would have been quite obvious that Tolkien was saying that only Gandalf might be expected to defeat Sauron if he used the One Ring. It says that Gandalf and Sauron both had an even chance of beating each other if Gandalf used the Ring. Which implies that Gandalf is no match whatsoever against Sauron w/o using the Ring. Here's the 3 paragraphs in full, for those not satisfied with my summary

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himsefl. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of "mortals" no one, not even Artagorn. In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructivle form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the "Mirror of Galadriel", it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. IF so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self, was not contemplated.

One can impagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

[obloquy]

Someone needs to post evidence of Sauron transforming into a much more powerful being when in possession of his Ring. This seems to be a very common idea, but I've never seen any reason to believe it. Tolkien tells us that Sauron is always in "rapport" with the power contained within the Ring--he always has access to it. He may be weakened to a degree by not having the Ring on his hand, but he never exceeds his original potential. My argument is that Sauron and Olorin (Gandalf) were beings of equal power in their beginnings, and therefore Gandalf's potency was equal to that of Sauron with his Ring.

Possible arguments:

Tolkien, in places, indicates that things would be hopeless and Sauron would be unstoppable if he came into possession of the Ring again. My response: This would have been the ultimate defeat because the only means for overthrowing Sauron at this point in Middle-earth's history was the destruction of the One Ring. All beings with the spiritual potency to resist Sauron were either gone or leaving. Even if they (Galadriel, Elrond perhaps, and Glorfindel) had stayed, they would not have commanded the kind of force necessary to overthrow Sauron militarily. Which leads into possible argument #2:

Why, then, didn't Gandalf just kick Sauron's butt? We're all familiar with the oft-discussed limitations on the Istari. These weren't limitations on their spiritual power (see my links), they were restrictions on how they could address Sauron's threat. Leading an army to destroy Sauron would have resulted in the slaughter of all involved--Sauron's armies were vast, and an army sizeable enough to overcome his would have been impossible to amass. The hope of those warring against Sauron's forces at Minas Tirith was still only in Frodo's quest. They were dead men. The limitations placed upon the Istari were actually a hint from the Powers: in effect, "you've got one hope, and it's not to put up your dukes and challenge him."

Why does Sauron need the Ring, then? Obviously, to prevent anyone from seizing it and claiming it. The quote states that if someone were to bend the Ring to their will, Sauron would be broken and the effect would have been as if the Ring had been destroyed. Sauron needed it, first and foremost, to prevent this possibility (since he never conceived that someone might actually destroy it). He also wanted the power over the Three to eliminate any threat from the elf angle.

The Ring was Sauron's anchor to the physical realm and it contained a large portion of his power. For these reasons it was Sauron's only weakness, and we might cornily adjust The Don's advice thus: "Keep your friends close, but your weaknesses closer."

Remember, Sauron had been defeated before while in possession of the Ring. We might consider it a beefing item for a bearer other than Sauron (who was able to wield it) since they would have access to the majority of Sauron's power; but for Sauron, the Ring only contained his own power and was not a supplementary source for enhancing himself.

[Maerbenn]

obloquy, the statement that the power of the Ring was in 'rapport' with Sauron is in Letters No. 131. The sentence before that statement reads:

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced.

[obloquy]

I contend that this means he was merely enhanced in relation to his state while not wearing the Ring, not his original innate power. From my post above, the following is relevant:

He may be weakened to a degree by not having the Ring on his hand, but he never exceeds his original potential. My argument is that Sauron and Olorin (Gandalf) were beings of equal power in their beginnings, and therefore Gandalf's potency was equal to that of Sauron with his Ring.