Rings of Power & Osanwe-Kenta

[Lalwendë]

I have recently had the pleasure of reading the Osanwe-Kenta and it has had my head spinning with ideas, the first of which I shall attempt to start a discussion on here, as it might be of interest to all. While I appreciate that not everyone will have had the benefit of reading this piece by Tolkien, I think it will still be a topic others can join in on. For purposes of clarity, the thread already open discussing the work is here

There is also a current discussion on the Three Rings here

In a nutshell, the Osanwe-Kenta concerns the issue of thought transference, which is a skill not only Elves posses, but also Valar and Maiar, and there is a possibility it is latent within other species/races. But I still recommend that you look at the existing review thread at least! It is very complex, but once you read the actual essay (available by mail order) your head will be full of new thoughts.

One of my first thoughts was how this relates to the Rings of Power. We know about the powers of the One Ring and how the Ringbearer can be ‘seen’ when wearing it, and it is this thought which sparked me off on this line of thought.

In the Osanwe-Kenta it says of Morgoth:

For he would come by stealth to a mind open and unwary, hoping to learn some part of its thought before it closed, and still more to implant in it his own thought, to deceive it and win it to his friendship.

This is a useful thought to bear in mind, as I think that Sauron himself, by way of the Rings of Power, hoped to enter the minds of others, in particular the Elves.

his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance

Those who were aware of having this power could in effect ‘close’ their minds to outside influences, and indeed, this happened to Morgoth himself, as he could not perceive truth from lies. So Sauron, by cunning, may have hoped to create these Rings of Power in an attempt to ‘see’ into the minds of others.

He failed seemingly to entirely reach into the minds of Dwarves:

The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom, nor can they be turned to shadows.

This is interesting, as the creation of Dwarves took a different path to the creation of other races, so they may have possessed different abilities.

But he was entirely successful in reaching into the hearts and minds of men, as it says in The Sil of the enslavement of the Nazgul:

They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thraldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's. And they became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows.

I was thinking why Sauron would even want to see into the hearts and minds of men in this way, as due to their mortality, this would be a power limited in itself. Unless his aim was purely to create a group of wraiths to do his bidding. Perhaps this is why he so desired to see into the hearts and minds of immortal Elves; he would have an everlasting link into their thoughts.

Sauron did not make the three Elven rings of power, but once they were created, he went on to create the Ruling Ring, which appears to have had some way of affecting the Three, even though it could not control them in the same way it could control the other rings.

they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

What is interesting in the above passage is how it specifically mentions that the Three had to be concealed. Was there some faint or tenuous connection between the One and the Three which may have enabled thought transference between Sauron and those who bore these rings? I cannot be certain, but is it the case that they were not used until the Ruling Ring was known to be lost? That they in themselves in some way possessed qualities which may have enhanced those discussed in Osanwe-Kenta is a possibility raised in the following sentence which says that no ‘open’ word was ‘spoken’:

Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise,

I feel sure, now I have read Osanwe-Kenta, that there is a definite link between what it discusses and the Rings of Power. It seems to me to explain the powers contained within those rings, in particular, the powers within the Ruling Ring. In the passage below we see how the One Ring must be made powerful (in effect, how it must contain so much of Sauron’s strength that to destroy it is also to destroy Sauron), and also a purpose for his making it. In doing this, he hoped to be able to not only see into the thoughts of others, but also to control those thoughts, and to perceive truth from lies.

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

That he was unable to control the thoughts of the Elves is due to their own innate abilities, and they ‘saw’ what he was attempting to do. While Men were not aware of what he would do, maybe because their power of thought was latent?

I wonder if anyone else agrees with what I've postulated here? What impressions did others who have read the Osanwe-Kenta get about the Rings of Power? And what do those who have not read it think of my idea?

[Bêthberry]

I still recommend that you look at the existing review thread at least! It is very complex, but once you read the actual essay (available by mail order) your head will be full of new thoughts.

We have to read the essay? No transference?

[obloquy]

Whoa, this might be up my alley. ^_^

[Maédhros]

Very interesting I must say.

I was thinking why Sauron would even want to see into the hearts and minds of men in this way, as due to their mortality, this would be a power limited in itself. Unless his aim was purely to create a group of wraiths to do his bidding. Perhaps this is why he so desired to see into the hearts and minds of immortal Elves; he would have an everlasting link into their thoughts.

Perhaps there is another motif as to why Sauron would want to have men as his slaves in this way. Consider that because of Men are mortal, their hröa would eventually die and their fëa would leave the world, those cannot be such great servants if they leave eventually but if you somehow could prevent their fëar leavin the world (ex: by somehow linking Sauron's own spirit to the fëar of men) to prevent that men would enjoy the gift of Eru in order to make men slaves forever.

What is interesting in the above passage is how it specifically mentions that the Three had to be concealed. Was there some faint or tenuous connection between the One and the Three which may have enabled thought transference between Sauron and those who bore these rings? I cannot be certain, but is it the case that they were not used until the Ruling Ring was known to be lost? That they in themselves in some way possessed qualities which may have enhanced those discussed in Osanwe-Kenta is a possibility raised in the following sentence which says that no ‘open’ word was ‘spoken’:

Perhaps because the rings came from the same kind of craft, the ringbearers had greater affinity than otherwise they would have had. We also have to remember that it was not the later elven ring bearers but Celebrimbor who noticed what Sauron was up to. I don't think that there can be a greater affinity between the maker of the 3 rings and Sauron, both great craftsmen in their own right.

That he was unable to control the thoughts of the Elves is due to their own innate abilities, and they ‘saw’ what he was attempting to do. While Men were not aware of what he would do, maybe because their power of thought was latent?

The thing is that, if the One ring could control the mind of the ring bearers, how is it that Celebrimbor was able not to fall into Sauron's control? Does that means that Sauron needed sometime to get used to using the ring to control others?

I think that the bigger question that needs to be asked is this:
How could Sauron control minds of Elves that not even Morgoth could? How could Sauron control the minds of others if that is an impossibility? Only Eru can open a closed mind?
I wonder if that means that Sauron could leave open the minds of other beings by deceiving them with their desires?
Elves (ñoldor) = Valinor in ME.
dwarves = riches.
Men = power.

From Ósanwe-kenta

The Incarnates have by the nature of sáma the same faculties; but their perception is dimmed by the hröa, for their fëa is united to their hröa and its normal procedure is through the hröa, which is in itself part of Eä, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hröa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective. Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.
Affinity may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hröa to hröa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fëar, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fëa to fëa.
Urgency is imparted by great need of the "sender" (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the "receiver" the thought is the clearer received. Authority may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others.
These causes may strengthen the thought to pass the veils and reach a recipient mind. But that mind must remain open, and at the least passive. If, being aware that it is addressed, it then closes, no urgency or affinity will enable the sender's thought to enter.

Though in "Arda Unmarred" openness is the normal state, every mind has, from its first making as an individual, the right to close; and it has absolute power to make this effective by will. Nothing can penetrate the barrier of Unwill.

Just to make a note:

With this statement of the impossibility of forced penetration of the mind, compare the first paragraph of part (ii) of the Notes on motives in the Silmarillion (MR:398-99), which appears to say that such an act is possible, though forbidden and, even if done for "good" purposes, criminal.

The interesting thing is that while Melkor used his powers to control others by the use of the language, could Sauron have refined this method by somehow using the rings?

[Lalwendë]

The interesting thing is that while Melkor used his powers to control others by the use of the language, could Sauron have refined this method by somehow using the rings?

One of my further thoughts - which I failed to include - was on the script which is engraved on the One Ring. Obviously script is language, and I was thinking whether in some way Sauron too was attempting to control by the use of language. The script as we know is hidden unless the ring is placed in fire so this could possibly be a case of subliminal messaging. It is not said, or at least I do not know that it says, whether the other rings (I'm thinking of the 7 and the 9) were also inscribed in some way.

[Maédhros]

One of my further thoughts - which I failed to include - was on the script which is engraved on the One Ring. Obviously script is language, and I was thinking whether in some way Sauron too was attempting to control by the use of language. The script as we know is hidden unless the ring is placed in fire so this could possibly be a case of subliminal messaging. It is not said, or at least I do not know that it says, whether the other rings (I'm thinking of the 7 and the 9) were also inscribed in some way.

I really don't see the script in the One ring as significant except to identify it from other magical rings. I think that Sauron as his former master Melkor used the language in order to trick Celebrimbor in order to control them.

The question still remains as to how Sauron could best Melkor into finally achieving the fact that he could control the users of the Rings, even the 3 of the elves.

[drigel]

Was it the innate ability of the elves, or their superb craftsmenship? These Noldor have a history of creating things that Vala / Maia covet.... and on a related note -

As for Sauron - being one of Aule's faction is heady stuff! This is the only way I could see Sauron bettering Morgoth in any aspect. It is interesting to contemplate how created things have such an impact on Ea.

Ultimately, knowlage of use and identity of the 3 rings users could be sufficient intelligence for Sauron. Im sure he intended that thought awareness or thought control was the object in the creation of the Ruling ring, but perhaps (after the destruction of Eregion) user identity was enough. Concealing the rings seems logical in the fact that Sauron could/would have common present knowlage of the bearer's location. --"Ah, Galadriel just put her ring on - I know where her kingdom lies.... "

It's interesting and somewhat ironic that - free peoples uniting aside - it seems to me, that only the elves (by an act of Grace?), in creating such powerfull rings, were ultimately the architects of the downfall of Sauron. Otherwise he would not have put so much of his power in the Ruling ring, and created the lynchpin of his own demise.?..?

[Maédhros]

Was it the innate ability of the elves, or their superb craftsmenship? These Noldor have a history of creating things that Vala / Maia covet.... and on a related note -

I would have to say that in the case of Fëanor, his silmarils while the greatest creation by any Eldar, were not if fact something new but they captured the light of the Trees made by Yavanna. So in a way it was a memento of the Trees of Valinórë.

It's interesting and somewhat ironic that - free peoples uniting aside - it seems to me, that only the elves (by an act of Grace?), in creating such powerfull rings, were ultimately the architects of the downfall of Sauron. Otherwise he would not have put so much of his power in the Ruling ring, and created the lynchpin of his own demise.?..?

I have to totally disagree with this, it was not the Elves of their own accord that they created the rings but it was Sauron himself who had the initial idea of the Rings.
But if you think for a bit, would have Sauron endured this long without making the Ruling Ring?
I don't know for how long Sauron had "incarnated" himself with a body, but I think that it is very likely that without his ring, his bodily demise in both Númenor and with the Elendil/Erenion fight, that he would have been unable to reappear again in the Third Age.
So, yes with the destruction of the Ring, Sauron was "destroyed" if you will but would Sauron had been able to reincarnate himself after his Númenor and Second Age downfall?

[drigel]

good points Maedros!
It does beg the question of : was it the ring, or Saurons innate ability as a Maia that enabled his reimbodiment? Im not sure what canon has to say about that. IMO your right most def after the last Alliance. But IMO, the post Numenor destruction w/o the ring Sauron would have regained the same form as he was post Last Alliance with the ring. If that makes sense at all...

My point on the things was this: it seemed to me that the underlying theme here was how world shaking they were. Not a paradox but an enigma (for lack of a better word). They are both sub-creations within a sub-creation within...etc....

[the phantom]

That he was unable to control the thoughts of the Elves is due to their own innate abilities, and they ‘saw’ what he was attempting to do.

He wasn't unable. They just took their rings off before he had the chance to do it.

The interesting thing is that while Melkor used his powers to control others by the use of the language, could Sauron have refined this method by somehow using the rings?

The question still remains as to how Sauron could best Melkor into finally achieving the fact that he could control the users of the Rings, even the 3 of the elves.

Here's some answers from HoME X, Myths Transformed-

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

And this-

Thus, as 'Morgoth', when Melkor was confronted by the existence of other inhabitants of Arda, with other wills and intelligences, he was enraged by the mere fact of their existence, and his only notion of dealing with them was by physical force, or the fear of it. His sole unltimate object was their destruction...Hence his endeavour always to break wills and subordinate them to or absorb them into his own will and being, before destroying their bodies. This was sheer nihilism...

And a bit later-

Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.

And here's some more-

Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done...And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage...

And finally-

Though of immensely smaller native power than his Master, he remained less corrupt, cooler and more capable of calculation... While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor, whom in the beginning he had adored. He thus was often able to achieve things, first conceived by Melkor, which his master did not or could not complete in the furious haste of his malice.... We may assume, then, that the idea of breeding the Orcs came from Melkor... The details of the accomplishment of this wickedness were, however, left mainly to the subtleties of Sauron.

Hope you enjoyed the quotes.

[Maédhros]

He wasn't unable. They just took their rings off before he had the chance to do it.

They? It was Celebrimbor who noticed that, and it was after that that he gave the rings away to Erenion and Galadriel.
And if Sauron was able to control the minds of the wearers, how is it that Celebrimbor reacted fast and took off the ring/rings? Perhaps it is a process that takes time.

It does beg the question of : was it the ring, or Saurons innate ability as a Maia that enabled his reimbodiment? Im not sure what canon has to say about that. IMO your right most def after the last Alliance. But IMO, the post Numenor destruction w/o the ring Sauron would have regained the same form as he was post Last Alliance with the ring. If that makes sense at all...

From Ósanwe-kenta

Here Pengolodh adds a long note on the use of hröar by the Valar. In brief he says that though in origin a "self-arraying", it may tend to approach the state of "incarnation", especially with the lesser members of that order (the Maiar). "It is said that the longer and the more the same hröa is used, the greater is the bond of habit, and the less do the 'self-arrayed' desire to leave it. As raiment may soon cease to be adornment, and becomes (as is said in the tongues of both Elves and Men) a 'habit', a customary garb. Or if among Elves and Men it be worn to mitigate heat or cold, it soon makes the clad body less able to endure these things when naked". Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a "spirit" (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving.
"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.
'The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children. Melkor alone of the Great became at last bound to a bodily form; but that was because of the use that he made of this in his purpose to become Lord of the Incarnate, and of the great evils that he did in the visible body. Also he had dissipated his native powers in the control of his agents and servants, so that he became in the end, in himself and without their support, a weakened thing, consumed by hate and unable to restore himself from the state into which he had fallen. Even his visible form he could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed". (Pengolodh here evidently refers to Sauron in particular, from whose arising he fled at last from Middle-earth. But the first destruction of the bodily form of Sauron was recorded in the histories of the Elder Days, in the Lay of Leithian.)

We have no knowledge (at least as far as I know) as to how many times a maiar who has become incarnate can "reclothe" himself when his hröa is destroyed. We know that the balrogs once their hröa was destroyed they didn't reincarnate themselves again. Although there is the mention of the orc-captains. It is my personal opinion that when Sauron's hröa was destroyed in the Elendil/Erenion fight, that he could not have survived without the One Ring. To me it was an anchor that allowed him to reclothe himself in time.

From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

This last point was not well understood in the Elder Days. For Morgoth had many servants, the oldest and most potent of whom were immortal, belonging indeed in their beginning to the Maiar; and these evil spirits like their Master could take on visible forms. Those whose business it was to direct the Orcs often took Orkish shapes, though they were greater and more terrible. Thus it was that the histories speak of Great Orcs or Orc-captains who were not slain, and who reappeared in battle through years far longer than the span of the lives of Men.

The footnote at this point, staring that 'Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War', and was perhaps not a personal name, is curious. Boldog appears several times in the Lay of Leithian as the name of the Orc-captain who led a raid into Doriath (references in the Index to The Lays of Beleriand); he reappears in the Quenta (IV.113), but is not mentioned thereafter. I do not know of any other reference to an Orc named Boldog,

[drigel]

Forgive me if this turns into a debate over semantics, but that reads as if Sauron did not need the ring to rehouse. Are you speculating that, after the Numenor incident, the ring was needed to keep his hroa in ME after the Last Alliance defeat?

My point was that w/o the ring, Sauron would have been able to rehouse after Numenor - but only as a spirit of malice, akin to as he was in LOTR. Thus a physical struggle at the Last Alliance would have been impossible.

[the phantom]

And if Sauron was able to control the minds of the wearers, how is it that Celebrimbor reacted fast and took off the ring/rings?

Here's an illustration using tennis and Andy Roddick.

Andy Roddick can kick my butt in tennis. I'm on the court waiting for an opponent and Andy walks on. If I stay I'm going to get beat, so I run off the court and get in my car and drive home. He can most certainly beat me- I just never gave him the chance to engage me.

The same goes for the rings. In the Sil it says-

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

As you can see, the instant Sauron stepped onto the court they ran away, because they knew "he would be the master of them".

How long would it have taken? Maybe not long at all. Maybe all Sauron had to do was turn his attention towards them.

[Maédhros]

Forgive me if this turns into a debate over semantics, but that reads as if Sauron did not need the ring to rehouse. Are you speculating that, after the Numenor incident, the ring was needed to keep his hroa in ME after the Last Alliance defeat?

My point was that w/o the ring, Sauron would have been able to rehouse after Numenor - but only as a spirit of malice, akin to as he was in LOTR. Thus a physical struggle at the Last Alliance would have been impossible.

Certainly in the story of Lay of Leithian Sauron's (Thû) hröa was destroyed and he was able to reclothe himself again, without the need for the Ring.
But the bigger question is: What is the Ring made of? Does the Ring has part of Sauron's "spirit" (power) in it?
I don't think that I'm explaining myself correclty to you. I'm not sayin that the Ring was needed to keep his hröa in ME. When his hröa is destroyed it remains destroyed, Sauron needs to use more of his power to reclothe himself. As this process repeats himself, Saruon looses more of his innate powers, ex. Balrogs who once destroyed couldn't reclothe themselves.

This is what I believe would have happened sooner to Sauron if he had not made the Ring:
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

The war was successful, and ruin was limited to the small (if beautiful) region of Beleriand. Morgoth was thus actually made captive in physical form, and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge – and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates. It was then made plain (though it must have been understood beforehand by Manwë and Námo) that, though he had 'disseminated' his power (his evil and possessive and rebellious will) far and wide into the matter of Arda, he had lost direct control of this, and all that 'he', as a surviving remnant of integral being, retained as 'himself and under control was the terribly shrunken and reduced spirit that inhabited his self-imposed (but now beloved) body. When that body was destroyed he was weak and utterly 'houseless', and for that time at a loss and 'unanchored' as it were. We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwë was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war, or even to end Melkor. Melkor was not Sauron. We speak of him being 'weakened, shrunken, reduced'; but this is in comparison with the great Valar. He had been a being of immense potency and life. The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatnes

It is my personal opinion but I think that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to be renew again and would have been a no factor in the TA.

The following was added marginally after the page was written:
If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

[drigel]

OK
Suffice to say there is a limited amount of (shall we say) capital, when it comes to rehousing - esp for a Maia. Thanks Maedros for the text! I love to pose questions which compels one to insert HOME quotes. hard to do for me at work

QUOTE]It is my personal opinion but I think that without the Ring, Sauron would not have been able to be renew again and would have been a no factor in the TA.[/QUOTE]

You are speaking about post Numenor, right? Or are you asserting that the post Melian encounter took so much out of S, that it tapped his reserves for any future reimbodiements?

But the bigger question is: What is the Ring made of? Does the Ring has part of Sauron's "spirit" (power) in it?

Excellent question. Perhaps a definition of what "it" is. Is the power to dominate other entities the same stuff as the ablity of a Maia to rehouse?

keep it up and thanks again!

[Maédhros]

Suffice to say there is a limited amount of (shall we say) capital, when it comes to rehousing - esp for a Maia. Thanks Maedros for the text! I love to pose questions which compels one to insert HOME quotes. hard to do for me at work

I'm at work too.

You are speaking about post Numenor, right? Or are you asserting that the post Melian encounter took so much out of S, that it tapped his reserves for any future reimbodiements?

I think that you mean Lúthien. I think that you get the point. We really have no way of knowing really. It is my opinion that Sauron could have reincarnated himself after the Númenor debacle (not for Sauron ofc) without the Ring but it is only a guess.

Melian is another matter altogether. Melian had been incarnated from a long time and she even had a child (Lúthien). I wonder if Melian travelled to Valinórë via a ship or if she returned to her true ëalar form.
My guess is that she transformed into her ëalar form and returned to Valinórë even thought it is stated that it would have been more difficult for her to do that but you might argue that because Thingol was slained the link that she had with him now that it was gone allowed her to do that.
I wonder if perhaps when Thingol was allowed release from the Halls of Mandos if Melian would have reincarnated herself in order to interact with Thingol.

Excellent question. Perhaps a definition of what "it" is. Is the power to dominate other entities the same stuff as the ablity of a Maia to rehouse?

I think that it has been already posted a while back.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate.

To me this means that he spent a part of his "ëalar" power not only in his ring but perhaps in the other ones except the 3.
I wonder if perhaps this is the reason as to why Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron's intentions?

[Neithan]

but you might argue that because Thingol was slained the link that she had with him now that it was gone allowed her to do that.

I'm confused. Are you saying that her link with Thingol is what bound her to her body, or are you saying that it is what allowed her to leave it. If the former, then I disagree. If Melian was bound to her body, then it was because of how she used her body not because of her link to Thingol. If you were saying the latter then I would say that it is a possability, but it is my opinion that when Thingol died her link to Middle Earth was severed and her link to her body went with it. Also there seem to be degrees of incarnation, Melian may have been incarnate to some extent, but certainly not as much as Sauron was.

To me this means that he spent a part of his "ëalar" power not only in his ring but perhaps in the other ones except the 3.
I wonder if perhaps this is the reason as to why Celebrimbor was aware of Sauron's intentions?

Sauron may well have had more to do with some of the Rings than teaching, but this quote could just be referring to the power Sauron used to bind the Rings together.
Unless I am mistaken the quote from the Sil posted earlier implied that it was not just Celebrimbor who was aware of him but all of the Elves that wore rings. I think that Sauron didn't realize that the link between the Rings would go both ways (although the One Ring was dominant) and so did not realize that the Elves would percieve him when he put on the Ring.

About Sauron reclothing himself, remember that he was not incarnate until after the destruction of Numenore. The Ealar's power was lessened after their bodies were destroyed even if they are not incarnate, but far more so if they are. The first time Sauron's body was destroyed he was hurt only a little. The second time was much worse, just like Morgoth he had done horrible evil and he had dispersed much of his power (the Ring). Also there was the weakening of his power due to his body being destroyed. This resulted in his becoming incarnate. So when the Last Alliance came there was a different story, this time he was incarnate and so became nothing more than an impotent (or nearly so) spirit (there is no record, that I can recall, of any Maia, other than Sauron, who came back after being "killed" in incarnate form, save maybe Gandalf, but he seems to have been a special case also). However, the Ring is what saved him, it "anchored" him so that, slowly, he was able to rebuild a body. Just as his Ring was his savior so it became his bane, for when it was destroyed his anchor was lost and so was he.

[drigel]

Maedros thats funny - you need to give me your tips. I need a secret compartment under my desk a 'la George Castansa

My mistake - I did mean Luthien.

Reading the Ósanwe-kenta helps me to rectify the whole Huan issue in my mind. That now makes sense to me. Thinking about that now - spiders eagles et al as well.

[Maédhros]

I'm confused. Are you saying that her link with Thingol is what bound her to her body, or are you saying that it is what allowed her to leave it. If the former, then I disagree. If Melian was bound to her body, then it was because of how she used her body not because of her link to Thingol. If you were saying the latter then I would say that it is a possability, but it is my opinion that when Thingol died her link to Middle Earth was severed and her link to her body went with it. Also there seem to be degrees of incarnation, Melian may have been incarnate to some extent, but certainly not as much as Sauron was.

What I'm saying is that there indeed was a link with Thingol that made her incarnate herself and be with him in ME. I'm very familiar with Melian after Thingol died because that is something that we are currently working in the Project. It is my opinion that when Thingol was slained, Melian went to Ossiriand first to warn Beren and Lúthien about what had happened in Menegroth unlike what it is told in the story in the Published Silmarillion.
I have to strongly disagree with the level of incarnation of Melian and Sauron. Melian is definitely more strongly dependent on her hröa than Sauron. Why? Because she even had a child in that union.
From Ósanwe-kenta

"We do not know the axani (laws, rules, as primarily proceeding from Eru) that were laid down upon the Valar with particular reference to their state, but it seems clear that there was no axan against these things. Nonetheless it appears to be an axan, or maybe necessary consequence, that if they are done, then the spirit must dwell in the body that it used, and be under the same necessities as the Incarnate. The only case that is known in the histories of the Eldar is that of Melian who became the spouse of King Elu-thingol. This certainly was not evil or against the will of Eru, and though it led to sorrow, both Elves and Men were enriched.

About Sauron reclothing himself, remember that he was not incarnate until after the destruction of Numenore. The Ealar's power was lessened after their bodies were destroyed even if they are not incarnate, but far more so if they are. The first time Sauron's body was destroyed he was hurt only a little. The second time was much worse, just like Morgoth he had done horrible evil and he had dispersed much of his power (the Ring). Also there was the weakening of his power due to his body being destroyed. This resulted in his becoming incarnate. So when the Last Alliance came there was a different story, this time he was incarnate and so became nothing more than an impotent (or nearly so) spirit (there is no record, that I can recall, of any Maia, other than Sauron, who came back after being "killed" in incarnate form, save maybe Gandalf, but he seems to have been a special case also). However, the Ring is what saved him, it "anchored" him so that, slowly, he was able to rebuild a body. Just as his Ring was his savior so it became his bane, for when it was destroyed his anchor was lost and so was he.

Are you implying that Sauron was a mere spirit and not incarnate during his time in Númenórë? That of course is just wrong.
From Akallabêth The Downfall of Númenor

For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, and the doom that Eru laid upon sea and land. It was greater far than aught he had looked for, hoping only for the death of the Númenóreans and the defeat of their proud king. And Sauron, sitting in his black seat in the midst of the Temple, had laughed when he heard the trumpets of Ar-Pharazôn sounding for battle; and again he had laughed when he heard the thunder of the storm; and a third time, even as he laughed at his own thought, thinking what he would do now in the world, being rid of the Edain for ever, he was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home.

He was definitely incarnate in Númenórë.
From The Tale of Years

Sauron is taken as prisoner to Númenor; 3262-3310 Sauron seduces the King and corrupts the Númenoreans.
3319 Ar-Pharazôn assails Valinor. Downfall of Númenor. Elendil and his sons escape.

So we have that Sauron spent aprox. 3319-3262 (57) years in Númenórë as an incarnate.
Can you imagine Sauron not being incarnate while in Númenórë. They would have freaked out at talking to a spirit I think.
A bigger point is this. How can anyone know that Sauron wasn't incarnate the whole time that he was in ME? If Melkor his master decided to be one, it would be logical that he his lieutenant would follow his master too.

[drigel]

Wasnt the authors point that Morgoth, being a greater Vala, was able to do both - albeit lessening his physical stucture/strength as time went on? IMO Saurons only way to do this was in ring craftsmenship.

[Lalwendë]

I’m pleased to see so much discussion here, I wasn’t sure it would be a topic with great ‘appeal’, but obviously there are a fair few who have been lucky enough to have read Osanwe-kenta. And also the quotes from HoME have been useful to add another perspective.

Originally Posted by Maedhros

How could Sauron control minds of Elves that not even Morgoth could? How could Sauron control the minds of others if that is an impossibility? Only Eru can open a closed mind?

I think that the answer to this question might lie in the deception Sauron carried out during the creation of the Rings. As one part of sanwe is unwill, i.e. the ability to close the mind to perception from outside, then he would have needed to carry out some deception in order to prevent those barriers being put up; he would have needed to get the Elves’ trust. Although, there is another possibility in the following line from The Sil:

And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency

Perhaps Sauron needed to put an immense amount of power into the creation of the One Ring in order to overcome the power of the Elven rings; an amount of power sufficient to make it so that the destruction of the One Ring would be his own downfall? Looking at the Osanwe-kenta, it may also be possible that Sauron had more inherent power of sanwe than did the Elves. This may be dependent upon whether and how much he is perceived as an ‘Incarnate’.

Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.

As to when and how the Elves perceived that Sauron was intending to have control over their minds, I think the following explains that they became aware once he wore the One Ring, and that they removed their own rings as soon as they became aware. This would mean that there was somewhat of a time gap where Sauron would ‘see’ their own rings, thus explaining the need to conceal them and not use them.

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

Finally, I have another interesting thought to add about the nature of the One Ring on mortal ringbearers. Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each? What intrigues me is how Sauron was able to ‘see’ into their minds. Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

* sorry about the seemingly ‘wrong’ words, but I can’t find the umlauts on this version of Word.

[Neithan]

What I'm saying is that there indeed was a link with Thingol that made her incarnate herself and be with him in ME.

Oh, I apologize for misrepresenting your position.

I have to strongly disagree with the level of incarnation of Melian and Sauron. Melian is definitely more strongly dependent on her hröa than Sauron. Why? Because she even had a child in that union.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

Are you implying that Sauron was a mere spirit and not incarnate during his time in Númenórë?

No indeed, that would be a rediculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

[drigel]

Nethian/Maedros
I am following you both
Melian giving birth never dawned on me as having an effect on her hroa. Of course that would bind her. Dunno if its equivelent to S's ring. Interesting!

Perhaps Sauron needed to put an immense amount of power into the creation of the One Ring in order to overcome the power of the Elven rings; an amount of power sufficient to make it so that the destruction of the One Ring would be his own downfall?

Lalwende -I concur - (in previous post) I referenced this ealier. For Sauron to have something (elves) he despises so much and intended to control - to be ultimately his undoing by matching, or surpassing, the potency of the wielders.... sweet irony

Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

It seems to me congruous that the palantiri utilized the attributes that are presented in Ósanwe-kenta

Lalwende: your threads are great! keep it up

[Neithan]

Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each?

I have actually not read Osanwe-Kenta so my insight concerning this thread is limited, however I think I can add something here. There is also the possibility that their unusally long life had something to do with their body being harmed. But more importantly I think that it was the connection beween body and spirit that did it. Therefore as their minds were corrupted so were their bodies. This explains several things. There is the quote from Gandalf saying that Bilbo's pity helped him resist fading, just after that Gandalf says that the Ring will be "slow to evil" if Frodo keeps it with the intention of keeping it hidden. Also here is a quote about the Ringwraiths from the Sil,

And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning they fell ...

So you see their intentions have much to do with how long it takes, but eventually their minds (and spirits) are corrupted, and their bodies along with them.

[Maédhros]

I think that the answer to this question might lie in the deception Sauron carried out during the creation of the Rings. As one part of sanwe is unwill, i.e. the ability to close the mind to perception from outside, then he would have needed to carry out some deception in order to prevent those barriers being put up; he would have needed to get the Elves’ trust.

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

Finally, I have another interesting thought to add about the nature of the One Ring on mortal ringbearers. Each of Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo experienced bodily decline from wearing the Ring, so each of them saw their hroa diminish and hence the ‘mantle’ which protected their thoughts. If the fea is united to the hroa in incarnates then wouldn’t this also diminish, thus explaining the mental anguish of each? What intrigues me is how Sauron was able to ‘see’ into their minds. Was this due to the fact that much of his power was invested in the One Ring, or could it be that the Palantiri were in some way created for purposes of osanwe?

I would say that the inverse is correct. While Bilbo and Frodo had the Ring, their body endured more that it's natural span, notice that Bilbo looked very similiar from his adventures in The Hobbit and he was about 111 years old.
I have explained this in another thread. The Ring puts the hröa and fëar against each other. While a mortal fëar after sometime would want to leave the world and it's hröa in time would decay, the ring makes the hröa endure more that it is meant to do, this puts great anguish against the being who has the Ring.
From Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed

But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men.* What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy.

No indeed, that would be a ridiculous assertion. I was speaking of the difference between "incarnated" and "clothed", so when I said "incarnated" what I meant was "bound to his hröa".

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

Looking back on my last post I think I greatly exagerated the difference between Melian and Sauron. Melian was certainly quite dependent on her hröa, but I still think that, because of his special circumstances, Sauron was even more dependent than she was (I am talking about after the Númenórë thing, of course).

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

What is the special circumstance that made Sauron more dependant on his hröa than Melian? Because he had made the One Ring. I think that the Ring gave him more flexibility so that he was able to survive longer without being fully incarnate.

Maybe the Ring should be looked at from another angle. Perhaps to a certain extent, when Sauron created the One Ring, he not only infused a great deal of his power into it, but also his connection to a "physical form"?

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

Also, another thought to do with that: the hröa is not just the physical body, but also, in a sort of complicated way that I can't readily find a quote to, includes the 'mind' and thoughts of the person. So, if the Ring is a part of Sauron's hröa, then it would follow that it has a part in his thoughts and mind, hence the "personification" of the Ring, its seeming consciousness and malevolent will.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into an aberrant thought on my part, but it seems almost plausible...

[Maédhros]

In other words, perhaps to a certain extent, the Ring became Sauron's hröa after its creation? Not a full and complete hröa, obviously, but perhaps a PART of it, in a way, just as it became imbued with part of his power.

Thus, although the destruction of his body (twice) weakened him greatly, he continued to survive, not only because much of his power remained intact elsewhere, but because it remained in a part of his "body" elsewhere? Thus, when Frodo destroyed the Ring, it not only cost Sauron his power, but also the last portion of his hröa.

I have to disagree with this. If what you say is true, then Sauron would always survive if his Ring did, but that is not the case.
From the Letters of JRRT: 246

Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

[Neithan]

I would rather say that when Sauron was using the One Ring and the others the lesser rings (3 Elven, 9 men, 7 dwarves, etc) that somehow the Rings made the wearers of the Ring unable to close their minds from Sauron using the One Ring.

I had a similar thought. I think that in order to use the Rings they had to "open their minds to them" that is, they had to use this "mind power" to use the Rings and so the Rings became tied to that power. And so through the One Ring Sauron could get around their "unwill".
This raises the question, shouldn't Gandalf and others be able to shut their minds to the temptation of the One Ring?

If Sauron himself spent 57 years in Númenórë with a hröa, wouldn't that be time enough for him to become attached to it like Melkor was? I think that it was enough, but it seems that he was able to change the form of his.

57 years is nothing to a Maia, it probably wouldn't make that much difference. If he was able to change the form of his hröa, then he couldn't have had that strong of a bond to it.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Neithan

I think that in order to use the Rings they had to "open their minds to them" that is, they had to use this "mind power" to use the Rings and so the Rings became tied to that power. And so through the One Ring Sauron could get around their "unwill".

This I think is part of the whole essence of why the Rings were created. To the Elves, they must have held some kind of power, or else why would they have been created? They were clearly not symbolic but had a purpose. Repeating the quote I used in my original post:

they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

Tolkien does not directly say what their use was, but this quote hints at it strongly, and hints at the possibility that they were used for purposes of sanwe. How? Because they then had to be hidden from Sauron, and how would he 'know' they were being used if he was at a distance unless they did possess some power?

Another hint at the 'purpose' is here:

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

In Unfinished Tales, there is the following interesting information in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn:

"What would you have then?" said Celebrimbor

"I would have trees and grass about me that do not die - here in the land that is mine," she answered. "What has become of the skill of the Eldar?" And Celebrimbor said "Where now is the stone of Earendil? And Enerdhil who made it is gone."
"They have passed over sea," said Galadriel, "With almost all fair things else. But must then Middle Earth fade and perish for ever?"

"That is its fate I deem," said Celebrimbor. "But you know that I love you (though you turn to Celeborn of the trees), and for that love I will do what I can, if happily by my art your grief can be lessened."

Wielding the Elessar all things grew fair about Galadriel, until the coming of the shadow to the forest. But afterwards when Nenya, her chief of the three was sent her by Celebrimbor, she needed it (as she thought) no more, and she gave it to Celebrian her daughter, and so it came to Arwen and to Aragorn who was called Elessar.

The Elessar was created before the Rings, and it must have held some kind of similar power if she gives it up once she receives Nenya. It also seems to be 'immune' to the power of the One Ring. Does it make use of some kind of sanwe in the creation of Lothlorien? Another question here is whether Celebrimbor creates these things for love of Galadriel, and if he is so easily misled by Sauron because he is working for love of Galadriel and cannot see how he has been deceived? And if the Elessar has a similar power, what does this say about Aragorn's discovery of the White Tree?

[HerenIstarion]

Question of Unwill (how can it be overcome) I have thought about before, but came not to a definitive conclusion. I have a theory, though, which runs as follows:

Maybe, Unwill is not overcome in a strict sense - the breach is allowed for by the person him/herself. Cf:

S77

Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'
And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.
Than Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'
Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know.

I.e. - would Gorlim stand fast, Sauron would not be able to enter his mind, but he let him in, once in, he suspended Gorlim's will to force it all out. The process may be similar with the rings - if the person fails even once, he lets the power into his mind he is not able to get rid of later

And following another piece (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth), it should be concluded that following the Fall, no man is able not to fail.

But the opening key may be deceit - the mind is not forced, but tricked (or, more appropriate here - seduced) to open up a breach.

Besides, having in mind that all matter (of which hröar are built) contains taint of Melkor, and hröar are affecting fëar, it is to be assumed no living being (elves and men alike) has a perfect mind, able not to allow for a breach. Hence, even Gandalf (in incarnate form) fears to take the Ring)

***

As for the Gift of Death and its withdrawal (commenting on human servants who keep leaving not useful), brief comment, dependent on the treatment former King of Angmar threatens Éowyn with:

Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye

It is stated Gift of Eru can not be withdrawn, but we have Nazgûl living on and on. And here, it seems, the explanation is provided for why that should be so. It is another trickery, cheating. Deceit in another form - it seems Sauron learned how to turn flesh into what they call Undead in PC games I may an addict of, not letting the body die, but transforming it, so keeping the sould tied up to it. The Gift of Eru is not, technically, withdrawn - just the object has not died yet. Its a bit like of what effect may be of freezing one's body for infinite time in a fridge (I've heard some rich people practice the process - with the hope of being returned to life in some better future), but retaining operational functions (i.e. ability to move and be conscious) at the same time. The death is postponed, not cancelled.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Heren Istarion

Question of Unwill (how can it be overcome) I have thought about before, but came not to a definitive conclusion. I have a theory, though, which runs as follows:

Maybe, Unwill is not overcome in a strict sense - the breach is allowed for by the person him/herself

This is a good point, and it is also borne out in the Osanwe-kenta itself:

Here he was aided by the simplicity of those unaware of evil, or not yet accustomed to beware of it. And for that reason it was said above that the distinction of openess and active will to entertain was of great importance. For he would come by stealth to a mind open and unwary, hoping to learn some part of its thought before it closed, and still more to implant his own thought, to deceive it and win it to his friendship

This does suggest that if Unwill was not something a being realised they needed to put into play, then it would indeed be too late once Melkor had entered their thoughts. This leads on to one of the many ideas I had after reading Osanwe-kenta, the possibility that Orcs were created by entering the thoughts of innocent Elves (as in, innocent minded, even maybe naive) and enslaved. As the essay states, those who were aware of Melkor were those he most sought to enslave, yet found it hardest to trap; for this reason he made use of language.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

. . .This leads on to one of the many ideas I had after reading Osanwe-kenta, the possibility that Orcs were created by entering the thoughts of innocent Elves (as in, innocent minded, even maybe naive) and enslaved. As the essay states, those who were aware of Melkor were those he most sought to enslave, yet found it hardest to trap; for this reason he made use of language.

Would it be inappropriate if I suggested this idea might profitably be applied to another of our discussions? It would seem here that Tolkien does not admire or advise a wilful blindness to evil. Those who are aware of the existence of evil are those most able to recognise when they are being enticed or manipulated or led away. Knowing how evil operates means one is better able to stand up to it. Those who do not understand evil's existence are those most vulnerable to it.

Would not this suggest that Tolkien would not want readers to shy away from certain knowledge of the orcs' treatment of Celebrian? He intends readers to recognise evil when it is suggested, to educate them, as it were, in its more vile means? I'm referring, of course, to the thread "Celebrian's Misfortunes."

Just a thought.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Knowing how evil operates means one is better able to stand up to it. Those who do not understand evil's existence are those most vulnerable to it.
Would not this suggest that Tolkien would not want readers to shy away from certain knowledge of the orcs' treatment of Celebrian? He intends readers to recognise evil when it is suggested, to educate them, as it were, in its more vile means? I'm referring, of course, to the thread "Celebrian's Misfortunes."

Certainly off-topic, but...

I think Tolkien's position was that we should only 'study' evil to the point that we can recognise it - not that we should go into its nature & pratice in depth. Elrond warns that is is dangerous to study the arts of the Enemy. I suspect that Tolkien would say that knowing that the Orcs 'tormented' Celebrian to the point that she could no longer remain with her beloved husband & children & had to pass into the West is enough, & that to enquire any further into her fate is to risk being 'corrupted' by what one might find out. Its easy to get ideas & images into one's mind, but more difficult to get rid of them.

Personally, the image of Celebrian being raped by orcs is not something I want to imagine - I don't even like writing those words. Whether that makes me overly sensitive I don't know.

I think it is quite possible to be able to recognise evil without studying it in all its graphic detail.

So, while I agree that Tolkien did 'intend readers to recognise evil when it is suggested' I can't agree that he intended 'to educate them, as it were, in its more vile means?'. I think his intention was the opposite. He was fullly aware that the practices of 'evil' were quite commonplace, even in our 'civilised' society, & that it wasn't at all necessary to describe them in detail. What was necessary was to make people aware that such things are evil, & inexcusable. In other words, he wanted us to be aware of what Evil is in its essence, not to educate us in its practice...

[Bêthberry]

You have expressed much better than I did, davem the applicability I saw in Lalwendë's post:

I think Tolkien's position was that we should only 'study' evil to the point that we can recognise it

Much obliged.

[drigel]

Deceit in another form - it seems Sauron learned how to turn flesh into what they call Undead

Heren - your post was great, but I am unsure about the undead thing. I would throw in that the point of the Nazgul form was that there wasnt any flesh. The physical entity IMO was utterly forsaken. The only thing that was bound was the spirit (granted that could take form only if it was clothed or armoured). There was a lot of defiance of Eru going on at that time, but there was no usurping, IMO.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

I think Tolkien's position was that we should only 'study' evil to the point that we can recognise it - not that we should go into its nature & pratice in depth. Elrond warns that is is dangerous to study the arts of the Enemy.

Well said!

And to build on that, remember how Saruman fell: by delving too deeply into the lore of Sauron's power. Sauron's evil. To study evil too closely is to become tempted by evil, and the possibility of turning to evil becomes increasingly strong. Gandalf does not fall, while Saruman does, because he knew better than to study Sauron that deeply. (Okay, there were other reasons too, but this is a biggie.)

[Lalwendë]

I've got to thinking again after reading the comments by davem, Bethberry and Formedacil on evil. Tolkein as a Catholic and Christian would have heard much on the 'nature' of evil by way of his religious beliefs, and one of those could well have been the line of thought that it is best not to go too deeply into the study of evil lest it corrupt the soul into evil itself. This is a common thought amongst many fundamentalists today, who ironically do not always approve of Tolkien!

But applying these comments to the Osanwe-kenta, I'm quite sure that Tolkien was making a point about being aware of and wary of evil; or perhaps suspicious is a better word? But alongside this, he could also have been making a philosophical point about those who allow too much knowledge of evil to eneter their heads. He could have been saying that evil can be manipulative, it can treat you as a 'friend', much in the same way as Melkor does to those he wishes to enslave, and that while we must be aware, we must also not go too far into these matters, in case we too become enslaved.

So, aside from the Osanwe-kenta telling us much new information about Arda, does it also have a metaphorical message for us?

[davem]

I don't know if this is ever so slightly off-topic, but reading the following passage from Osanwe Kenta:

Yet we may mark also how the "affine'' may more quickly understand the lambe* that they use between them, and indeed all that they would say is not put into words. With fewer words they come swifter to a better understanding. There can be no doubt that here osanwe is also often taking place; for the will to converse in lambe is a will to communicate thought, and lays the minds open. It may be, of course, that the two that converse know already part of the matter and the thought of the other upon it, so that only allusions dark to the stranger need be made; but this is not always so. The affine will reach an understanding more swiftly than strangers upon matters that neither have before discussed, and they will more quickly perceive the import of words that, however numerous, well-chosen, and precise, must remain inadequate.

I couldn't help but be reminded of Tolkien's own close friendships, starting with the TCBS: (Rob Gilson, GB Smith & Christopher Wiseman), through the Coalbiters & culminating with the Inklings & with Lewis in particular.

Was this aspect of Osanwe someting that Tolkien had had personal experience of? Did he gift the inhabitants of his creation something that he had known personally , & valued so highly?

* lambe: 'tongue-movement', (way of) using the tongue'; in non-technical use, 'language'; 'a way of talking; dialect', applied to the separate languages of any people or region (Wl:394). In linguistic theory, a tengwesta (q.v.) employing phonetic signs; also 'the way of speaking', i.e. phonetics and phonology (WJ:39S). Cf. also WJ:416 n. 33; LAB- 'lick' (LR:367).

[Petty Dwarf]

Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'
And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.
Then Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'
Now Gorlim would have drawn back, but daunted by the eyes of Sauron he told at last all that he would know.

I don't think this is a good example of sanwe taking place, Heren, but rather dreadful intimidation. Gorlim told Sauron what he wanted to know, but probably with spoken language not thought-transmission. But intimidation like that could make someone drop the guard of Unwill. But it wasn't the case here.

The best example of sanwe (whether aided by rings or not) I can find within the legendarium is, oddly, in Many Partings. It's the convo between Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf.

Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

The greyness of the figures maybe isn't poetic, but relates to some overcoming of their hröar by their fëar(?). If sent thoughts are dimmed "in force and precision" by hröa, does the hröa show any change?

[Maédhros]

A lot can happen when you are off for the weekend.
HI my friend, I liked your post and I would like to enter into a little more detail regarding the Gorlim situation.

From The Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian Recommenced

There now in anguish Gorlim lay:
with bond on neck, on hand and foot,
to bitter torment he was put,
to break his will and him constrain
to buy with treason end of pain.
But naught to them would he reveal
of Barahir, nor break the seal
of faith that on his tongue was laid;
until at last a pause was made,
and one came softly to his stake,
a darkling form that stooped, and spake
to him of Eilinel his wife.
‘Wouldst thou,’ he said, ‘forsake thy life,
who with few words might win release
for her, and thee, and go in peace,
and dwell together far from war,
friends of the King? What wouldst thou more?’
And Gorlim, now long worn with pain,
yearning to see his wife again
(whom well he weened was also caught
in Sauron’s net), allowed the thought
to grow, and faltered in his troth.
Then straight, half willing and half loath,
they brought him to the seat of stone
where Sauron sat. He stood alone
before that dark and dreadful face,
and Sauron said: ‘Come, mortal base!
What do I hear? That thou wouldst dare
to barter with me? Well, speak fair!
What is thy price?’ And Gorlim low
bowed down his head, and with great woe,
word on slow word, at last implored
that merciless and faithless lord
that he might free depart, and might
gain find Eilinel the White,
and dwell with her, and cease from war
against the King. He craved no more.

Then Sauron smiled, and said: ‘Thou thrall!
The price thou askest is but small
for treachery and shame so great!
I grant it surely! Well, I wait:
Come! Speak now swiftly and speak true!’
Then Gorlim wavered, and he drew
half back; but Sauron’s daunting eye
there held him, and he dared not lie:
as he began, so must he wend
from first false step to faithless end:
he all must answer as he could,
betray his lord and brotherhood,
and cease, and fall upon his face.

Then Sauron laughed aloud. ‘Thou base,
thou cringing worm! Stand up,
and hear me! And now drink the cup
that I have sweetly blent for thee!
Thou fool: a phantom thou didst see
that I, I Sauron, made to snare
thy lovesick wits. Naught else was there.
Cold ‘tis with Sauron’s wraiths to wed!
Thy Eilinel! She is long since dead,
dead, food of worms less low than thou.
And yet thy boon I grant thee now:
to Eilinel thou soon shalt go,
and lie in her bed, no more to know
of war - or manhood. Have thy pay!'

I have to agree with your comment HI, but there are a few things that I would like to add. First that Gorlim was tortured and that may make a person reveal something that would not otherwise would.
We know that torture alone was not sufficient for Gorlim so Sauron tricked him into the illusion that if he would betray Barahir and Co. he would have his love back. That he was after that point unable to offer Sauron resistance is I think because of the fear of Sauron being there. Remember that if Sauron did indeed could "see" into his mind, he wouldn't have needed to have Gorlim tell him, he could have retrieved the information himself.
From Ósanw-kenta

Therefore he sought means to circumvent the únat and the unwill. And this weapon he found in "language". For we speak now of the Incarnate, the Eruhíni whom he most desired to subjugate in Eru's despite. Their bodies being of Eä are subject to force; and their spirits, being united to their bodies in love and solicitude, are subject to fear on their behalf. And their language, though it comes from the spirit or mind, operates through and with the body: it is not the sáma nor its sanwe, but it may express the sanwe in its mode and according to its capacity. Upon the body and upon the indweller, therefore, such pressure and such fear may be exerted that the incarnate person may be forced to speak.

Thus by deceit, by lies, by torment of the body and the spirit, by the threat of torment to others well loved, or by the sheer terror of his presence, Melkor ever sought to force the Incarnate that fell into his power, or came within his reach, to speak and to tell him all that he would know. But his own Lie begot an endless progeny of lies.
By this means he has destroyed many, he has caused treacheries untold, and he has gained knowledge of secrets to his great advantage and the undoing of his enemies. But this is not by entering the mind, or by reading it as it is, in its despite. Nay, for great though the knowledge that he gained, behind the words (even of those in fear and torment) dwells ever the sáma inviolable: the words are not in it, though they may proceed from it (as cries from behind a locked door); they must be judged and assessed for what truth may be in them.

It is stated Gift of Eru can not be withdrawn, but we have Nazgûl living on and on. And here, it seems, the explanation is provided for why that should be so. It is another trickery, cheating. Deceit in another form - it seems Sauron learned how to turn flesh into what they call Undead in PC games I may an addict of, not letting the body die, but transforming it, so keeping the sould tied up to it. The Gift of Eru is not, technically, withdrawn - just the object has not died yet. Its a bit like of what effect may be of freezing one's body for infinite time in a fridge (I've heard some rich people practice the process - with the hope of being returned to life in some better future), but retaining operational functions (i.e. ability to move and be conscious) at the same time. The death is postponed, not cancelled.

You have nailed it my friend.

57 years is nothing to a Maia, it probably wouldn't make that much difference. If he was able to change the form of his hröa, then he couldn't have had that strong of a bond to it.

Probably in his 57 years in Númenórë he used the same hröa, so it could have an effect because he had already diverted some of his power in the Ring.