Your doom lies in your name, not in yourself....

[Manardariel]

Now most of you will go "Wait... no, no, that´s wrong.. it´s switched around..."
It´s very nice you noticed, BUT I´m not talking about Turin. I´m talking about one person who´s doom did lay in her name. I´m talking about Arwen, Now you´re going to say "So? What about her?". I´ll tell you...

Some rather simple elvish, from the sil Appendix:
Ar-: high, kingly, royal
-wen: girl, women, lady. Also a common ending of femine names.

So actually, Arwen´s name means king´s women. And king´s women, is a synonym for king´s wife!!!! And what was Arwen? The KING´S WIFE!
So, you see my point. Arwqen´s name was a foreboding of her future. But who gave that name to her? Who already knew what this girls destiny would be? And if Elrond named his daughter(or let her be named) such an expressive name, you really feel ike asking: "Well then why was he so suprised that she fell in love with Aragorn. And why did he try to stop their love, theor relationship?
What do you think?

[The Saucepan Man]

... or it could just be that her name means "lady of noble birth" which, as Elrond's daughter, she was. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

When did Elrond try to prohibit their love for each other?

[Bill Ferny]

RotK, Appendix A, v.

Elrond to Aragorn:

You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it… But I do not speak of my daughter alone. You shall be betrothed to no man’s child as yet…

Albeit conditional and, as it turned out, temporary, it is still an injunction. Only if Aragorn is found worthy, will Elrond allow the “bitter parting” between he and his daughter.

[Greyhame]

It's in the movies too, guys, come on...

But seriously, I don't really agree that Arwen's name somehow was a self-fulfilling prophecy or anything of the like. My guess is that she was thus named with the hope that she COULD one day be a queen, uniting the kindreds of Elves and Men.

Just a guess on my part, though.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Tolkien often did this with words. Another example is Lobelia Sackville-Baggins. Her first name means 'malevolence.'

Things like that aren't coincidence.

[-Imrahil-]

But guys, come on, Lobelia wasn't really ALL that bad! After all in the Scouring of the Shire it turns out she really is a nice old soul, just alittle misunderstood, that's all.

[ January 16, 2003: Message edited by: -Imrahil- ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

I still think Tolkien had tongue in cheek when he picked that name, and Lobelia goes all the way back to The Hobbit.

[Salocin]

You guys are forgetting that the Westron of Middle Earth was translated into English and Anglasized before being published in Tolkien's books. Tolkein may have adapted Lobelia's name to "Lobelia" as a sort of a phonological joke.

As far as Arwen's name goes, I'm with the people who say it meant noble lady. Manardariel admitted Ar can mean "high" as in noble of birth.

The real question is why Arwen has a manish root in her name. "Ar" meant kingly in the tongue of the Numenorians. When they began to turn away from the west, the kings used this in their names, Ar-Andunakor, Ar Zimrathon,...,Ar-Pharazon, and it can be seen in Aragorn's name as well as those of other desendents of Isildur. Before they turned away, the kings of Numenor used "Tar-" the elvish equivalent, so why isn't Arwen's name Tarwen?

[Greyhame]

Because Arwen sounds better.

[doug*platypus]

What do you think?

I think the greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love and be loved in return.

Oh, wait... #$^% accursed subliminal messages!

I have believed for quite a while now that you grow into your name. When someone finds out your name, or whenever they think of it or use it, it somewhat affects their image of you. Think Michael. Do you have a preconceived notion of what a Michael looks like, or how a Michael acts? Maybe not a good example because there are so many different famous Michaels. But I do believe that how someone sees you is influence in a small way by your name (or the nickname they use for you), and this in turn can affect the way you act, as you subconsciously come to embrace fulfil the image that people have of you.

Of course, Manardariel, someone has already tried this with Boromir and it didn't seem to work.

[Sharkû]

Elrond did not try to "stop their love, theor [sic] relationship". This is a movie image that does not apply like that to the Books.

Elrond was prophecising when he said that Aragorn would not have a wife yet, and it is clear that Elrond's foresight was correct.

If anything, that fact could only support the theory that Arwen's name was given in foresight to her future. However, it is also to be noted that with a high probability, that, judging from the respective texts we know dealing with Elven nomenclature, Arwen was a mother-name and not given by Elrond anyway.

[Sapphire_Flame]

Tolkein may have adapted Lobelia's name to "Lobelia" as a sort of a phonological joke.

Actually, I think Lobelia is also a plant name.

[Bill Ferny]

Sharkû,

Prophesy, given. But prophesy, as opposed to fortune telling, always carries with it an applicability with the present. Elrond’s prophesy clearly includes an injunction with the words “you shall neither have a wife, nor bind…”

Elrond’s prophesy immediately affected the present, as is clearly seen by Aragorn taking leave of Rivendell and going into the wilds for thirty years to labor in the cause against Sauron. He then returns to Rivendell and Arwen then gives her choice to ply her troth with Aragorn.

Elrond then prophesizes again:

“Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life’s grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of Gondor and Arnor.”

Once again Elrond’s prophesy is not mere fortune telling, for it induces Aragorn to once again go forth “to danger and toil.” Of course, the events of the War of Ring take place, and the terms of Elrond’s prophesy are fulfilled. No matter how you look at this, however, there is an injunction against Aragorn taking Arwen for his wife, until the terms are fulfilled.

On this forum there is a continual catch phrase: “… is a movie image” or “…is from the movie and not the books.” Perhaps the movie went too far in showing Elrond’s injunction and not enough of the prophesy that went along with it. But to say that the Elrond of the books did not in any way hinder a relationship between Aragorn and Arwen is simply erroneous.

Edit: corrected my rather annoying tendency to spell Rivendell, Rivendale

[ January 18, 2003: Message edited by: Bill Ferny ]

[Galorme]

Isn't it every person's wish (or it was a while ago) that their daughter would wed a man of noble birth. Elrond may not have wanted her to wed a King of Men, maybe just an elf of noble blood.

Another thing is that the name could have been given in retrospect, adapted into the stories by men much later (cf the Shivering Falls, or Shuddering Waters, or whatever, the name of the place where Turin and his sister die).

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkein may have adapted Lobelia's name to "Lobelia" as a sort of a phonological joke.

Might there be any connection between Bilbo's favourite relative and one of the insults that he hurls to the spiders of Mirkwood: "Lazy Lob"?

[Mister Underhill]

Following up on Sharkû's notation that "Arwen" was a mother-name, there's this interesting bit from HoME X:

Mothers often gave to their children special names of their own choosing. The most notable of these were the 'names of insight', essi tercenye, or of 'foresight', apacenyë. In the hour of birth, or on some other occasion of moment, the mother might give a name to her child, indicating some dominant feature of its nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate. These names had authority, and were regarded as true names when solemnly given, and were public not private if placed (as was sometimes done) immediately after the father-name.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]