A Tribute To Evil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lily Bombadil · 07-25-2003, 02:59 PM

As people who intake The Lord of the Rings, we usually sit around praising the good guys & cursing the bad guys. I personally think that we should admire the eccentric qualities of the evil forces of Middle-earth. For example:
Grima Wormtongue is a slimy, disgusting, no-good fiend, but I think we should be able to admire the fact that he's sooo ugly he's probably never been mugged because he'd scare away his attackers.
Saruman is a low-down, dirty, traitorous dog, but if he weren't as smart as he is (or was) he would never have been able to use his orc slaves and palantir to build an Uruk-hai army! (Sure Sauron gave the orders, but if Saruman was dumb the Uruks never would have happened.)

So I'll leave the rest up to you guys. And remember: everyone has something admirable about them, even evil guys! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 07-25-2003, 03:17 PM

Sauron: The ultimate evil!!!!!! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Good thing about him: he is powerful and clever (how else could he almost succeed in ruling the world?)

Denethor (not a traditional bad character, I know. And don't kill me, Meela!): He loved Boromir, at least, and he loved Faramir, too, even though he himself didn't really know it at first. So he couldn't have been quite as bad as all that if he still loved and cared for his own children!

Gollum: Um... he was redeemable? (We think).

Lily Bombadil · 07-25-2003, 03:39 PM

Gollum had two selves: the self he started out as (Smeagol) and the self he became due to the Ring(Gollum). If he didn't have the Smeagol self, he might have killed Sam & possibly even Frodo. See? Split personality isn't necessarily a bad thing! A Tribute to Smeagol/Gollum (Smeagollum as I sometimes say)!

Esgallhugwen · 07-25-2003, 03:39 PM

My personal thought for the bad guys and this can go for any story is that without bad guys there can't be any good guys so there would be nothing nothing to fight for how boring!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Meela · 07-26-2003, 05:23 AM

Denethor: God.

Grima: Great guy, picked on all his life probably, needs a super-hug. *hugsies*

Sauron: He has all the fun.

Saruman: I never really took an interest in the guy full stop. But he's not too bad. He has a great home. I love the crisp, sharp black. And I want the number of his manicurist.

Everdawn · 07-26-2003, 05:26 AM

Yeah.. no one ever praises the bad guys... *stands up waving a fist**
Go Grima! good for you son!...

Vuelve · 07-26-2003, 12:17 PM

Well I've always had a soft spot for bad guys,but I must say The Eye of Sauron has always been one of my favs(note my avatar).It's just so big and pokeable you can't help but love it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] How cool is it that although he has only one eye he has better eyesight than anyone else??? hehe [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

~Peace~Love~&~Flaming~Eyes~
Vuelve

Oddwen · 07-26-2003, 02:46 PM

Three cheers for Saruman! His wonderful voice! He's tall, dark and plainly hansome. Quite the gentleman, if you ask me.

And Grima? He's cute! Snuggly even.

Good guys? Boring.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 07-26-2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Sauron: He has all the fun.

My thoughts exactly! Wouldn't you just love to be a dark lord?

The Balrog: He was misunderstood. Maybe he was just lonely and wanted to say hi. Maybe he recognized Gandalf from the Timeless Halls, and wanted to chat a bit. But nooooo, everyone had to be all scared of him and everything. He was probably just playing with a bit of string he found that caught on fire, and everyone freaked out because they thought it was a flaming whip. Maybe he was Gandlaf's former classmate, or his dance teacher (see the Make Your Own Crazy Scene With Pics thread.) So you see, he was just misunderstood. Poor guy. He just needed a hug. Being evil doesn't make you a bad balrog! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tinuviel of Denton · 07-26-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Sauron: The ultimate evil!!!!!!

No, no, my dear. You forgot Morgoth. He was the ultimate evil. The smartest, most powerful, and best actor in all of the Books. I mean, think about it. He and Manwe were brothers in the thought of Iluvatar, though Melkor (as he was known then) was the more powerful of the two. And you've got to admire the guy's brain! He managed to steal the Silmarilli and came even closer to taking over the world than did Sauron. He managed to sow discord in Valinor itself! And he managed to convincingly pretend to have repented for at least a thousand years. Poor guy was just having a bad day when he got thrown into the Void forever...

And let's not forget the Nazgul. Those guys are just creepy.

And Feanor, even though he's not evil per se. He did do major damage though. His good traits were bravery, loyalty, and self-confidence. And he was an amazing craftsman.

Old Man Willow. Who could hate a hobbit-eating tree?

Lëowen · 07-26-2003, 07:17 PM

Hooray for the Nazgul! They are, in my opinion, some of the most interesting 'creatures' in the books.

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 07-26-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

No, no, my dear. You forgot Morgoth. He was the ultimate evil.

Okay, okay you're right. I guess I did forget Morgoth, as I was thinking in an LOTR sense. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] Silly me! Alright, amend that to Sauron: The Ultimate evil in LOTR!

Morgoth: Ummmm, good qualities, let's see. He was intelligent, powerful, resourceful and determined. He always strove for what he thought was right (he just had different views on "right" than the rest of us do [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). He liked black, and black is a pretty color. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] And he corrupted the balrogs, who are cool. So anyone who created dragons and corrupted balrogs has got to be at least sort of cool.

Horse-Maiden of the Shire · 07-27-2003, 10:58 AM

Balrogs, because you can use them to roast marshmallows.

Sauron 666 · 07-27-2003, 02:43 PM

If it wasn't for bad guys in LOTR, almost all the Extreme Metal bands wouldn't have names [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Lily Bombadil · 07-27-2003, 10:28 PM

About Old Man Willow, I bet he was just hungry! I mean, no one had been by in a while & he couldn't eat Tom. Besides, if you got on the good side of Old Man Willow, you could get him to eat your homework and your enemies!

P.S. Everyone, try to keep this from becoming a list or it'll get shut down quick. Thanksesss, my preciousesss! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Everdawn · 07-28-2003, 12:42 AM

No!!! Feanor... how could i forget my fav. elf in the whole thing!!! NOw he was bad, but i luuuuuv him!!! he just has the best attitude ever!, ok call me crazy... he was very evil after all, but still.

Lily Bombadil · 07-28-2003, 11:46 AM

The Ring. We must remember the Ring. Sure it was evil, but it had the power to overtake just about anyone(I stress the just about). I mean, imagine! An inanimate object that can corrupt someone into a slimy gollum-like creature! How cool could that be?

We mustn't forget barrow-wights. Those dudes are wicked! I mean, they get around without being seen unless you look carefully. And they can just swoop down upon you and take you to their barrows before you can figure out what's happening. Mucho abilities, man! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Luthien_ Tinuviel · 07-28-2003, 03:39 PM

Why would this site be called the Barrow-Downs if Barrow-Wights weren't the height of all creepiness, right up there with Ringwraiths and the Silent Watchers? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

purplefluffychainsaw · 07-29-2003, 05:29 AM

Err... **Coughs** Hello!!! You missed out the best of all - the dragons!!! Who could but love those dispicable beings (Thats cantridicting, isn't it...) with firey breath. Thing of his Smaugness and all the helpless dwarves he slaughtered... Ah! The dragons! **Pays tribute to the dragons**

Hmm... who else has been missed out? I beleive the goblins from the hobbit are missing. Poor goblins **Hugs goblins** After all, who else would have had the courage to waylay the party of mean dwarves going to steal Smaug's treasure.

Caradhras: Ah, the mountain of evil. Such an evil being. So strong and... mountiny

Okay, thats all I can think of... for now... I will be back MWHAHAHA

Going to take my pills now...

Namarie

~ Purple

Feanor of the Peredhil · 07-29-2003, 08:35 PM

Ah, Evil. What a boring world this would be without a few bad guys to bring out the good in everything else! My tribute to the bad guys (or at least a few of them)

Melkor: all he wanted to do was sing counter-point! And he rid the world of so many Elves... nasty nancing little devils...

Sauron: ambition is very important!

Saruman: he's got that grooming thing down very well. Must have a schedule; hair straightening: 10:30, manicure: 11:00.

Sackville-Bagginses: Bilbo had too many spoons anyway.

Balrogs: the inspiration for flashlights.

Duncariel · 07-29-2003, 08:55 PM

Morgoth was the original schemer behind the whole "Take over Middle Earth" campaign. I can just see his slogan... Today ME, Tomorrow, The World!

Feanor is another of my personal favorites. His clever stupidity was by far one of his most interesting traits. I love it.

Lily Bombadil · 07-30-2003, 06:43 PM

Quote:

**Hugs goblins**

I can just see the look on those goblins' faces as P.F.C. hugs them...

Yes, P.F.C., I think you are coming along quite nicely. There is hope for the dominion of evil yet!

I quite agree that dragons are delightfully despicable. They are also magnificent marshmallow roasters.

You know what, Purplefluffychainsaw? I think that foolish Peregrin Took would make a wonderful mindless minion! After all, he's already stupid, so we won't have much to do! Come! Let us corrupt him! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Elennar Starfire · 07-31-2003, 01:37 PM

I think the nazgul have great fashion sense, they have the coolest billowy black robes I have ever seen!

Also the ring, it is so shiny and golden...
(I think I am related to a magpie, somehow. Shiny stuff...)

Daisy Brambleburr · 08-01-2003, 01:22 PM

The Balrog is *so* misunderstood. Picture the scene: you're sitting in your cosy little stone cavern far under the ground having tea and cakes with some of your orc chums when some bozo throws a big old stone down a well and disturbs your peace. Well, being a ferocius fell beast he did what any ferocius fell beast would do. How can you blame him??? How???

Arwen Evenstar · 08-01-2003, 07:47 PM

Boromir wasn`t exactly a bad guy until he tried to Frodo, but, hey, atleast he tried to save Merry and Pippin.

Lily Bombadil · 08-01-2003, 08:10 PM

Daisy Brambleburr, I love your use of the word "bozo". It really applies.

As for Boromir, we can attribute that bit of evil action to the Ring. Once again, evil inanimate objects RULE! Especially if they're shiny...... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Maegaladiel · 08-06-2003, 12:34 AM

Hear hear!

Sauron wasn't REALLY such a bad guy. All that "Take-over-the-world" stuff must have some distant link to his childhood. I mean, come on! If your mommie made YOU wear an iron jumpsuit to school everyday, after a while, you'd feel pretty fed up, too! World domination would sound pretty nice.

And once he's a giant red eye, nobody can figure out that he's really just asking for a bottle of eye drops, not "i want to take over the world!". If your eye was dry and itchy all of the time, you'd be pretty cranky too! And you have to consider how frusterating it must be to be an all-seeing eye that doesn't have depth perception! No wonder he couldn't tell where Frodo was! He could see him, but couldn't tell if he was a hundred MILES or a hundred FEET away with only one eye! Poor old guy. Ok, I'm done ranting.

MAEGALADIEL
Please donate generously to Maegaladiel's Foundation for Nearsighted Elves.

07-25-2003, 02:59 PM	#1
Lily Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hold on...let me consult this broken compass... Posts: 279	A Tribute To Evil As people who intake The Lord of the Rings, we usually sit around praising the good guys & cursing the bad guys. I personally think that we should admire the eccentric qualities of the evil forces of Middle-earth. For example: Grima Wormtongue is a slimy, disgusting, no-good fiend, but I think we should be able to admire the fact that he's sooo ugly he's probably never been mugged because he'd scare away his attackers. Saruman is a low-down, dirty, traitorous dog, but if he weren't as smart as he is (or was) he would never have been able to use his orc slaves and palantir to build an Uruk-hai army! (Sure Sauron gave the orders, but if Saruman was dumb the Uruks never would have happened.) So I'll leave the rest up to you guys. And remember: everyone has something admirable about them, even evil guys! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "YOU!" "Indeed."

07-25-2003, 03:17 PM	#2
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	Sauron: The ultimate evil!!!!!! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Good thing about him: he is powerful and clever (how else could he almost succeed in ruling the world?) Denethor (not a traditional bad character, I know. And don't kill me, Meela!): He loved Boromir, at least, and he loved Faramir, too, even though he himself didn't really know it at first. So he couldn't have been quite as bad as all that if he still loved and cared for his own children! Gollum: Um... he was redeemable? (We think). __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

07-25-2003, 03:39 PM	#3
Lily Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hold on...let me consult this broken compass... Posts: 279	Gollum had two selves: the self he started out as (Smeagol) and the self he became due to the Ring(Gollum). If he didn't have the Smeagol self, he might have killed Sam & possibly even Frodo. See? Split personality isn't necessarily a bad thing! A Tribute to Smeagol/Gollum (Smeagollum as I sometimes say)! __________________ "YOU!" "Indeed."

07-25-2003, 03:39 PM	#4
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	My personal thought for the bad guys and this can go for any story is that without bad guys there can't be any good guys so there would be nothing nothing to fight for how boring!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"

07-26-2003, 05:23 AM	#5
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Denethor: God. Grima: Great guy, picked on all his life probably, needs a super-hug. hugsies Sauron: He has all the fun. Saruman: I never really took an interest in the guy full stop. But he's not too bad. He has a great home. I love the crisp, sharp black. And I want the number of his manicurist. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-26-2003, 05:26 AM	#6
Everdawn Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the sand dunes outside of Ilium, watching it burn. Posts: 1,291	Yeah.. no one ever praises the bad guys... stands up waving a fist* Go Grima! good for you son!... __________________ "Athena, stepping up behind him, visible to no one but Achillies, gripped his red-gold hair. Startled he made a half turn, and he knew her upon the instant for Athena." ~The Iliad~ ~My lord, Éomer~

07-26-2003, 12:17 PM	#7
Vuelve Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: A portal to an alternate dimension at your local Wal-Mart store. Posts: 161	Well I've always had a soft spot for bad guys,but I must say The Eye of Sauron has always been one of my favs(note my avatar).It's just so big and pokeable you can't help but love it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] How cool is it that although he has only one eye he has better eyesight than anyone else??? hehe [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ~Peace~Love~&~Flaming~Eyes~ Vuelve __________________ Now, what do you own the world? How do you own disorder? Disorder! - Toxicity-System of A Down

07-26-2003, 02:46 PM	#8
Oddwen Drummer in the Deep Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Next Sunday A.D. Posts: 2,125	Three cheers for Saruman! His wonderful voice! He's tall, dark and plainly hansome. Quite the gentleman, if you ask me. And Grima? He's cute! Snuggly even. Good guys? Boring. __________________ But all the while I sit and think of times there were before I listen for returning feet and voices at the door

07-26-2003, 07:17 PM	#11
Lëowen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: my computer chair, being smothered by my impossibly large cat Posts: 93	Hooray for the Nazgul! They are, in my opinion, some of the most interesting 'creatures' in the books. __________________ Be individual! Join the millions of other people also being individual! Prevent Merry Abuse! Join S.A.M!

07-27-2003, 10:58 AM	#13
Horse-Maiden of the Shire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chillaxin' with Glorfindel-441 miles on the RtR Posts: 1,197	Balrogs, because you can use them to roast marshmallows. __________________ "There's a big...machine in the sky...some kind of electric snake...coming straight at us." "Shoot it," said my attorney. "Not yet...I want to study its habits."

07-27-2003, 02:43 PM	#14
Sauron 666 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 59	If it wasn't for bad guys in LOTR, almost all the Extreme Metal bands wouldn't have names [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk Ash Nazg Gimbatul Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk Arg Burzum-Ishi Krimpatul

07-27-2003, 10:28 PM	#15
Lily Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hold on...let me consult this broken compass... Posts: 279	About Old Man Willow, I bet he was just hungry! I mean, no one had been by in a while & he couldn't eat Tom. Besides, if you got on the good side of Old Man Willow, you could get him to eat your homework and your enemies! P.S. Everyone, try to keep this from becoming a list or it'll get shut down quick. Thanksesss, my preciousesss! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "YOU!" "Indeed."

07-28-2003, 12:42 AM	#16
Everdawn Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the sand dunes outside of Ilium, watching it burn. Posts: 1,291	No!!! Feanor... how could i forget my fav. elf in the whole thing!!! NOw he was bad, but i luuuuuv him!!! he just has the best attitude ever!, ok call me crazy... he was very evil after all, but still. __________________ "Athena, stepping up behind him, visible to no one but Achillies, gripped his red-gold hair. Startled he made a half turn, and he knew her upon the instant for Athena." ~The Iliad~ ~My lord, Éomer~

07-28-2003, 11:46 AM	#17
Lily Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hold on...let me consult this broken compass... Posts: 279	The Ring. We must remember the Ring. Sure it was evil, but it had the power to overtake just about anyone(I stress the just about). I mean, imagine! An inanimate object that can corrupt someone into a slimy gollum-like creature! How cool could that be? We mustn't forget barrow-wights. Those dudes are wicked! I mean, they get around without being seen unless you look carefully. And they can just swoop down upon you and take you to their barrows before you can figure out what's happening. Mucho abilities, man! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ "YOU!" "Indeed."

07-28-2003, 03:39 PM	#18
Luthien_ Tinuviel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: A very lovely tree-hut in the Chunnel. Posts: 804	Why would this site be called the Barrow-Downs if Barrow-Wights weren't the height of all creepiness, right up there with Ringwraiths and the Silent Watchers? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ I am a nineteen-year-old nomad photographer who owns a lemonade stand. You know what? I love Mip.

07-29-2003, 05:29 AM	#19
purplefluffychainsaw Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a very cold place.... Posts: 162	Err... Coughs Hello!!! You missed out the best of all - the dragons!!! Who could but love those dispicable beings (Thats cantridicting, isn't it...) with firey breath. Thing of his Smaugness and all the helpless dwarves he slaughtered... Ah! The dragons! Pays tribute to the dragons Hmm... who else has been missed out? I beleive the goblins from the hobbit are missing. Poor goblins Hugs goblins After all, who else would have had the courage to waylay the party of mean dwarves going to steal Smaug's treasure. Caradhras: Ah, the mountain of evil. Such an evil being. So strong and... mountiny Okay, thats all I can think of... for now... I will be back MWHAHAHA Going to take my pills now... Namarie ~ Purple __________________ Love, Drugs and Fairy Boys ~ SAM

07-29-2003, 08:35 PM	#20
Feanor of the Peredhil La Belle Dame sans Merci Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perpetual uncertainty Posts: 5,517	Ah, Evil. What a boring world this would be without a few bad guys to bring out the good in everything else! My tribute to the bad guys (or at least a few of them) Melkor: all he wanted to do was sing counter-point! And he rid the world of so many Elves... nasty nancing little devils... Sauron: ambition is very important! Saruman: he's got that grooming thing down very well. Must have a schedule; hair straightening: 10:30, manicure: 11:00. Sackville-Bagginses: Bilbo had too many spoons anyway. Balrogs: the inspiration for flashlights. __________________ peace

07-29-2003, 08:55 PM	#21
Duncariel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of the Ice and Snow Posts: 226	Morgoth was the original schemer behind the whole "Take over Middle Earth" campaign. I can just see his slogan... Today ME, Tomorrow, The World! Feanor is another of my personal favorites. His clever stupidity was by far one of his most interesting traits. I love it. __________________ Middle-earth: Insanity "What, the peons aren't trusted?" -- Yazoo, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children

07-31-2003, 01:37 PM	#23
Elennar Starfire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere...now here Posts: 952	I think the nazgul have great fashion sense, they have the coolest billowy black robes I have ever seen! Also the ring, it is so shiny and golden... (I think I am related to a magpie, somehow. Shiny stuff...) __________________ Don't let me die!

08-01-2003, 01:22 PM	#24
Daisy Brambleburr Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 334	The Balrog is so misunderstood. Picture the scene: you're sitting in your cosy little stone cavern far under the ground having tea and cakes with some of your orc chums when some bozo throws a big old stone down a well and disturbs your peace. Well, being a ferocius fell beast he did what any ferocius fell beast would do. How can you blame him??? How??? __________________ 'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.'

08-01-2003, 07:47 PM	#25
Arwen Evenstar Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 131	Boromir wasn`t exactly a bad guy until he tried to Frodo, but, hey, atleast he tried to save Merry and Pippin.

08-01-2003, 08:10 PM	#26
Lily Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Hold on...let me consult this broken compass... Posts: 279	Daisy Brambleburr, I love your use of the word "bozo". It really applies. As for Boromir, we can attribute that bit of evil action to the Ring. Once again, evil inanimate objects RULE! Especially if they're shiny...... [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] __________________ "YOU!" "Indeed."

08-06-2003, 12:34 AM	#27
Maegaladiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Around and About Posts: 82	Hear hear! Sauron wasn't REALLY such a bad guy. All that "Take-over-the-world" stuff must have some distant link to his childhood. I mean, come on! If your mommie made YOU wear an iron jumpsuit to school everyday, after a while, you'd feel pretty fed up, too! World domination would sound pretty nice. And once he's a giant red eye, nobody can figure out that he's really just asking for a bottle of eye drops, not "i want to take over the world!". If your eye was dry and itchy all of the time, you'd be pretty cranky too! And you have to consider how frusterating it must be to be an all-seeing eye that doesn't have depth perception! No wonder he couldn't tell where Frodo was! He could see him, but couldn't tell if he was a hundred MILES or a hundred FEET away with only one eye! Poor old guy. Ok, I'm done ranting. MAEGALADIEL Please donate generously to Maegaladiel's Foundation for Nearsighted Elves. __________________ OK, which one of you wise guys bought Denethor a flame thrower?!? I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I can tell a hawk from a handsaw. GET THEE TO A NUNNERY!