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Old 04-27-2010, 12:23 AM   #1
Urwen
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Silmaril Did Maedhros kill Laughter?

But wise were still concerned that Maedhros revealed his growing strength too early "Always some new evil might be born in Angband."

_________________________________

....for Evil breath came to Dor-Lomin...and when Turin rose, he asked for Lalaith...and when Morwen came, he said "I'm not sick anymore and I want to see Urwen;but why can't I call her Lalaith anymore?"
"Because Lalaith's dead and no more laughter is here." answered Morwen.


Really,did Maedhros kill Laughter?
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:33 AM   #2
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No, Morgoth did.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:59 PM   #3
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Indeed. I don't think that questions like that have much sense - it's like asking "Did Elrond kill Gandalf?" or something like that.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:30 PM   #4
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So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live?

Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:31 PM   #5
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Or, in more words: the only way Maedhros could construably be blamed for Lalaith's death would be if by better timing his attacks he could have defeated Morgoth in time to prevent the ill wind and the plague being sent. But as Mandos made clear when the Noldor left Valinor, they never had a hope of overcoming Morgoth without the help of the Valar, no matter how great their prowess and courage and how cunning their strategies might be. So if anybody else than Morgoth is to blame, it would be the Valar for setting him free in the first place, and for taking so long to come to the help of the Eldar and Edain after his return to Middle-earth.

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Old 04-27-2010, 03:16 PM   #6
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So the base question is, if everyone had just given up and stopped opposing Morgoth, would he have let them live?

Given what Tolkien says about his nature in Morgoth's Ring- no. Morgoth wished to destroy all life. Ask the question about Sauron on the other hand- perhaps.
Oh yes, Sauron would have been happy to have everyone as his slaves. Especially The Wise.
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Old 04-28-2010, 03:35 AM   #7
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No, Morgoth did.

Yes,but he would have no reason to send plague if Maedhros never formed his Union. Therefore, Maedhros is to be blamed for death of Lalaith.
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Old 04-28-2010, 05:39 AM   #8
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Yes,but he would have no reason to send plague if Maedhros never formed his Union. Therefore, Maedhros is to be blamed for death of Lalaith.
By that logic, it could be said that Aragorn, who by his use of the Stone of Orthanc revealed himself to Sauron, caused the deaths of untold hundreds or thousands of Gondorians and Rohirrim at the Battle of the Pelannor.
After all, if Aragorn hadn't done so, Sauron would not have set his plans in motion so soon, and the attack probably wouldn't have proceeded as as it did.

And what of Bilbo, who roused Smaug from his slumber? Smaug went on to destroy Esgaroth. Was Bilbo responsible for that?
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Old 04-28-2010, 05:47 AM   #9
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Sauron was destroyed. Smaug was killed. Was plague made harmless?
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:31 AM   #10
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Sauron was destroyed. Smaug was killed. Was plague made harmless?
What does this have to do with anything? It doesn't make sense to arbitrarily assign responsibility to some agent down the chain of causation on the basis of some positive, yet entirely unrelated, consequences of a later date.

Still, that Lalaith was always accidentally stepping on bugs on the step of her house so from their point of view - thanks Maedhros!
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:18 AM   #11
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Silmaril

Still, that Lalaith was always accidentally stepping on bugs on the step of her house so from their point of view - thanks Maedhros!

wrath wrath warath... How dare you insult Lalaith ?!

Accidentally stepping on bugs. Unlike Maedhros, she never stepped on heads, nor caused blood of Tuor and her other kinsmen to flow down the landscape of Dor-Lomin!

see for yourself:

Elwing: Dude,had cousin of my husband's father ever practised kinslaying?
Maedhros: Not that I remember,no...
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:13 AM   #12
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Accidentally stepping on bugs. Unlike Maedhros, she never stepped on heads, nor caused blood of Tuor and her other kinsmen to flow down the landscape of Dor-Lomin!
Well, exactly. Maedhros ends up having quite enough terrible deeds to his name without you throwing in extremely indirect and dubious stuff like that.

And you see, Urwen, about the bugs Lalaith stepped on– I happen to know one of them was a butterfly. Had that butterfly only lived, many insect-generations later one of its remote descendants would have flittered in front of Nienor's eyes and distracted her from being hypnotised by Glaurung.

There you have it: the incest and suicide of her brother and sister are clearly all Lalaith's fault.

I rest my case.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:03 PM   #13
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You're babbling nonsense. Besides, had Lalaith lived, she would put herself between Glaurung and Niniel. So, I think the things for which you blame my namesake are actually Maedhros' fault
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:22 PM   #14
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There's always someone else for you to blame...
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Old 04-28-2010, 01:31 PM   #15
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You're babbling nonsense.
I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.

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Besides, had Lalaith lived, she would put herself between Glaurung and Niniel.
...become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:16 PM   #16
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...become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?
Of course not. Don't you see? If Lalaith had survived, she'd have tied Glaurung into a knot before going on to single-handedly defeat Morgoth and retrieve the remaining two Silmaril while fending off the futile attacks of the seven sons of Feanor with the other hand, and then... well, I don't know how she could have topped that, but she was just that freaking awesome that Tolkien simply had to kill her off before she could ruin the whole Silmarillion.
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:20 PM   #17
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...become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?
I heard that's what PJ's doing for the film version....
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:30 PM   #18
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Of course not. Don't you see? If Lalaith had survived, she'd have tied Glaurung into a knot before going on to single-handedly defeat Morgoth and retrieve the remaining two Silmaril while fending off the futile attacks of the seven sons of Feanor with the other hand, and then... well, I don't know how she could have topped that, but she was just that freaking awesome that Tolkien simply had to kill her off before she could ruin the whole Silmarillion.
Ahem. I think the least you can do is refer to the book by its true title: The Lalaithion.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:06 PM   #19
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Lalaith ... become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?

+rolls over in tears crying from laughing too much+

+sobers up+ Except the reason Turin fell for Niniel in the first place MIGHT possibly have been because he loved Lalaith very much in their childhood
and was probably unconsciously seeking someone like her in appearance and temperament as a psychological compensation for her loss. Now THAT would make for a happy ending.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:19 PM   #20
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Really,did Maedhros kill Laughter?
Yes.

He scowled too much, and he had this uncanny ability to give you The Look whenever you were making jokes behind his back about how his robes really clashed with his hair, and if that doesn't kill Laughter I don't know what does...





...Wrong thread?

(Would contribute, but I can't think of anything to say that hasn't already been said.)
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:43 PM   #21
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Eye

It's the fault of Lalaith's great great grandparents for moving to a location within plague range of the most evil spot in all of Arda. It's the fault of the elves living up there for inviting the mortals to move there. It's the fault of the Valar for letting Morgoth loose. It's the fault of Eru for creating Morgoth. It's the fault of Morgoth himself for releasing the plague.

After all of that, it's difficult to give any sizable portion of blame to Maedhros. But I'll try, darn it! Or at least I would if it weren't for the fact that he is incredibly cool.

Plus- Turin didn't die, did he? Did Morwen? No. They were strong. Lalaith, on the other hand- she was a victim of her own weak nature, and was deservedly removed before she could drag down her mighty family.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:21 AM   #22
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Maybe someone could move this to Mirth? Then I'll explain how Lalaith is actually a Warg.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:28 AM   #23
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I was thinking the same thing, Eomer - this thread has definitely taken a turn into the mirthful! Consider it done.
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:19 AM   #24
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Silmaril

Lalaith ... become spellbound, lost her memory, stood by helplessly while Nienor got the same treatment, then... oh... let me see... they could both have fallen for their brother, and killed each other out of jealously! How's that?


Not exactly. She could look in Niniel's eyes instead of Glaurung's. There's no need for her to look in Glaurungs eyes, only to prevent their eye contact. And for that,she is allowed to turn her back on Glaurung.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:38 AM   #25
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[/I]Not exactly. She could look in Niniel's eyes instead of Glaurung's. There's no need for her to look in Glaurungs eyes, only to prevent their eye contact. And for that,she is allowed to turn her back on Glaurung.
Turn her back on Glaurung?

Are you sure that's entirely wise? Really?
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:06 AM   #26
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Not exactly. She could look in Niniel's eyes instead of Glaurung's. There's no need for her to look in Glaurungs eyes, only to prevent their eye contact. And for that,she is allowed to turn her back on Glaurung.
Turn her back on Glaurung?

Are you sure that's entirely wise? Really?
No, but I suppose she could have kept an eye on Glaurung in a mirror (which would render his gaze harmless) while drawing the Sword of Gryffindor from Niniel's garter...
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:13 AM   #27
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Hah. You know nothing.....

Lalaith and Nienor on Amon Ethir. Glaurung comes.

Lalaith:Sister, what is this?

Nienor:It's dragon of a foul one. Run!

Lalaith: No ned to run,sister. Watch...

Lalaith gets out a flask of water from river Gulduin and extends it to Glaurung.

Lalaith:It's harmless.

Glaurung drinks and falls into slumber. Lalaith and her sister sneak away quietly...

Beat this cunning!
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:46 AM   #28
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Hah. You know nothing.....

Lalaith and Nienor on Amon Ethir. Glaurung comes.

Lalaith:Sister, what is this?

Nienor:It's dragon of a foul one. Run!

Lalaith: No ned to run,sister. Watch...

Lalaith gets out a flask of water from river Gulduin and extends it to Glaurung.
Oh. If you refer to the stream in Mirkwood, may I remind you that it lies around fifteen hundred miles to the east of Lalaith's current location, with a couple of rather impressive mountain ranges in between, and that it quite possibly isn't even enchanted yet?

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Lalaith:It's harmless.

Glaurung drinks and falls into slumber. Lalaith and her sister sneak away quietly...

Beat this cunning!
Welll... I can't say I'd find it easy to deal with a real live dragon myself. But I'll tell you what, my very first step would be to reject out of hand any plan that relied on the dragon's being a complete nitwit. Seems just a trifle over-optimistic.

In other word: how did she get the water, and why did he drink it?

Over to you.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:57 AM   #29
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Oh. If you refer to the stream in Mirkwood, may I remind you that it lies around fifteen hundred miles to the east of Lalaith's current location, with a couple of rather impressive mountain ranges in between, and that it quite possibly isn't even enchanted yet?



Welll... I can't say I'd find it easy to deal with a real live dragon myself. But I'll you what, my very first step would be to reject out of hand any plan that relied on the dragon's being a complete nitwit. Seems just a trifle over-optimistic.

In other word: how did she get the water, and why did he drink it?

Over to you.
Right, so I'm mainly here to be a Nerwen cheerleader. Goooo Nerwen!
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:47 AM   #30
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I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
Prove it. Give me that text here and I'll believe you.

*crosses arms,waits*
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:00 PM   #31
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I'm sending this thread to Novice and Newcomers as it doesn't really belong in Mirth.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:39 PM   #32
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I'm sending this thread to Novice and Newcomers as it doesn't really belong in Mirth.
Where next? Haudh-en-Ndengin, the lost topics?
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:40 PM   #33
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Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.Shastanis Althreduin is wading through snowdrifts on Redhorn.
I dunno, Morm, I found it pretty mirthful.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:57 PM   #34
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What is a mirth?

Gladness and gaiety, especially when expressed by laughter.

Doesn't make sense. Sorry
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:32 PM   #35
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Eye

Anyone up for a challenge? Let's try to turn this into such a discussion that they will have to move it back into the books forum.

Tolkien discusses Lalaith's revised role in the tale, HoME XVI, sec A, vii Narn i Chîn Húrin early drafts and revisions-
Quote:
Lalaith was problematic in the early versions of "Narn i Chîn Húrin", as the younger sibling already provided the necessary final tragedy. It was an essential element that both Húrin and Túrin be isolated from the family, thus interaction with Lalaith was certainly not an option. The only place left for her was in the company of Morwen and Niniel, but Morwen also needed to be separate in the end. For a time I paired Lalaith with Niniel, placing them both under the dragon's spell, but upon reaching Brethil I could not shake the feeling of redundancy, as only one sister was necessary to provide the horrific finale.

In later drafts I omitted Lalaith completely, as it seemed the most obvious answer, but later I was struck by the idea that an early death would be more in harmony with the sort of tale I wished to tell. My first solution was for the dragon to cause her death at Nargothrond, adding another layer to his rivalry with the house of Húrin. However, such an event would not impact Túrin at all, as there was no logical way for him to receive such news while maintaining his ignorance of the identity of Niniel. It was most important to me that Túrin, as the primary character of the tragedy, experience this death if it was to be included. In the end I settled upon a childhood plague, simultaneously writing in the special relationship between Lalaith and Túrin, which had not been necessary before. The end result was to my liking, for it also served to make Lalaith more tolerable, as in the earlier tales she was somewhat annoying as an adult, with her incessant laughter and cheeriness through such awful events.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:23 PM   #36
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I've been trying to keep a lofty Manwe-like impassivity over this discussion...I even bit my tongue into silence over this
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Lalaith is actually a Warg
but now even Tolkien himself is joining in....
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she was somewhat annoying as an adult, with her incessant laughter and cheeriness through such awful events.
Well....REALLY.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:48 PM   #37
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...*giggle*

Anyway. *cough*

Yes. He did kill her. It's a little-known, VERY little-documented fact, but he had a grudge on Turin and so sneaked all the way over to his house to kill his baby sister. A cos he's just awesome that way.

Really, though, Lalaith's death had nothing to do with the Feanorians. For one, why in the world would Maedhros have wanted to kill a little girl? For two, Maedhros (while awesome) did not have the ability to predict the future or to read Morgoth's mind. How was he to know a) that Morgoth would send a plauge or b) that it would kill this one little mortal girl in particular? He wouldn't have known a) and he probably wouldn't have cared about b) except in the context that she was one of many. I think, in order to say that he "killed" her, he had to have actually cared/known about her death.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:11 AM   #38
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Oh,yes. "Bye bye Lalaith I never liked you!"

Don't you care about her just a little?! For I do!!!!!
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Urwen View Post
Oh,yes. "Bye bye Lalaith I never liked you!"

Don't you care about her just a little?! For I do!!!!!
Sure, it's a very sad part of Turin's story (as are most of the other parts). But I believe seven people now have already given serious answers to your original question. To quote just one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim
It doesn't make sense to arbitrarily assign responsibility to some agent down the chain of causation on the basis of some positive, yet entirely unrelated, consequences of a later date.
Since your only counter-arguments have been that a.) Maedhros killed other people, b.) Lalaith might have been awesome had she lived to grow up and c.) she was cute, I don't think you can blame the rest of us for turning it into a joke.
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Old 04-30-2010, 05:15 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
I think not, my young friend. You will find the fragment Narn i Gwilwileth Luin in Part 4 of The History of Middle Earth, Volume 10, as part of Note 12(b) to the long metaphysical dialogue Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
Prove it. Give me that text here and I'll believe you.

*crosses arms,waits*
Here:

Quote:
Finrod sighed, "Aye, adaneth, but many are the chances of this world, and hope or ruin may turn on the flap of a butterfly's wings."

"These are dark sayings," said Andreth. "Ye Eldar speak ever in riddles."

"Nay," said Finrod, "for foresight is given to me of many things, though seldom of joy. I beheld as a vision that a choice will come to a girl-child, the first-born daughter of a great warrior of the folk of Hador Lórindol and Adanel the Wise, whether to destroy a fair blue butterfly that resteth on the grass before her. For if she but let it live, in time to come one of its kin shall flit before the eyes of her sister and deliver her from the malice of the Dragon who would ensnare her; yet if she put forth her foot to crush it, her sister will be lost and grief beyond telling come upon her house.

'And I fear that the Marrer, working even through the whim of this child...'
HoMe X Part IV: Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. This is a fragment, included in the appendix only, as it becomes indecipherable after this point, and it's not clear how Tolkien intended it to fit into the main text of the Athrabeth, or even if he did.
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