separation of Shadowfax and Gandalf

[tinewelt]

Just a little thought... not a very hot topic for debate, but I was pondering the parting of the fellowship. In the "white rider" gandalf states

far let us ride now together, and part not in this world again

At the parting,(havens) shadowfax is present. Which leads me to assume that he also took the ship to valinor with gandalf, because it does not state otherwise. That also seems like a topic that Tolkien would have addressed if it had happened. Also, what (if any) is the signifigance of animals in Valinor? I am sure that they are present, but i have never really covered any material that gives clear understanding. Also, I wonder what the lifespan was for horses, especially the mearas Any help?

~Namarie~

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I believe I can address each of those questions for you. Starting from the last.

- The life of a mearas was in fact as long as that of a human. Each horse tended to accompany its King until its death.

It was upon Felarof thatEorl rode to the field of Celebrant; for that horse proved as long lived as Men, and so were his descendants.

- In Valinor, I believe, all animals (that have been, are, and are yet to be in the world) are to be found; and as the land is Undying, it is probable that there they are immortal. It is possible that I've got this idea from the Lost Tales or something, but I've got a feeling that it's from the Silm.

Did Shadowfax go with Gandalf to the West? It is probable, if that line of Gandalf's was true. As I should think it was; Shadowfax was to be the last of the mearas's line, a thing that would be explained by his passing into the West.
Perhaps that's where he belonged.

Men said of them that Bema (whome the Eldar call Orome) must have brought their sire from West over sea.

Sort of on loan to Middle-Earth, for a while, they may have been.

[Finwe]

and as the land is Undying, it is probable that there they are immortal.

Gwaihir, the reason Aman was called the Undying Lands was because of the people that lived there, not because of any special properties that the land itself possessed. In Unfinished Tales, the Elves told the King of Numenor that living in the Undying Lands did not confer immortality, rather, it was the people themselves who were immortal.

Therefore, Shadowfax wouldn't have immediately become "immortal" just by living in the Undying Lands.

[tinewelt]

I agree Gwaihir. Although Finwe points out that the undying lands are named for the ones who live there, I believe that it is open for debate since it is not really set in stone. I believe that it was possible for the mearas to remain immortal in Valinor.

Men said of them that Bema (whome the Eldar call Orome) must have brought their sire from West over sea.

This seems to be the logical reason for why I would believe that they are immortal in the undying lands. It seems like valinor is kind of symbolic for *noahs arc* in my OPINION. (no proof) I think that it is very possible that all animals (as Gwaihir stated) can be found in Valinor, and I do not believe that the Valar would let such a race die out completely.

[Finwe]

Ah, I see.


So perhaps the Mearas had "cousins" or "kin" living in Aman, who were immortal. But then again, even if they weren't immortal, they still wouldn't die out completely. A species dies out completely if no more births occur, and the Mearas probably breed like regular horses (don't make me get into the graphic details! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])

[tinewelt]

[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] yes well, i did consider that aspect. However, if gandalf wishes for them to never part again in this world...(although valinor is not part of the rest of middle earth) then that makes me assume that once shadowfax reaches valinor, he will not die. (hence the never parting concept [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) Anyway, I am probably starting to stretch the validity of this subject, so i will graciously step down and save you the agony. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Namarie~

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Ah well, who knows. Its fiction; I think that's about all we can say. =)

[the real findorfin]

I believe that by this quote, Gandalf means that until they have left 'Middle-Earth' they should not be parted again. It does not mean that they would never be parted. Gandalf is saying (heroically as he does not really know if it will be true) that they will win through and depart ME victorious.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I think that Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the sea], though this is not stated. I feel it is better not to state everything (and indeed it is more realistic, since in the chronicles and accounts of 'real' history, many facts that the enquirer would like to know are omitted, and the truth has to be discovered or guessed from such evidence as there is). I should argue so: Shadowfax came of a special race (II 126, 129, III 346) being as it were an Elvish equivalent of ordinary horses: his 'blood' came from 'West over Sea'. It would not be unfitting for him to 'go West'. Gandalf was not 'dying' or going by a special grace to the Western Land, before passing on 'beyond the circles of the world': he was going home, being plainly one of the 'immortals', an angelic emissary of the angelic governors (Valar) of the Earth. He would take or could take what he loved. Gandalf was last seen riding Shadowfax (III 276). He must have ridden to the Havens, and it is inconceivable that he would [have] ridden any beast but Shadowfax; so Shadowfax must have been there. A chronicler winding up a long tale , and for the moment moved principally by the sorrow of those left behind (himself among them!) might omit mention of the horse; but had the great horse also shared in the grief of sundering, he could hardly have been forgotten.
Letter #268 (19th January 1965)

There you have it. Straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.