The Science of Middle Earth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lindolirian · 06-02-2002, 06:18 PM

I've been reading threads about the life cyles of elves, how they re-incarnate, female dwarves, and orcs, and it got me thinking about all of the scientific parts of Middle Earth. What were the biological differences between elves and men? Why don't hobbits have facial hair? Where did hobbits come from/ Did they "evolve" from men? What ever happened to the Sea of Helcar? The upprooting of the Isle of Balar: how did Osse do it? Anything that is a mystery of science in Middle Earth... let's discuss it!

Birdland · 06-03-2002, 08:53 AM

Lindolirian this could be an interesting thread. As for your first question, it seems that except for their immortality and superficial physical aspects (such as their "maybe" pointed ears and outrageous good looks) Elves were biologically the same as humans. The determining factor being that Elves and Men could breed, and their offspring were not sterile.

As for beardless hobbits and elves, I can't really find what makes a race beardless or not. In our own world, the indigeous races of South and North America are said to be beardless, as are Polynesians and some Asian races. But actually the beards are just extremely thin, and some of their men were capable of growing whiskers. Tolkien even states that the subgroup of Hobbits, the Stoors, did have thin beards.

I suppose the closest we have to Hobbits in this day and age are the "pygmy races of Equitorial Africa. They are beardless.

Interesting side note: reading about Pygmies, the description of them is remarkably like Hobbits. They were known to be very nimble, extremely good at archery and spear throwing (They even hunted elephants!), had a very highly developed sense of humor, and a light-hearted outlook on life, and really have no formal religious beliefs.

Raefindel · 06-03-2002, 09:49 AM

Interesting topic,Lindolirian. I just recently learned that Elves can grow beards. As I stated on another thread, I was under the mistaken belief that Elves were unable to grow beards, rather than prefering not to have them. Still curious aobut the 3 life stages of the Elves, though. Can anyone add anything about that?

[ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ]

Raefindel · 06-03-2002, 10:23 AM

We were talking about Elven Pregnancyon another thread and another question came to mind; If Elves can choose to become pregnant or not become pregnant, Can they also choose to have twins or is that a surprise?

Raefindel · 06-05-2002, 08:15 PM

Mae Govannen, Flittermouse. Welcome to the Barrow-Downs.

Kalessin · 06-05-2002, 08:43 PM

Fair question, but remember that the rational sciences - including commonly accepted mechanisms of evolution or the differentiation of species - were not part of Tolkien's mythos, which is most explicitly outlined in the early chapters of the Silmarillion.

The Elves and Dwarves were explicitly the designed outcome of 'sub-creation' (secondary or consequent developments) by the Valar, and contained to some degree universal traits representative of their creators - for example, the Dwarves prediliction for the depths, and for the use of trees in the making. The Ents were also 'made' in this way, and so on.

Whilst these 'subcreative' events took place over a relatively long period of time, and were affected by what one might call 'chance', Eru's hand is apparent. In addition, Tolkien revisited the First and Second Age repeatedly in notes, incomplete revisions or contextual additions, and the cosmology should in fairness be viewed as unfinished and not definitive, though full of interesting details (on a side note, evolution theory today is neither flawless nor comprehensively definitive).

Rather than looking for exact causal models or a replication of empirical science, perhaps it's rewarding to look at why Tolkien focused on particular kinds of creature, what their significance was, what identifications we can find collectively or individually - and, perhaps most of all, his attentiveness to details of personality or community (which, among other things, certainly distinguishes his work and gives it conviction and substance). I wonder if there are any works (ancient or modern) with the same range of large, thriving, conscious (in a human sense), moral communities that interact with each other in so many different ways. This facet of his work may only be a part of whatever has made LotR such a success, but it represents a devotion to, and expansive vision of, a single narrative framework across the lifetime of the author which may well be unique.

Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-06-2002, 08:39 AM

So...where did hobbits come from? Are they more closely related to Elves or Men?

Lindolirian · 06-07-2002, 11:54 AM

My theory is that hobbits did come from men. When the Edain went into Beleriand, the Easterlings and Swarthy men were not the only ones left in Middle Earth. There were the ancestors of the Beornings and Dalemen who we learn in LotR are related to the ancestors of the Rohirrim, Also there are the Pukel men, and the ancestors of Ghan-Buri-Ghan. If you recall, the Pukel men and the "Wild Woses" of Druadan forest were described as squat and short, not mention very woodcrafty. The hobbits, living along the banks of Anduin, i believe were a mix of the Northmen and of the Dunlanders/Woses. Living in holes and out doors might have attributed to their shortness and large, furry, leathery feet. But, i do not know of they were counted as the Children of Iluvatar. Did they share the same fate as Men after death or did they simply die like the animals?

Daniel Telcontar · 06-07-2002, 12:00 PM

Only the Elves and Men were counted as children of Iluvatar, but I doubt that hobbits are a offspring of some other races. We do not have any explanation of how some other races began, like the Woses (or whatever their names is) who aided the Rohirrim during the War of the Ring. Who knows if not one of the Valar with a good sense of humor made the hobbits? Like Aule made the dwarves, some might have made the hobbits when he or she saw the new race of Men.

Lindolirian · 06-07-2002, 12:10 PM

Well, like i said, my above post is merely a theory, not fact according to Tolkien.

06-02-2002, 06:18 PM	#1
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	The Science of Middle Earth I've been reading threads about the life cyles of elves, how they re-incarnate, female dwarves, and orcs, and it got me thinking about all of the scientific parts of Middle Earth. What were the biological differences between elves and men? Why don't hobbits have facial hair? Where did hobbits come from/ Did they "evolve" from men? What ever happened to the Sea of Helcar? The upprooting of the Isle of Balar: how did Osse do it? Anything that is a mystery of science in Middle Earth... let's discuss it! __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

06-03-2002, 09:49 AM	#3
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Interesting topic,Lindolirian. I just recently learned that Elves can grow beards. As I stated on another thread, I was under the mistaken belief that Elves were unable to grow beards, rather than prefering not to have them. Still curious aobut the 3 life stages of the Elves, though. Can anyone add anything about that? [ June 03, 2002: Message edited by: Raefindel ] __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-03-2002, 10:23 AM	#4
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	We were talking about Elven Pregnancyon another thread and another question came to mind; If Elves can choose to become pregnant or not become pregnant, Can they also choose to have twins or is that a surprise? __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-05-2002, 08:15 PM	#5
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,325	Mae Govannen, Flittermouse. Welcome to the Barrow-Downs. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-06-2002, 08:39 AM	#7
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	So...where did hobbits come from? Are they more closely related to Elves or Men? __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

06-03-2002, 08:53 AM	#2
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,757	Lindolirian this could be an interesting thread. As for your first question, it seems that except for their immortality and superficial physical aspects (such as their "maybe" pointed ears and outrageous good looks) Elves were biologically the same as humans. The determining factor being that Elves and Men could breed, and their offspring were not sterile. As for beardless hobbits and elves, I can't really find what makes a race beardless or not. In our own world, the indigeous races of South and North America are said to be beardless, as are Polynesians and some Asian races. But actually the beards are just extremely thin, and some of their men were capable of growing whiskers. Tolkien even states that the subgroup of Hobbits, the Stoors, did have thin beards. I suppose the closest we have to Hobbits in this day and age are the "pygmy races of Equitorial Africa. They are beardless. Interesting side note: reading about Pygmies, the description of them is remarkably like Hobbits. They were known to be very nimble, extremely good at archery and spear throwing (They even hunted elephants!), had a very highly developed sense of humor, and a light-hearted outlook on life, and really have no formal religious beliefs.

06-05-2002, 08:43 PM	#6
Kalessin Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Earthsea, or London Posts: 175	Fair question, but remember that the rational sciences - including commonly accepted mechanisms of evolution or the differentiation of species - were not part of Tolkien's mythos, which is most explicitly outlined in the early chapters of the Silmarillion. The Elves and Dwarves were explicitly the designed outcome of 'sub-creation' (secondary or consequent developments) by the Valar, and contained to some degree universal traits representative of their creators - for example, the Dwarves prediliction for the depths, and for the use of trees in the making. The Ents were also 'made' in this way, and so on. Whilst these 'subcreative' events took place over a relatively long period of time, and were affected by what one might call 'chance', Eru's hand is apparent. In addition, Tolkien revisited the First and Second Age repeatedly in notes, incomplete revisions or contextual additions, and the cosmology should in fairness be viewed as unfinished and not definitive, though full of interesting details (on a side note, evolution theory today is neither flawless nor comprehensively definitive). Rather than looking for exact causal models or a replication of empirical science, perhaps it's rewarding to look at why Tolkien focused on particular kinds of creature, what their significance was, what identifications we can find collectively or individually - and, perhaps most of all, his attentiveness to details of personality or community (which, among other things, certainly distinguishes his work and gives it conviction and substance). I wonder if there are any works (ancient or modern) with the same range of large, thriving, conscious (in a human sense), moral communities that interact with each other in so many different ways. This facet of his work may only be a part of whatever has made LotR such a success, but it represents a devotion to, and expansive vision of, a single narrative framework across the lifetime of the author which may well be unique. Peace [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

06-07-2002, 11:54 AM	#8
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	My theory is that hobbits did come from men. When the Edain went into Beleriand, the Easterlings and Swarthy men were not the only ones left in Middle Earth. There were the ancestors of the Beornings and Dalemen who we learn in LotR are related to the ancestors of the Rohirrim, Also there are the Pukel men, and the ancestors of Ghan-Buri-Ghan. If you recall, the Pukel men and the "Wild Woses" of Druadan forest were described as squat and short, not mention very woodcrafty. The hobbits, living along the banks of Anduin, i believe were a mix of the Northmen and of the Dunlanders/Woses. Living in holes and out doors might have attributed to their shortness and large, furry, leathery feet. But, i do not know of they were counted as the Children of Iluvatar. Did they share the same fate as Men after death or did they simply die like the animals? __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."

06-07-2002, 12:00 PM	#9
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Only the Elves and Men were counted as children of Iluvatar, but I doubt that hobbits are a offspring of some other races. We do not have any explanation of how some other races began, like the Woses (or whatever their names is) who aided the Rohirrim during the War of the Ring. Who knows if not one of the Valar with a good sense of humor made the hobbits? Like Aule made the dwarves, some might have made the hobbits when he or she saw the new race of Men. __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

06-07-2002, 12:10 PM	#10
Lindolirian World's Tallest Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Where the view is long Posts: 2,126	Well, like i said, my above post is merely a theory, not fact according to Tolkien. __________________ 'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end."