Why take over Middle Earth?

[Lindolirian]

Why would Sauron want to take over Middle Earth. I mean once he has everyone dead or as slaves for him and he controls all of Middle Earth, what is he gonna do with it all? I mean there are no war startegies to plan to Ring-Bearers to hunt; he's got it all, What now? Maybe he was planning on spreading his power to the other contients of Arda. But still what's the point? Is he just gonna sit there and say "I rule the world!" what are your thoughts on this.....

[Elven-Maiden]

I don't think Sauron would know what to do with Middle Earth once he has it, other than destroy one by one the works of the Valar. I think that for someone that bitter and evil, the thrill of hurting those who worked so hard to create beauty would be enough. *shiver*

[Aralaithiel]

I agree with you, Elven-maiden. He wants to destroy everything good & beautiful. One could compare Sauron to Satan in this regard.
By the way, nice cross! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lindolirian]

I just thought of this. In the Silmarillion it says that Morgoth can never be released from the Void while the Valar still sit on their thrones. Could Sauron possibly be building up a large attack on Aman? If so how will he reach it. They won't let him find the Satight Way.

[Kuruharan]

Just 'cause. Why does anybody ever strive to gain greater position, domination, wealth, or (stick whatever else you like in this slot)? Just for the intoxicating mystique of self-aggrandizement, and being able to control others.

[ February 18, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Kuruharan]

Lindolirian: Like your pic by the way. Funny.

Elven-Maiden: Nice cross. It's very...gold, isn't it.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Beren87]

You all are questioning the main point of history, why are wars fought.

He just wants to take over so that in the end he can sit on his thone and repeat over and over to himself
"I am King"
"I am King"
"I am King"
Then, he can come to the awful realization, that everything he has dedicated his life to taking over has just been destroyed...

Dude has a complex, if you ask me

[Elven-Maiden]

I'm so glad you all like my cross! I thought it was so pretty, so I used it! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It's Byzantine cross. Big word, nice cross!

Yes, I'm just a wee bit giddy this morning- I have a snow day, so I don't have to go to school!

(and I'm officially turning into a wight with this post!)

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

You all are questioning the main point of history, why are wars fought.

That's easy. One leader or group of people wants one thing; another entity wants another thing; the two are mutually exclusive, so off we go to war. "The continuation of policy by other means", as von Clausewitz would have it, or one step up from tough negotiation.

Of course to most of the people who make war the object is to achieve a limited aim; usually to extort some kind of concession from the other side. Huge conquests built on trade wars, such as the British empire don't have a single guiding intelligence or goal behind them, but happen in a haphazard scramble that leaves everyone wondering what it was all about (actually it was about money, but that's by the by). Even Hitler wasn't all-out for world domination: he originally wanted Britain as an ally in some bizarre Anglo-Saxon/Aryan league (1), and I'm fairly sure that he didn't want North America. Stalin, his rival in the mad dictatorship stakes, paid lip-service to global Communism, but was really quite happy to carve out a fiefdom for himself in eastern Europe. Those two being the biggest empire-building lunatics of the twentieth century, one has to see Sauron as a very sick puppy indeed.

My pet theory is that people who really fight for power never wonder why they're doing it. I see the desire to rule others as a kind of insanity, be it wanting to be the chairman of the parish council, a national leader or ruler of the world. The more of a nutter you are, the more people you want to respect your authoritah. Like all the pipe-dreams of maniacs, though, it's all a waste of time:

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works ye mighty and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Although Sauron's immortal, so perhaps his ambition makes more sense.

(1) He joined Teddy Roosevelt in this odd ambition.

[EDIT] The text from Shelley's poem is now correct.

[Lush]

It all comes back to the male preoccupation with size, how big your kingdom is, and whatnot. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Aralaithiel]

Lady Aralaithiel of Lorien's Theory on War:
1. You have something I want.
2. You will not give it to me if I ask nicely, including trading for it, etc.
3. You would rather die than give it to me.
4. Therefore, I will attempt to obliterate you and take it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

Lady Aralaithiel of Lorien's Theory on War:
1. You have something I want.
2. You will not give it to me if I ask nicely, including trading for it, etc.
3. You would rather die than give it to me.
4. Therefore, I will attempt to obliterate you and take it.

Sounds like as good of reasons as any to girt on heavy suits of chain mail, put heavy helmets on our heads, grab massive battle axes and go do battle. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Originally, it would seem that Sauron's desire for domination had (to him) benevolent design. He was a lover of order, and desired to bring the entire world into his order. Being corrupted by Morgoth's evil, however, his idea of order was not a very nice one. Indeed, it meant all of Arda worshipping him as some sort of god.

In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit. In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Númenóreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.

Letters, no. 183

It can also be seen that Sauron, after the overthrow of Morgoth, seems to have had as his purpose the "rehabilitation" of Middle Earth.

And there is Sauron. In the Silmarillion and Tales of the First Age Sauron was a being of Valinor perverted to the service of the Enemy and becoming his chief captain and servant. He repents in fear when the First Enemy is utterly defeated, but in the end does not do as was commanded, return to the judgement of the gods. He lingers in Middle-earth. Very slowly, beginning with fair motives: the reorganising and rehabilitation of the ruin of Middle-earth, 'neglected by the gods', he becomes a reincarnation of Evil, and a thing lusting for Complete Power – and so consumed ever more fiercely with hate (especially of gods and Elves).

Letters, no 131

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I can't argue with that, Bruce. Straight from the horse's mouth, as they say.

It all comes back to the male preoccupation with size, how big your kingdom is, and whatnot.

The Freudian-inadequacy theory of war. That could work. All of those long-barrelled guns, sleek missiles, huge battleships and engines of power and destruction. Then in earlier wars, the big axes, hammers, swords and spears; not to mention the act of sliding such a weapon into the body of one's enemy and seeing the look in his eyes... "'War is an act of homo-eroticism': discuss".

Incidentally, the Norse god of war was also their god of poetry, which brings in another fascinating parallel: Calliope as the consort of Ares. [EDIT, 20 Feb 06: Actually this isn't even slightly unusual, since epic poetry is usually heavily concerned with war.]

You would rather die than give it to me...

"...Your proposal is acceptable"

[Tarlondeion Of Gondolin]

Sauron wouldn't want to bring Morgoth back because then he'd lose most of his power. He's not a good loyal servant he's an Evil tyrant who wants to destroy all the good works of the Valar and have all the races under his dominion.

[Lush]

The Freudian-inadequacy theory of war. That could work. All of those long-barrelled guns, sleek missiles, huge battleships and engines of power and destruction. Then in earlier wars, the big axes, hammers, swords and spears; not to mention the act of sliding such a weapon into the body of one's enemy and seeing the look in his eyes... 'War is an act of homo-eroticism'. discuss.

Oh...I was just trying to slip in a general sexual reference when I wrote that, as in, being immature and silly; although, you have to admit that Sauron could definitely pass himself off as a genuine homosexual-when Luthien comes within his reach, all he can think of is a reward. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Once again, whoever takes the above seriously will be promptly shot. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Phil The Balrog]

Fun Fact: The sanskrit word for war means "desire for more cows", i believe.

Sauron just wanted more cows. Duh. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Probably sick of having to buy the office milk. 'That's it, we're getting a cow.'

[KayQy]

I see the desire to rule others as a kind of insanity, be it wanting to be the chairman of the parish council, a national leader or ruler of the world. The more of a nutter you are, the more people you want to respect your authoritah.

I quite agree:

"Any American who is prepared to run for president should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so."-- Gore Vidal

[Telchar]

What would Sauron do if he had taken over ze world and enslaved everybody?

He would probably find a slave and go:

Sauron: Hello Slave, are you miserable?
Slave: No of course not, Good master Sauron, Sir!
Sauron: Hmmm OK! I'll have to work on that.... MUHHHAAARHAAHAA [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I quite agree:
"Any American who is prepared to run for president should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so."-- Gore Vidal

How do you think old Gore felt about people who weren't American running for President? It's about time we put an end to this silly independence fad.

Oh...I was just trying to slip in a general sexual reference when I wrote that, as in, being immature and silly

Actually I was trying to play along with it. Ah, the perils of on-line whimsy.

I've a theory that Sauron wanted to plate himself in mithril, but that may have been someone else...

[Kuruharan]

Probably sick of having to buy the office milk. 'That's it, we're getting a cow.'

And the serious tone of this thread now goes down in flames. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

i dont think sauron wanted for morgoth to come back, but i do not think sauron would oppose morgoth if he did return. the power of the mightiest being in ea is not easily forgotten. plus, sauron did have great power under morgoth.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Forgotten however, is the fact that Melkor was the driving spirit behind all the evil in the world, and if Sauron was looking for power to fight the Valar, he could never get it to rescue Melkor, who though gone, was ever Sauron's master. What on Arda would or could Sauron even use. A leftover Balrog-they were left over from Manwe's onslaught anyway. Dragons, they were much too weak. The elves themselves-that may have possibly been one of his plans, hence the ring. But he was only a Maiar (the most powerful one pretty much, granted) he could never hope to kill off the Valar and free Melkor, only use his own influence on Arda. But total control is not such a bad thing, if you care nothing about the means used to gain it. Looking before Hitler, or Stalin-the holy Roman Empire was based on Greek Mythology until it turned to belief in Christ, maybe Sauron wanted to set up a mock religion (like in Numenor) to keep his subjects under control. If it was their belief that they would be rewarded in the afterlife or something aong those lines, they would be totally subservient. Any rebels would be quickly isolated. Elves would all leave. Dwarves would go into hiding. Sauron would be free of worry to start creating things-he was after all a Maia of Aule, and crafting things was of his nature so maybe all his later trouble was because he was corrupt, and his rivalry with the crafty Noldor was just to much, so he waged war. After all, he was influenced by greed, spite, malice, sadism, maybe he just figured that as the most powerful being in all of Arda, he should rightfully be leader. Just as Saruman pretty much eventually thought. (Wow, and Aule disobeyed Eru to make the Dwarves-I'm sensing a real pattern here). It was in his nature to rebel from the Valar, and so he with his own god complex (literally) just wanted to rule. Did anyone ever try to write treaties with him, or hold conference and invite him-no. When GilGalad instantly didn't like him, and Elrond/Galadriel/Celeborn wouldn't "fall" for his disguise (I personally think he was just trying to fit in and not scare them) his complex went off and he got ****ed, only to make the one ring. After that, it was all war, kill the dark lord, evil nooooo! Seriously, after thousands of years and multiple deaths I'd get back the old sense of betterness, bitterness and hatred that had been planted in me ages before. (Melkor was very able to seduce firy spirits to the dark side). And Sauron was even a rebel to Melkor, not going back to him to report Luthien, just running of to wherever he went. I think maybe the other races forced war on him, not realizing that there are other ways to peace, and that since he was in Mordor before they were even there, he had a right to not be threatened by newcomers. But no, he served the ancient evil, he had to go.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

And the serious tone of this thread now goes down in flames.

*Looks up from painting another brain on the side of his monitor*

Still more intelligent conversation falls before my guns. I'll match Richthofen yet...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Looking before Hitler, or Stalin-the holy Roman Empire was based on Greek Mythology until it turned to belief in Christ

Well, the points about being able to fight the Valar are spot on; but European history is a subject into which I've put a little study, so if everyone will bear with me while I historicise I'll continue.
Firstly, the Holy Roman Empire wasn't based on Greek mythology at all: the entire concept was dreamed up by the Catholic church, who were left somewhat high and dry when the Goths and Vandals tore up the old western Roman dominions. After they'd had a chance to dust themselves off and reorganise they picked Charlemagne, who by then ruled most of what is now France, Germany and northern Italy, to be a tame ruler and crowned him Emperor of Rome (this didn't please the then Byzantine emperor in Constantinople, since he rightly saw himself as the real thing). Subsequently Charlemagne's dominions were divided, leaving the Emperorship with his son Lothar, then Lothar's brother, Louis the German and eventually with the Ottonian and Salian dynasties, who really did combine church and state in a big way, for their own political ends and much to the annoyance of several successive popes. There was a Holy Roman Emperor in Germany until the nineteenth century, but his title was not a Roman one.

If we're talking about the Roman empire itself, I'm not sure that it was based on its religion at all. Sacred ritual was tied up in the ceremonial aspect of Roman politics, but they didn't have much of a centralised Church and by the later stages of their history most cultivated Romans were laughing at the obvious absurdities of Emperor-deification and the details concerning the births of various gods. The Empire spread for a number of reasons: Rome had no natural borders to the North after the Alps, so a lot of the expansion into hell-holes like Iron-Age Britain can be explained by the search for security. Then there's the economic aspect: new territory meant new trade routes and resources, both natural and human, in the form of citizens and slaves. Also it became a sine qua non of a successful military career that a triumph be celebrated by the victorious general. Without conquest there can be no triumph; not to mention the role of the Legions in selecting emperors, the acclamations of Caligula and Claudius being prime examples. Legionaries were obviously supportive of anyone who could provide them with the spoils of war and the shares they'd receive in a triumph. In the end the god who had most to do with the expansion of Rome was Mithras, the god of warriors, and not through the doctrines of his cult.

By the time that Constantine changed the Roman state religion to Christianity, the Empire had reached its peak; a century later Roman troops were withdrawn from Britain; and within a hundred years after that the Vandals had sacked the Imperial city itself, so we can hardly see the Galilean as an icon of expansionism.
In the end, like so many empires, the glory of Rome was built on, by and for money in a vicious circle of expansion that could neither be abandoned nor maintained.

To my mind the desire for total domination is one of individuals rather than entire cultures (cf my comments about the British empire earlier in this thread). Religion in the Roman imperium was so diverse and anarchic that it could never have been the guiding ideal of a conquering nation.

You could have a point with the mock-religion idea (if we assume monotheism and enforced orthodoxy, which seems likely), although it seems to me that Sauron's presence in Eregion could be explained by a simple desire to learn as much as he could about rings of power, the better to use them against the Eldar.

[Kuruharan]

*Looks up from painting another brain on the side of his monitor*

Still more intelligent conversation falls before my guns. I'll match Richthofen yet...

LOL!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Excellent history lesson by the way. I'm a history major myself. Roman and Byzantine history is one of my passions. Unfortunately I haven't got to study it much lately, but that's another story. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

*Bows low; flying helmet and goggles fall off. Thinks: 'it's a good thing nobody saw that'*

Why thank you, Kuruharan. It wouldn't have earned much from an examiner, but I hope I wasn't glaringly inaccurate. I know how you feel about history: ever since I graduated I've had less and less time to spend on the important things in life (those that happened centuries in the past). Still, at least I didn't have to study anything but history before then. Single honours, dontcha know.

Don't let the essay fool you: the sky is clear, the wind is moderate to variable and another idiotic sortie is in the offing.

[Gorin Icearms]

Somewhere Gandalf says that Sauron himself is a servant. (Haven't read them in a while and I'm tired) [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I would assume that once Sauron had control of the world and regained the rings, he would be able to free his master. Most likely it's referring to Melkor.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Indeed it is. I think that it was in the past tense though.