Couldn't Niniel and Turin work this out?

[Eorl of Rohan]

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One of my favorite features in Barrow-Downs is the ever-changing quotes on the top right corner, and today it showed this passage:

NINIEL, THINKING TURIN IS DEAD:
"Farewell, O twice beloved! A Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen: master of doom by doom mastered! O happy to be dead!"

This reminded me, what if Niniel knew that Turin was just out cold and not dead? Would she have killed herself regardless?
I know that she was pregnant (and thus her hormones might have added to her impetuousness),
but couldn't Niniel the Tearmaiden pause and assess her situation?
I mean, brother marries sister in lots of cultures (especially in royal families, to keep the bloodline pure),
And I suspect that Niniel didn't receive much of ethical or moral sermons on sexual purity from Morwen while on the road;
Even if she did, nowhere on Silmarillion does Eru or the Valar state: "thou shalt not marry thine own brethren".
Why would it be a sin? It would be weird, but not Oedipal marry-your-mother weird. Besides, isn't suicide/infanticide sinful as well?

Don't you think Niniel and Turin might have worked out a viable solution other than double-suicide to this tangled web of deceit,
if Niniel realized in time that Turin was unconscious but still alive? Somehow overcome this, together?

I know that I'm a sucker for happy endings, but I cannot help but wonder whether Niniel would've killed herself she knew Turin lived.
I understand her jumping off a cliff in her despair at her husband's death and the shock of what she found out,
But what would Niniel and Turin have done if Niniel knew Turin was alive? (I assume filing for divorce wasn't an option, but still.)
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[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

I mean, brother marries sister in lots of cultures (especially in royal families, to keep the bloodline pure).

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Even if she did, nowhere on Silmarillion does Eru or the Valar state: "thou shalt not marry thine own brethren".

Yes, royalty in the 'real world' often married their close kin, but at least in Europe, that was mainly a result of their practice of arranging marriages between their offspring and that of other thrones, in order to increase their influence. Over time that led to a lot of shared genetics in royal houses. However, I don't think they commonly consorted with such close kin as brothers and sisters.

In Tolkien's world, such intermarriage seems to be strictly taboo, even without an 'official' decree from the Valar. We see it in the Eldar, with Maeglin:

....he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her, without hope. The Eldar wedded not with kin so near, nor ever before had any desired to do so.

The Silmarillion Of Maeglin

And the Dúnedain in Númenor, who took many of their laws and customs from the Elves:

But Pharazôn took [Míriel] to wife against her will, doing evil in this and evil also in that the laws of Númenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree.

The Silmarillion Akallabêth

So there are two examples of close marriages being disallowed, and both those instances merely regard first cousins.

Incest between immediate family would have been an even greater horror to those in Middle-earth, at least those of the 'enlightened', in the west.

It seems clear that it wasn't the thought of Túrin being dead that drove Níniel to madness, but the knowledge the she was carrying his child.

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Why would it be a sin? It would be weird, but not Oedipal marry-your-mother weird. Besides, isn't suicide/infanticide sinful as well?

I don't claim to be an expert on the matter in the real world, but generally the taboo would stem from the knowledge that the genetic mixing would result in birth defects and unhealthy descendants. I don't see why that would be different in ME.

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Don't you think Niniel and Turin might have worked out a viable solution other than double-suicide to this tangled web of deceit,
if Niniel realized in time that Turin was unconscious but still alive? Somehow overcome this, together?

I don't think either could have dealt with the horror they felt. Think of Níniel's words:

O happy to be dead!

She wasn't mourning Túrin; she envied him, that his anguish had ended.

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

I know that I'm a sucker for happy endings, but I cannot help but wonder whether Niniel would've killed herself she knew Turin lived.
I understand her jumping off a cliff in her despair at her husband's death and the shock of what she found out,
But what would Niniel and Turin have done if Niniel knew Turin was alive? (I assume filing for divorce wasn't an option, but still.)
.

I think she would have done the same, if Túrin himself had tried to stay her. The thought of carrying the child to term would have been unbearable to her, and suicide the only option. She's really the one I have the most pity for in the whole sorry tale, not Túrin.

[Eorl of Rohan]

Aw. I was hoping against hope that there was no reference about taboo of marriage between close kinds in Tolkien's works, but I guess that's dashed.
I should have liked to dream of a possible happy future for Turin and Niniel.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

I mean, brother marries sister in lots of cultures (especially in royal families, to keep the bloodline pure),

Really? The only example I can think of where this has happened is ancient Egypt and I believe I've heard that even there, the extent to which this was a normal practice has been somewhat exaggerated. But of course there may well be other examples I'm not familiar with.

Besides, isn't suicide/infanticide sinful as well?

No one committed infanticide in the story.

As for suicide - personally, I've never understood why this is so widely considered sinful or immoral. Tragic, certainly, but how is voluntarily ending one's own life sinful? However, that's just my view; I expect Tolkien would have agreed that it was sinful. One does wonder what he thought the 'correct' response would have been on both Nienor's and Turin's parts.

[Mithalwen]

There is certainly a knowledge of keeping bloodlines pure in Tolkien especially with the Dunedain where the purer houses in Gondor are the longest lived and their lifetime is less than those of the North because of mingling with lesser stock. Of course in the real world inbreeding is much more likely to cause a diminishment in health and mind.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Aw. I was hoping against hope that there was no reference about taboo of marriage between close kinds in Tolkien's works, but I guess that's dashed.
I should have liked to dream of a possible happy future for Turin and Niniel.

Probably that can't be helped. You see, the story was basically meant to be tragic from the beginning till the end. But that said, I don't think it's a reason to despair - there are many other stories from Middle-Earth and basically all of them end up happily! (And that is even if somebody dies... my belief is that all of them end up happily. At most, there is the general sadness like e.g. the departure of the Elves, but that's something different, not tragedy.)

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

As for suicide - personally, I've never understood why this is so widely considered sinful or immoral. Tragic, certainly, but how is voluntarily ending one's own life sinful? However, that's just my view; I expect Tolkien would have agreed that it was sinful. One does wonder what he thought the 'correct' response would have been on both Nienor's and Turin's parts.

I wonder too. The point is, I think he would say that under their own circumstances this was probably the logical and inavoidable conclusion. Of course in our Primary World he would have a different point of view (from the point of view of his faith at least the one that amendment is always possible), but that's probably a lot outside the scope of what he wanted to portray here: a complete tragedy, well in tune with all the old tragic tales (all the ancient Greek fate-bound Oidipus-like guys or Kullervo from Kalevala, who had essentially the very same fate).

As for suicide being seen as sinful: there is a very good logic behind it, in my opinion, and I am saying that as a person whose close friend had actually commited suicide. The main underlying point would be that it is not just your personal problem and decision. It is ultimately an utterly cowardly and selfish deed, thinking that "with being dead, I don't have to worry about anything anymore". But it's not only about oneself, but also about the other people who knew that person, and who are still left here living their lives. That friend of mine wiped out all knowledge of his existence, like throwing away things from his home and erasing all files from his computer, making it seem as if he never existed. But to all those people who knew him, of course, it was not as easy as that to just forget that he existed. Namely his parents. The point is, there is a certain network of people around everybody and he is in some way responsible to them. This is further emphasised also by the classic religious explanation of suicide being sinful because your life is not ultimately yours to take because it also was not you to give it to yourself in the first place. The general explanation (and I think shared by more religious worldviews, and in my opinion not impossible to adapt even by non-religiously thinking people) is that you are born here, which is not just a random privilege, but it puts you in a certain situation with certain responsibilities. (And from this point, you can start thinking about basically everything in this world in a different perspective, I am not going to start on that here, you can surely imagine on your own.)

[Eorl of Rohan]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

No one committed infanticide in the story.

Niniel was pregnant when she committed suicide; that's technically an infanticide.

[Aiwendil]

Technically, I don't think it is. But that's a discussion we probably don't want to get into here.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eorl of Rohan

Niniel was pregnant when she committed suicide; that's technically an infanticide.

Words sometimes have specific meanings. Like patricide means 'killing Patrick.'

Originally Posted by obloquy

Suicide is sinful because all deliberately self-destructive practices are sinful. A righteous man recognizes his life and health as gifts from God, which he would never willfully spurn.

I was thinking about this. Those who stood beside Húrin, providing a rear guard so that Turgon could escape, knew that they were about to die. Standing, their task was to slow the advance of Morgoth's hordes. Sense would dictate that they flee, but they didn't. Not only had they made oaths to their King, but some may have known that they were sacrificing themselves so that there would still be a tomorrow, and one day, Morgoth's realm would fall.

Niniel, knowing now that her child was Turin's, may have believed that her child, being in the line of Hurin (not half, but from both sides), would allow Morgoth to continue his tortuous game with the next generation of this sorrowful family. In her despair, but also, like her family, in defiance of Morgoth, she sacrificed herself and the life of her child to thwart the Dark Lord's plans.

Who knows what life this child would have had? Thralldom? A Dark Child under Morgoth, used as a weapon against the Free Elves and Men?

Does this sanction suicide or homicide? Not in the least. This was a special person in special circumstances.

Didn't see anything proscribing suicide in Arda. Tolkien, being a Christian in our world, had other beliefs outside his created world. And it is believed that his God is a god of love and grace, which all surely need, even those like Niniel.