The Balrog vs The Witch King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

10-02-2007, 01:50 PM

These two villains are the main threats to the free & living world after Sauron, although they do not join forces. If the Witch King therefore dared to enter the realm of Moria to gain control of the riches that lay there at Sauron's bidding, & then the Balrog appeared with a sudden burst of flame, who would triumph? Or, rather, would the Witch King acknowledge the Balrog to be superior & neal to this ancient creature?

Note that the Witch King would not at this stage be in his enhanced form, if following with the logic of the book.

Morwen · 10-02-2007, 02:02 PM

If it's a contest, I would put my money on the Balrog ...being a fallen maia and all...

I can't see the Witch King, pawn of Sauron that he is, acknowledging the Balrog's supremacy though

Legate of Amon Lanc · 10-02-2007, 02:16 PM

Morwen is correct; the WK had basically just Sauron's will and there's no way he'd "convert" (the same as he didn't convert to Saruman - the only possibility would be, if the Balrog possessed the One Ring - or at least we are hinted that in "the Hunt for the Ring", where Saruman says something in that sense to WK - of course, if it's not a hyperbole). But otherwise, I think their battle could - in the best case - appear similar to the battle of Gandalf with the Balrog. I'm not sure how much the "shadow world stuff" will work and how much the Balrog would be able to harm WK, though it's true he's in fact a Maia - but the battle will most likely be a battle of power and sorcery, and if it took place on the Bridge, I'm somehow inclined to think it will end the same as the famous Gandalf vs. Balrog battle.

I am convinced that there was a similar topic already here at the Downs about half a year ago, but I can't seem to be able to find it.

obloquy · 10-02-2007, 02:50 PM

WK wouldn't even consider a hostile confrontation with Durin's Bane. He's arrogant, but not stupid. If WK appears to be aggressive towards Gandalf, it's most likely because he has no clue who Gandalf really is. The Witch-King was a Man. He was a formidable foe against other Men because of Sauron's backing, but he was on an entirely different (and lower) tier than the embodied Maiar (and even the Eldar). Durin's Bane would have feared him even less than Glorfindel did, who, you'll recall, sent him flying more than once.

By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

10-02-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

The Balrog was slain long before the Witch King received an added demonic force from Sauron. Therefore, in this thread at least, one cannot logically contend the enhanced Witch King with the Balrog. Not that it would make too much difference in this contest, in my opinion. Imagine a great servant of Morgoth being slain by a servant of Sauron?

obloquy · 10-02-2007, 03:12 PM

Are you mocking me? You quote the portion of my post in which I request that we stick to the facts regarding the Witch-King's "enhancement" (that, as far as we know for certain, it was literary rather than literal) and respond by, once again, referring to the event as if it were indisputable.

Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought.

Eönwë · 08-25-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Good point. The Witch-King tends to know when he's over matched, and when he is over matched he has a tendency to run away.

Err... Gandalf? But then again, no-one except Cirdan knew exactly what he was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obloquy

By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.

wispeight · 08-26-2008, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Err... Gandalf? But then again, no-one except Cirdan knew exactly what he was.

Yes, without Sauron he's just a mortal, however powerful and sorcerous (is that a word?). I think he still has the Gift of Men, however long it takes to reach him. A Maia is a Maia and cannot be truly killed- ever. Even an elf can't, so what makes anyone think a mere man, however powerful, could match a Maia.

~~~~~~~~
I'd say sorcerous is a word. What is 'Gift of Men'? In RTK Gandalf says, and I'm paraphrasing, "They called me the great pilgrim, I've lived three hundred lives of men and find now that I have no time."

I've barely read anything on this site in relation to its mass of information. This post is my ignoring the shallow end of the pool. What is the general consensus of the interpretation of the above quote, or any-one individual who might want to chime in with their two cents? I'm only curious about the deep end. Going back to the shallows now. Gaia mi madre, Poseidon mi padre, who 'm I? Just a riddle for fun.

Wousides · 05-17-2014, 03:03 PM

balrog is no man. he could easily kill the witch king. but still the witch king says cool think like"send forth all legions" and "I will break him". but no witch king of angmar doesnt stand 30 seconds against the mighty balrog... who is ttly awesome!

Smaug's voice · 06-10-2014, 08:11 AM

The witch-king, though one of the best villains, is still only a mortal.
the Balrog was a beast from FA, one of the first evils.
wiki has no chance.

Belegorn · 06-25-2014, 07:57 AM

The Balrog could probably fart on the Witch King and remove him from existence.

cellurdur · 06-26-2014, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belegorn

The Balrog could probably fart on the Witch King and remove him from existence.

That's obviously not the case. The Witch King especially at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields was greatly empowered by Sauron personally. I would still favour the Balrog, but Gandalf the White considered him a tough opponent so it would by no means be a walk over.

10-02-2007, 01:50 PM	#1
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	The Balrog vs The Witch King These two villains are the main threats to the free & living world after Sauron, although they do not join forces. If the Witch King therefore dared to enter the realm of Moria to gain control of the riches that lay there at Sauron's bidding, & then the Balrog appeared with a sudden burst of flame, who would triumph? Or, rather, would the Witch King acknowledge the Balrog to be superior & neal to this ancient creature? Note that the Witch King would not at this stage be in his enhanced form, if following with the logic of the book. Last edited by Mansun; 10-02-2007 at 02:12 PM.

10-02-2007, 02:02 PM	#2
Morwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 274	If it's a contest, I would put my money on the Balrog ...being a fallen maia and all... I can't see the Witch King, pawn of Sauron that he is, acknowledging the Balrog's supremacy though __________________ He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said Last edited by Morwen; 10-02-2007 at 02:05 PM.

10-02-2007, 02:16 PM	#3
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Morwen is correct; the WK had basically just Sauron's will and there's no way he'd "convert" (the same as he didn't convert to Saruman - the only possibility would be, if the Balrog possessed the One Ring - or at least we are hinted that in "the Hunt for the Ring", where Saruman says something in that sense to WK - of course, if it's not a hyperbole). But otherwise, I think their battle could - in the best case - appear similar to the battle of Gandalf with the Balrog. I'm not sure how much the "shadow world stuff" will work and how much the Balrog would be able to harm WK, though it's true he's in fact a Maia - but the battle will most likely be a battle of power and sorcery, and if it took place on the Bridge, I'm somehow inclined to think it will end the same as the famous Gandalf vs. Balrog battle. I am convinced that there was a similar topic already here at the Downs about half a year ago, but I can't seem to be able to find it. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

10-02-2007, 03:12 PM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	Are you mocking me? You quote the portion of my post in which I request that we stick to the facts regarding the Witch-King's "enhancement" (that, as far as we know for certain, it was literary rather than literal) and respond by, once again, referring to the event as if it were indisputable. Besides, you're the one who asked what would happen if they fought. Last edited by obloquy; 10-02-2007 at 08:58 PM.

05-17-2014, 03:03 PM	#9
Wousides Newly Deceased Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 9	balrog is no man. he could easily kill the witch king. but still the witch king says cool think like"send forth all legions" and "I will break him". but no witch king of angmar doesnt stand 30 seconds against the mighty balrog... who is ttly awesome! __________________ free home improvement

10-02-2007, 02:50 PM	#4
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	WK wouldn't even consider a hostile confrontation with Durin's Bane. He's arrogant, but not stupid. If WK appears to be aggressive towards Gandalf, it's most likely because he has no clue who Gandalf really is. The Witch-King was a Man. He was a formidable foe against other Men because of Sauron's backing, but he was on an entirely different (and lower) tier than the embodied Maiar (and even the Eldar). Durin's Bane would have feared him even less than Glorfindel did, who, you'll recall, sent him flying more than once. By the way, can we please stop taking for granted that Sauron actually transfused some of his Awesome Juice into the Witch-King? It's not a fact, and I feel that the argument for it is pretty tenuous.

06-10-2014, 08:11 AM	#10
Smaug's voice Newly Deceased Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: India Posts: 8	The witch-king, though one of the best villains, is still only a mortal. the Balrog was a beast from FA, one of the first evils. wiki has no chance. __________________ My armor is like tenfold shields, my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death! ~Smaug

06-25-2014, 07:57 AM	#11
Belegorn Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien Posts: 462	The Balrog could probably fart on the Witch King and remove him from existence. __________________ "For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche