Gothmog

[ninja91]

I know that Gothmog is the lieutenent of the Morgul-host. But, I have also heard from my cousin that Gothmog was also the name of a balrog. That brings up two questions:
1. Was Gothmog (orc) known to have any connection at all to the other Gothmog (balrog) ?
2. Are there possibly more than 1 balrog that existed in the third age besides the one that the Fellowship encountered in Moria?

Thanks!

[Boromir88]

1. Was Gothmog (orc) known to have any connection at all to the other Gothmog (balrog) ?

First we don't exactly know what Gothmog was, for we only receive one line from him in the books. That he was lieutenant and 2nd in command. What Jackson shows, I have no idea where he came up with Gothmog the limping, warped, bubbly, hairy...sloth thing. I doubt he was an Orc because he was commanding Haradrim and Easterling forces. Someone that high up in Sauron's ranks I doubt he would trust an Orc to lead, and seeing as he was leading Men, I think it's most likely. But since we are not told the possibility that he was an orc is still out there.

The only connection between the two Gothmogs is their names, they would not have known eachother or anything. Gothmog was Melkor's second-in-command, Lord of the Balrogs and all that hoopla. And Sauron seems to mimic that and name his second-in-command Gothmog.

2. Are there possibly more than 1 balrog that existed in the third age besides the one that the Fellowship encountered in Moria?

No, Durin's Bane was the last Balrog left. In earliest drafts Tolkien talked about armies of Balrogs and them being a race of their own, this was when he concieved balrogs as being much weaker.

However, later on he changed his mind as he made Balrogs stronger (saying they were now Maia) and he limitted the number of them:

"There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed"~Home X: Morgoth's Ring

And we are also told that Durin's Bane was the last of them:

But it is here found (there is usally a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains).~Letter 144

During the War of the Wrath the remainder of the Balrogs died, but one (Durin's Bane) escaped and took refuge in Moria.

[ninja91]

Wow! That was a great answer. I think that is so strange and compelling that we do not know what Gothmog the Morgul lieutenant was! *shudders in excitement*
Tolkien also seems to change his mind alot doesnt he? I mean with the balrog society and the orc/goblin distinction...

[A_Brandybuck]

Tolkien used many names of his old legends in Lord of the Rings. Maybe this was causes, because he was never thinking, that his Silmarillion will be published. Consequently he could have used his generated names in a new way. But this only a theory.

Back to topic. There are more names on the evil side. 'Grond' is the name of the big ram, which is used to break the gates of Minas Tirith. 'Grond' is also the name of the big hammer, which Melkor used as weapon against Fingolfin in the First Age.

In the context of the storyline, it could be, that the evil forces named themselves or their weapons with old names. A sign of valuation maybe.

Originally Posted by ninja91

Wow! That was a great answer. I think that is so strange and compelling that we do not know what Gothmog the Morgul lieutenant was! *shudders in excitement*
Tolkien also seems to change his mind alot doesnt he? I mean with the balrog society and the orc/goblin distinction...

Always. He has never stoppen to change his mind.

[ninja91]

Well, Grond being the hammer of Morgoth relates to the Grond of the Morgul-host, because the Grond of the Morgul-host was the Hammer of the Underworld.

[narfforc]

If you read the lists of Stewards, there are a whole heap of names Tolkien uses from his earlier unpublished works.

[Kuruharan]

For some squabbling about the nature of Gothmog, click here.

[narfforc]

At the end of The Battle of The Pelennor Fields the enemy soldiers that were still alive, were gathered together before the broken gates of Minas Tirith, and told someone had to pay for the damage, Aragorn asked for Gothmog to make himself known, he was answered with shouts of:

I'm Gothmog
I'm Gothmog and so was dad before me
I'm Gothmog and so is my pet rat

Aragorn pointed to the nearest and asked why they all thought they were Gothmog, the soldier answered 'Well it's a popular name innit, a bit like Paragon son of Paramount Alesser Heir of Everdulls son Evenduller'
this caused much laughing and guffawing amongst the captured enemy soldiers, who enjoyed the fact their pet name for enemy king was now out in the open.