LotR2-TTT-Seq13

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And if I built this fortress around your heart
Encircled you in trenches and barbed wire
Then let me build a bridge
For I cannot fill the chasm
And let me set the battlements on fire. -Fortress Around Your Heart by Sting


We continue the march to Helm’s Deep, and the time for absent reflections is past.

Legolas scans ahead, and he seems to know something is wrong - his face isn’t relaxed, and that’s a bad sign in the Firstborn. Mounted scouts probe ahead and one horse sniffs foul air. Above them is a Warg rider, which swoops down upon them. Here Háma falls not before the Hornburg, but in the field. The other horseman attacks, and I liked that orc/warg fought man/horse. Wargs are the steeds of the enemy, and here they are presented as such. Legolas shoots the Warg and uses his knives to dispatch its rider.

Aragorn, seeing what a happened, runs back to start a panic. Men mount up for the attack, and Théoden calls out orders. He tells Éowyn to stay with the people and to guide them to Helm’s Deep. She wants to fight, but the king presses the issue. Not sure what I was to see there.

The people make for lower ground ( ) while the riders go off to meet the wargs. Gimli starts up his comedy routine, and Aragorn stays for one last look at Éowyn.

Is he or PJ leading the shield maiden on? Lord Aragorn, if thy intentions are pure, then openly declare the desire of thy heart. Or quit messing with Éowyn; she’s had enough love’em and lose’em for one lifetime.

Legolas ‘one shot one kill’ Greenleaf kills wargs at a distance until his ride appears, at which time he does some whoopedty-do spin acrobatics to mount the running equine. I wasn’t as impressed as PJ wanted me to be.

The thud! impact of the riders is visceral. Spear and arrow, tooth and fang, axe and scimitar all spill blood on the brown tufts of grass. Gimli dismounts in the usual way, and here’s some Tylenol for John Rhys-Davies’ stunt double.

“In this scene you fall to the ground.”

“Uh, wasn’t that what I did in the last 20 scenes?”

Gimli makes to take down his first warg, but is beaten to the kill by Legolas. Thanks, Master Elf, instead of saving one of those poor men who will lay dead upon the field you take down a warg that would be dead momentarily anyway. Good thinking. Gimli is attacked again, and his attacker becomes his bane. At least we see why dwarves are different, as, seemingly, Gimli is stronger than most Middle Earthers.

Did you see Aragorn take another head? What’s with that guy? The battle scene was intense but cool as it was an open battle with no ‘sides’ and everyone was running about trying to put down as many of the enemy as possible.

Gimli is piled on yet again. And again. There’s something PJ is trying to say in a Freudian way about his treatment of this dwarf?

Aragorn, knocked from his mount, fights while being dragged along by a seemingly blind warg. Both go sailing cliffward. First Gandalf, then Boromir over the falls, and now poor Aragorn over the cliff. Tears filled my eyes at the loss . Six to go.

The wargs are routed, leaving only the task of helping the surviving good guys and sending the bad guys on their way. Legolas, Gimli and Théoden look for Aragorn, who as we know has gone cliff diving. Do you think that Théoden’s thinking, “Just my luck. The first battle and we already lose 'Mr. Fighter of the Century' and Isildur’s only remaining heir. Eorlingas, westward ho! To the Havens as fast as we can go!”

The two bean counters question an orc who has the worst dental hygiene to date. He states that Aragorn is dead, and proves it with the Evenstar. Did you notice how clean Legolas’s hands were? Seeing no sign of Aragorn they make haste to leave, and Théoden even allows the dead to become carrion. That’s a bit of a difference from the books. “Let them eat horse!” Legolas stares down at the Evenstar in his hand, and you know he’s wondering if Arwen were now available. Hmmm.

Meanwhile, Éowyn’s troop makes it to the fastness of Helm’s Deep, and I think it odd that they have so much faith in the place. Plus, from the distance that they first view it, they can’t tell if Uruks are lying in wait within. Éowyn walks through the gate and sees not the shining army that I think that she hoped to see.

Sick and hurt peasants, and despairing soldiers.

Oh my gosh! Was that a Hammer in Helm’s hand on that Statue? Duh! Maybe he should also be wearing a twice-large helmet, therefore his name?!? Or was that an ancestor of Gimli? “We honored the dwarves with a statue at Helm’s Deep as they are just so funny!”

Those two peasant children, pawns of both wizards, reunite with their mother, and that’s comforting. Éowyn takes stock of the provisions, and it seems that taters will be on the menu for some time. The return of the King is announced, and Éowyn’s heart beats faster, but it’s not just the King that she hopes to see. The riders suffered much loss at the hands (paws?) of the wargs, and one wonders why Théoden wouldn’t want to hole up a bit instead of meeting the enemy on the plains. Gimli delivers the bad news, and I’m surprised that he didn’t do it with a joke. Éowyn’s heart breaks. Her uncle and King can provide no help, and she falls to her knees, shocked and shaken.

Winter has returned to her heart.

King Théoden orders the few soldiers that he has, and also hides the women and children. His defenses are thin, and you got to wonder just how many people actually live in this country. On the other hand, as he *is* placing his troops and plans to meet the enemy, one can only wonder what would have happened if he were to have arrived at Mundburg before the siege.

At least he’s making an effort.

Still, he knows nothing of the forces Saruman arrayed against him, and nothing of outdoor plumbing. That culvert that we see will figure much in the coming storm.

Back at Orthanc, Saruman whips up some old-fashioned gunpowder while the Worm questions his work. Nice Erlenmeyer flask there. Worm almost puts himself and the wizard on the walls, so to speak, but Saruman pulls the flame back. I like that PJ went with gunpowder, as that’s how I interpreted the text, unlike Bakshi. With the wall breached, Saruman concludes that the Helmlingas will fall. Worm is none too sure, and so Saruman shows him the other part of his attack plan. Like the running joke, first Worm has to deny that something is possible and then we see that he is mistaken. The two, wizard and pupil, look from their balcony perch over an army of tens of thousands.

That’s some mud!

There’s chanting from the Uruks, and I think that they are saying, “speech!” Saruman obliges. He starts with the usual ‘fire up the troops” speech. I guess that it’s morning, as he says by nightfall the Isen will run red or something and that the Helm’s Deepers won’t need alarm clocks.

Some issues: The Uruks, though orcs 2.0, still are a little too disciplined for, well, orcs. The orderly groups, surely appealing to the retentive Sharky, seem a bit too artificial. And I don’t think that I commented on Orthanc previously, but the books state that the tower appears not to be man made and is more rough-cut. Isengard here, though interesting, is too man-made for me. Another issue is the number of Uruks. To think that since Frodo left the Shire (6 months at the most?) we’ve gone from zero to 10,000 plus Uruks is a bit crazy. At that rate, guesstimated at 55/day, Saruman could have hatched an effective force to counter the Ents, if he knew that any were coming, that is.

Anyway…

Is that a tear in Worm’s eye, the last he can shed for all of his brothers who are doomed to die? Or is he overjoyed, thinking that surely he picked the right horse in this race?

The Uruks march on to Helm’s Deep.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

King Théoden orders the few soldiers that he has, and also hides the women and children. His defenses are thin, and you got to wonder just how many people actually live in this country.

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
And in a few days there will be about 10,000 mustering at
Edoras. Were they all at National Guard maneuvers in Arnor?
Hmm. Peasants fleeing all over the (rather rocky) horse country
but not a soldier to see. Oh yeah, and Eomer has his eored on steroids
(2,000 not 100 men) riding [exactly where and to where?] without
apparently a care in the world as to their friends and relations.

And where exactly is the Home Guard of the West Emnet?

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Oops!

I didn't comment on the very end of the sequence where Merry and Pippin, perched high upon Treebeard, look and see the Wizard's Vale. They note the smoke, and Treebeard blows the comment off, as he always sees smoke rising from Isengard these days. Guess that he thought that Saruman burned coal or oil or natural gas and that's where all of the smoke came from. The two Hobbits also see the Uruks marching towards Helm's Deep. I'm not sure how they know that the war is on, but that's minor. The scene ends with a very perplexed Pip looking at the black plague marching on.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

This fire from Isengard bit really does make the viewer wonder Why didn't they just make a bunch of bombs and blast the place to smithereens? I guess that's a problem with fantasy.

And I think this would have been a perfect opportunity for Gimli to really prove himself as a dangerous warrior. He just seems to wander about the field not doing much, or sticking his axe into an already-prone Warg (incidentally, those Wargs are a shocking reflection on the most noble race ).

Legolas got his "Look at me! I'm killing 100 men all by myself!" moment in RotK; Gimli could have got a bit of a rub in TTT.

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Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

This fire from Isengard bit really does make the viewer wonder Why didn't they just make a bunch of bombs and blast the place to smithereens? I guess that's a problem with fantasy.

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that Saruman should have made more bombs and obliterated Helm's Deep? There may be two reasons for that: one, he may have been limited on how much explosives he could generate within a specific time - that mud and minerals were for hatching Uruks, not for gunpowder, and he also may have wanted to preserve as much of Helm's Deep's structure as possible, in case he would need it later when dealing with human stragglers or Sauron's troops . Plus, in movieland, we cannot have a heroic struggle when the whole place goes BOOM after the first few minutes - PJ's onslaught was more than enough.

And I think this would have been a perfect opportunity for Gimli to really prove himself as a dangerous warrior. He just seems to wander about the field not doing much, or sticking his axe into an already-prone Warg (incidentally, those Wargs are a shocking reflection on the most noble race ).

He gets a chop or two into a standing Uruk/berserker now and again. I'm not sure why PJ did not overtly show how Dwarves were different, like he did with the Elves. We get hints, like when Gimli withstands the crushing weight of two Wargs and an Orc, and that they have zero-tolerance for beer.

Legolas got his "Look at me! I'm killing 100 men all by myself!" moment in RotK; Gimli could have got a bit of a rub in TTT.

I would agree. It would have been cool to see Gimli show how Dwarves were different, beyond being silly and infatuated with body noises.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

That is a good point about Saruman wanting to use Helm's Deep himself, after he had won the war.

Sometimes, fantasy can look a little lame, though, when we see how freakin' amazing and unstoppable! something different to swords and spears are. Don't get me wrong, I much prefer the old-style of battles. But today's audience can see that scene and ask Well, if one little magic explosion — a bomb, by another name — is so amazing and deadly in fantasy land, why didn't the bad guy just use a load of them?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Sometimes, fantasy can look a little lame, though, when we see how freakin' amazing and unstoppable! something different to swords and spears are. Don't get me wrong, I much prefer the old-style of battles. But today's audience can see that scene and ask Well, if one little magic explosion — a bomb, by another name — is so amazing and deadly in fantasy land, why didn't the bad guy just use a load of them?

Even Superman is weakened by Kryptonite. Saruman's bomb production was non-magical, unlike his orcs, and untested. He may have been limited by the amount of raw materials on hand. Plus, I think that Saruman creates the bombs when Wormtongue returns to Orthanc. He could have started creating the bombs first and ended up with ten thousand of them, but may have made only 10 Uruks, and so that wouldn't have worked.

Plus, this devilry from Isengard worked so well as no one knew what those large spikey containers were, and also seemingly these devices need the 'running orc' to detonate them. Even an Elf would figure out that he/she should shoot any Uruk with an odd torch after that...

I think that the reason that the bombs are so effective is that they are placed in the culvert/tunnel underneath the wall. Not sure if they would have had the same devastating effect next to the wall. Also, using them against the gate may have made matters worse for the attackers. It could have brought the wall down on top of the ramp and/or destroyed the ramp. Did Saruman use the bombs only as a way of breaching the wall as he wanted to both capture the fortress and, as stated, keep it as intact as possible?

I would note that in the EA game, the Uruks have more bombs in carts, and these are continually used against them.

[Essex]

My only views on the warg fight is that it was well done - But this scene is a bit superfluos to me - the only plot element it gives us is that Aragorn realises there are thousands or orcs on the way later on when he jounreys to helms deep.

It was well put together and looks life like. The scenes of Helms Deep look very good as well. except for them two flipping kids reuniting with their mother that makes me cringe, and the two boys playing sword fighting as eoywn comes into the gates of helms deep - the way the boy looks around for his cue to run off looks really badly staged and drags me out of Middle-earth every time I see it....

Eoywn's face as she finds out Aragorn 'Fell' is very well acted - a picture (or a look maybe) can paint a thousand words....

Saruman looks very hagard as he walks away from the explosive mixture he's putting together (watch that flame, Grima!) - but then perks up as he's presented with his 'Nuremberg' scene - This is why the orcs where organised together in groups on the fields of Isengard - to make it look like Hitler's rally at Nuremburg.

The tear on Wormtounge's cheek, is purely because he is overwhelmed by Saruman's forces - and positively so - there is no sorrow here for the world of Men from Grima. But we've discussed this tear quite a lot in this forum so I won't go too indepth into it, LOL!!!!

[Macalaure]

The tear on Wormtounge's cheek, is purely because he is overwhelmed by Saruman's forces - and positively so - there is no sorrow here for the world of Men from Grima. But we've discussed this tear quite a lot in this forum so I won't go too indepth into it, LOL!!!!

But since it still belongs into this thread I can't resist to comment on it.

I am of opposite opinion. Surely he is awed: He sees an Uruk army which he didn't think was possible to exist.
But then he realises what this force is able to do - and destroying Rohan and its people to the very last child must have looked far better on paper. I don't even think Grima thinks about Eowyn in this situation (Saruman might have told the Uruks to spare her), it's just that all of a sudden it strikes him what Saruman's plans might look like if put into reality.
All we have to argue with is his facial expression which we see for mere seconds so it's really few, but this is how I interpret it.

The second thing is, that between now and Grima killing Saruman in the movie we will only get to see him one more time, when Isengard is flooded. If the moviemakers didn't get at least a glimpse of character development into Grima at this time, his killing of Saruman would have been completely unrealistic.

Third, Grima just isn't an overjoyed Nazi in the book, as we see especially in "Many Partings". Though this, of course, is a bad argument for the movie.

[Essex]

Third, Grima just isn't an overjoyed Nazi in the book, as we see especially in "Many Partings". Though this, of course, is a bad argument for the movie.

I'm also basibg this point on the character after listening to all the commentaries by the actors and the director/scriptwriters, where some of them actually mention the nuremburg scene, if I can remember! I'll have another listen tonight and if you get time to take a listen too, if we want to go down this (very interesting) discussion path again.......

ill try and find the original thread we discussed this on too