Would the Half-Elven vanish if they wore an elven ring?

[cellurdur]

This is my first post on these boards and I have a number of questions. I would like to hear other people's opinions on these.

The first of them is we know that the great elven rings, forged by the smiths of Eregion made mortals vanish. The Witch King vanished as did Isildur men of high Nunmenorean descent. What about the Half-Elven though?

Would Earendil have vanished before he became immortal? What about Elwing and Dior? The Silmarils were supposed to be hallowed against mortal touch, but the Half-Elven (and Beren) could touch and use them. So would they too be able to use the great rings without vanishing. Then there is Elros, who is Elrond's twin. Elrond could use the great ring without vanishing, so shouldn't his brother likewise be able to do the same thing? Changing the fate of his fea should not have changed the innate power he had, which we would expect to be equal to Elrond's or close enough to it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is my first post on these boards and I have a number of questions.

Welcome.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The first of them is we know that the great elven rings, forged by the smiths of Eregion made mortals vanish. The Witch King vanished as did Isildur men of high Nunmenorean descent. What about the Half-Elven though?

The great Elven rings, the Three held by the Elves and the Seven of the Dwarves, did not cause anyone to vanish. There is no support to say that the Nine Rings Sauron gave to Men made them vanish either. They eventually passed into Wraithdom, but that doesn't mean they instantly vanished once they put them on.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Would Earendil have vanished before he became immortal? What about Elwing and Dior?

We are only talking about the One Ring here, as that is the only one of the rings that caused anyone to vanish. As far as Earendil or Elwing putting on the One Ring, any answer would simply be conjecture. So your guess is as good as mine. Although I would like to think that Earendil would pass on putting on the One Ring.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Silmarils were supposed to be hallowed against mortal touch, but the Half-Elven (and Beren) could touch and use them. So would they too be able to use the great rings without vanishing.

Nowhere is it said that the Silmarils were hallowed against mortal touch. Why would they be? Mortals weren't even around when Feanor created the Silmarils, and the fact Beren held them without harm nullifies that argument; whereas Morgoth, Maedhros and Maglor all suffered from their touch. It has more to do with the worth and motives of the individual than race or mortality.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then there is Elros, who is Elrond's twin. Elrond could use the great ring without vanishing, so shouldn't his brother likewise be able to do the same thing? Changing the fate of his fea should not have changed the innate power he had, which we would expect to be equal to Elrond's or close enough to it.

Again, the Elven Ring Elrond wore did not confer invisibility.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Welcome.

Thank you for the welcome.

The great Elven rings, the Three held by the Elves and the Seven of the Dwarves, did not cause anyone to vanish. There is no support to say that the Nine Rings Sauron gave to Men made them vanish either. They eventually passed into Wraithdom, but that doesn't mean they instantly vanished once they put them on.

The 3, the 9 and the 7 were all included in the Great Rings made by the elves. The dwarves did not vanish, because of their stubborn nature. Gandalf though does strongly imply ALL of the great rings caused mortals to turn invisible.

Here is the quote.

'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades, he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.'

From this it is fair to assume all the Great Rings caused mortals to turn invisible. If this was not the case, then the One Ring granting Frodo invisibility would have been used as evidence of it being the One and not just another of the Great Rings.

We are only talking about the One Ring here, as that is the only one of the rings that caused anyone to vanish. As far as Earendil or Elwing putting on the One Ring, any answer would simply be conjecture. So your guess is as good as mine. Although I would like to think that Earendil would pass on putting on the One Ring.

I have provided evidence to suggest all the Great Rings caused invisibility. Earendil wielded the full power of the Elessar and the Silmaril. He seems to have greater innate power than Elrond. I agree that any answer would be conjecture, but this does not mean the conjecture is not based on reasonable evidence.

I agree though, that Earendil would likely pass on using the One Ring.

Nowhere is it said that the Silmarils were hallowed against mortal touch. Why would they be? Mortals weren't even around when Feanor created the Silmarils, and the fact Beren held them without harm nullifies that argument; whereas Morgoth, Maedhros and Maglor all suffered from their touch. It has more to do with the worth and motives of the individual than race or mortality.

The Silmarils were hallowed by Varda against mortal and evil. Beren's case is rare exception. Morgoth was evil and after the multiple kinslayings I think it judged Maedhros and Maglor evil too or at least they would fall under the unclean category.

The quote can be found in the Silmarillion.

And Varda hallowed the Silmarils, so that therefore no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will might touch them, but it was scorched and withered;

Again, the Elven Ring Elrond wore did not confer invisibility.

All the great rings confer invisibility. Gandalf tells us this and logically they would have to. Or else the Wise would be very foolish indeed not to realise than Bilbo had the One Ring.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

All the great rings confer invisibility. Gandalf tells us this and logically they would have to. Or else the Wise would be very foolish indeed not to realise than Bilbo had the One Ring.

No, they did not all confer invisibility. You are using a character in a book without complete knowledge of the subject to bolster your point. I prefer the author himself:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #131

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

If one considers that the Dwarves, too, were mortal and did not disappear, I would say Gandalf did not know what he's talking about. But that's okay, he makes false assumptions elsewhere in the book. He is not infallible. In any case, the Three Elven Rings were made solely by the Elves, and Sauron had no hand in their making; therefore, none of the powers conferred by Sauron were upon them.

The men who held the Nine Rings did not vanish instantly either. They could, if they wished, turn invisible, but they could remain visible wearing the Rings:

Originally Posted by The Silmarillion

"...those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth...They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men..."

In regards to Beren and his son, both of whom held a Silmaril unscathed, I would suggest Varda must not have been very good with spells.

[Galadriel55]

Beren was a very very very VERY special case. And Dior was not strictly mortal.

PS: welcome to the Downs, cellurdur!

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, they did not all confer invisibility. You are using a character in a book without complete knowledge of the subject to bolster your point. I prefer the author himself:

I had not seen that letter from Tolkien. His word appears to be final and Gandalf was wrong. This makes sense, because unlike the other rings, the 3 were never touched by mortal hands.

If one considers that the Dwarves, too, were mortal and did not disappear, I would say Gandalf did not know what he's talking about. But that's okay, he makes false assumptions elsewhere in the book. He is not infallible. In any case, the Three Elven Rings were made solely by the Elves, and Sauron had no hand in their making; therefore, none of the powers conferred by Sauron were upon them.

The dwarves are a special case. Aule made them very strong and sufficient. Nothing really worked on them. Really apart from greed and revenge, I don't think the dwarves were ever corrupted.

I agree Gandalf was fallible and he appears to be wrong. There was no difference between the 7 and the 9. The only distinction came in where they were hidden and to whom they were given by Sauron. It is even possible that some of the recovered 7 (the 3 Sauron had recovered were used by mortal servants of Sauron).

I think Gandalf is making a valid assumption. If the One ring conferred invisibility and the other 16 Great Rings did then he assumed so did the 3. Though a logical assumption, Tolkien confirms he was wrong.

The men who held the Nine Rings did not vanish instantly either. They could, if they wished, turn invisible, but they could remain visible wearing the Rings:

The quote from the Silmarillion does not suggest they could turn off and on the invisibility when they wanted. It could just mean that when they CHOSE to wear the ring they turned invisible. Impossible to judge for certain.

In regards to Beren and his son, both of whom held a Silmaril unscathed, I would suggest Varda must not have been very good with spells.

Beren was destined to obtain a Silmaril and was a special case. The Valar allowed it. Him being able to touch it is written as if it something noteworthy.

As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not.

As for Dior I am not convinced he was immortal. Until Earendil's voyage it seems the Valar were still unsure of what to do with the Half-Elven. It is only after Earendil enters Valinor do they make a decree. A similar situation appears to be the rehousing of elvish bodies. In Morgoth's ring Tolkien implies Manwe had yet no firm answer when the dark elves started dying and had to consult with Eru to find a solution. I would assume there was similar confusion about the Half-elven at that point.

Beren was a very very very VERY special case. And Dior was not strictly mortal.

PS: welcome to the Downs, cellurdur!

Thanks for the welcome and agree with what you said Galadriel55.

I don't think there had yet been a ruling from the Valar/Eru about Dior when he was alive.
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[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I had not seen that letter from Tolkien. His word appears to be final and Gandalf was wrong. This makes sense, because unlike the other rings, the 3 were never touched by mortal hands.

Gandalf was wearing one of the Elven rings, Narya, the Ring of Fire, given to him by Círdan when Gandalf first came to Middle-earth. It didn’t make him automatically invisible. Another Elven ring was worn by Galadriel, who was not automatically made invisible by it. The third Elven ring was worn by Elrond, who also was not automatically made invisible by it. Nor are do any of these three apparently fear being eventually turned into wraiths because of wearing an Elven-ring.

The first half of the Milton Waldmam letter appears in the “Preface to the Second Edition” in all printings of The Silmarillion since 1999 and so is easily found. It says, in part:

And finally they [the rings partly created by Sauron] had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron (‘the Necromancer’: so he is called as he cast a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of The Hobbit): such a rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible

Gandalf must be imagined to have well known about the powers of the Elven rings compared to those Rings of Power in which Sauron had a hand. That Gandalf appears to confuse the two types of rings in his explication to Frodo appears to me to be likely a confusion introduced by Tolkien who does not properly distinguish them in the words he puts into Gandàlf’s mouth. Tolkien has Gandalf claim that he believes no case of a bearer of a Great Ring of Power who freely gave up the ring to another is known, yet Gandalf himself is secretly wearing Narya at the time which was given up freely to Gandalf by Cíirdan.

As for Dior I am not convinced he was immortal. Until Earendil's voyage it seems the Valar were still unsure of what to do with the Half-Elven. It is only after Earendil enters Valinor do they make a decree.

When Dior was slain his spirit would have been summoned to Mandos and would either be placed among the other Elves there or be placed among Men to be sent out of the world. That would have been the point where the Valar would have had to decide whether Dior was a mortal Man or an immortal Elf. But Tolkien does not say.

A similar situation appears to be the rehousing of elvish bodies. In Morgoth's ring Tolkien implies Manwe had yet no firm answer when the dark elves started dying and had to consult with Eru to find a solution.

I don’t recall this. Please cite the page where this is found. Note that in the published Silmarillion some Elves had already been taken by Melkor before the existence of the Elves was known to any of the Valar.