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#121 | ||||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
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I looked at the movies with a jaundiced eye from the start. That stemmed from a basic conviction that movies, as a whole, are an inferior form of entertainment compared to books. I wasn't enthused at all. I didn't think seeing someone else's vision of the books brought to "reality" was necessary. I knew nothing anyone could produce, no matter how expensively done, could surpass, or even augment, the scenes in my mind. So my thought was : "Why bother"? Second, while I didn't fear the story would be "ruined", I was convinced fundamental things would be changed, and again, I had no interest in seeing that done. Thirdly, I despised the inevitable commercialization that would follow the movies. McDonald's collectibles, action figures, and all that. But, people said, the movies would have an upside, in that some who hadn't read the books would be induced to do so after seeing the movies. I was rather sceptical, even though I'm sure that has indeed been the case for a few. And another part of me railed that that would even be necessary. Such great books, and people won't pay any attention to them unless there's a Hollywood blockbuster associated? I thought that was a bloody shame, and I still do. I've heard the arguments; books and movies are different, can't hold them to the same standards, one can enjoy both, ad infinitum. Personally, I'll take a book over a movie any time. All that said, I did see the movies, sort of. My girlfriend, who later became my wife, wanted to see FOTR, so we did. I ended up sleeping through about a third of it, though a few pints of the local 1420 I'd had with dinner might have had something to do with that. I do remember seeing Arwen show up in place of Glorfindel, rolling my eyes at the exchanges between her and Aragorn, and the ludicrous alteration to the scene at the Ford of Bruinen. After that, it's sort of a blur. ![]() We did see the other two movies as well. At this late date, however, I don't remember much about those excursions. I recall the bits in Two Towers with Arwen rescuing Aragorn who had fallen from his horse ( ![]() We now have all three on DVD, but I've never watched them all the way through. I start thinking "There has to be something better I can be doing", and I wander off. Quote:
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Music alone proves the existence of God. Last edited by Inziladun; 09-06-2011 at 08:09 PM. |
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#122 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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Well, you could say this: Ugluk is also very unkind to everyone, but I hope you won't put him on level with the book-Boromir. He's not unkind just for the sake of it. He's not ungentle for the sake of being rough. He has more to his character than you put on. He's much deeper, and his motivations much more complex.
I don't believe that he was there "just to provide some drama". As I said, he is very important both plot-wise and character-wise to the story. It's like he doesn't die until the very end. But that is just one character. Is that enough to completely ruin a read? I first watched the movies when I was around six. My only reaction was WOW. They were cool. Not that I really understood anything, but they were cool. Shelob's lair was my favourite part, and the troll (he's not a troll! He's an orc! - I scream now) who jumped out at Frodo in Moria always scared me, even long after I knew that he was gonna do that. I probably had more impressions, but these are the only ones that I remember now. I don't jump in my seat when the troll comes out anymore. I kinda miss that. ![]() ![]() Edit: xed with Zil
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#123 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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I'm thinking of reading the books again and hopefully be able to enjoy em better than i did. Not dissing book Boromir just haven't learned to love him in the books yet. But I do love Faramir in both books and Movies
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#124 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
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![]() I'm just noting a point where I found something nice to say about the movies, that they broadened and deepened my understanding of the Boromir character - something I may never have gotten from the books. So say that either are 'all good' or 'all bad 'would be, to me, unreasonable. ![]() Note that, when they are on TV, I may leave them on if I am hoping to fall asleep as the movies serve as great background noise. I hate to watch them intently, as in the SbS I've picked them mostly to the bones, and feel that I needn't go back.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#125 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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![]() It's true, the movies have good points, but they are just so few compared to the bad points.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#126 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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Why is that? Yeah I know they leave stuff out in the movies but what can you or any of us do about it?
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#127 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#128 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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Lol no worries, alatar!
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#129 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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What can we do about it? Well, join the "haters" club... ![]() And thirdly, Legolas is a nice guy in the books (and he does sing!), but the movies' version is not him: it is a hollywood-ised elf, not a Tolkien elf. Being his fan isn't being Legolas' fan, but Orlando Bloom's fan.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#130 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,170
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What is a modern hero?
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True, it is a modern value and suggests that the normal state of human beings is to be conflicted, but the heroic or warrior values which Tolkien was working with operate on different assumptions. There, the interest lies in those who, despite their conflicted state and the challenges that face them, are able ultimately to uphold their word, their value, their responsibilities. I'm thinking mainly of Sir Gawain in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. This was the crucial flaw of Byrhtnoth (he of that Old English word ofermod in The Battle of Maldon, that he forgot his ultimate responsibility to protect his people and instead became mired in a personal code of honour (at least, according to Tolkien's analysis of him). To 'humanise' Boromir is to confuse the heroic mode that Tolkien is writing in with modern psychological relativism. I always found Boromir interesting because I think Tolkien was writing a critique of modern male hegemony, but he isn't someone I pity or like. Everyone has his or her own tastes, of course, but I'm not sure if it does a service to the story to make Boromir 'likeable'. It also, of course, makes it far more difficult to depict Aragorn's heroism in a sympathetic light and this was also a great failing of the movies. I remember having the movie ruined for me several times by folks around me who invariably broke out in derisive laughter and chatter at some of Aragorn's movements. It is Aragorn who should be given the focus of heroism, whose heroism should be tenable and real and believable in today's system of values and that Jackson utterly failed to do. He glorified the wrong guy. Okay, I think I've said enough. ![]() ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 09-07-2011 at 04:13 PM. |
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#131 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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You mak a really valid point. And maybe even glorifying Aragorn "in battle" isn't enough.
I daresay that Aragorn and Boromir are equals when it comes to strength and fighting skills and that sort of thing. (Reminds me of that passage on Caradhras, where one is described to be broader in the shoulders but the other taller... so different, but equal...) Nonetheless, Boromir dropped his pride and let Aragorn take the lead. It wasn't only because of Aragorn's high title (kings of Gondor scorned Arnorians before, so why not follow suit?). It was more because Aragorn was, well, Aragorn. It's the inner him that is superior over Boromir. He's glorified from the inside, if that makes sense. We don't see a lot of that in the movies, do we? We know he's a good fighter and a King, but are we shown his inner (should I say hidden?) wisdom, strength, nobility, power, etc? By the way, nice new siggy, Bb!
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#132 | ||||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
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![]() ![]() To quote Nickelback, "And they say that a hero can save us. I'm not gonna stand here and wait." For some reason, this seems appropriate. Quote:
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#133 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say even if i don't agree.
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#134 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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I think you should start a separate thread just about book vs movie Aragorns and Boromirs, if that topic interests you, sassyfriend. Or did you mean the whole books / movies discussion in general?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#135 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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I think in general. And I didn't mean Aragorn should let them get killed.
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#136 |
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Right here
Posts: 3,995
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In the EE, we get a deeper view of Aragorn, including a bit of the Houses of Healing. But I agree, there is not as much of it as there would be if the films were faithful to the books.
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#137 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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We barely see the Houses, much less what exactly goes on in them. And I don't think we ever find out that athelas only releases it's full healing power when Aragorn holds it in the movies. So viewers don't know about this special connection and ability.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#138 | |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,752
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Interesting discussion here on book versus movie Boromir, and his function in the story. My (now quite rusty) HoME-fu reminds me that Boromir was originally conceived as a nastier piece of work than he ended up being. There’s a suggestion in HoME VII that he starts thinking of seizing the Ring soon after the fall of Gandalf. In several early sketches, he and Aragorn head to Minas Tirith after the breaking of the Fellowship (he lies about why Frodo ran off), and when Aragorn is accepted as Lord there, Boromir heads off to seek an alliance with Saruman to help him get his position back. In one version Tolkien, contemplating the play of events after the fall of Mordor, muses, “What about Boromir? Does he repent? No – slain by Aragorn.”
![]() Anyway, the history of the composition aside, for me Boromir calls to mind Chekhov’s Gun – there’s all this talk about the powerful temptation of the Ring, you eventually have to have someone from the good side give in to it. And Boromir is tailor-made for it. From his point of view, the answer to any problem is to meet it with as much power as possible. “Valour needs first strength, then a weapon,” is his motto. He can’t really see alternatives to strength and power; if they don’t suffice, then (a la Byrhtnoth), “We shall fall valiantly in battle.” He was always the guy who was going to make a play for the Ring sooner or later. I would agree that the movie made Boromir more likable. I reckon if you want to reposition his death to the climax of FotR, you want to have him be a character that audiences really care about, and you want to make his redemption more complete. Quote:
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#139 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,499
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Plus I can never get over how he pronounces 'orc.' Always sounds like he's holding his nose. ![]()
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#140 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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Boromir helped the fellowship when Gandalf died because he had more compassion and I don't think he wanted them to die either. Aragorn was being smart but he wasn't compassionate.
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#141 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#142 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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Why? What do you mean out of duty?
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#143 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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Duty to the fellowship. Even though none of them gave actual oaths to help destroy the Ring and etc, I betcha they made "mental" ones. Boromir felt that it was his duty to help this bunch of oddballs. They would have had a much harder time without him on a number of occasions, it's true. They needed him. But he didn't go with them because of that. He went because he felt duty there, and to stand for the honour of Gondor.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#144 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 165
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Ok now I understand. Sorry about that.
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