Faramir

[Meneltarmacil]

I have noticed a lot of people complaining about how Faramir was portrayed in the movie lately. I suggest you read these lines from TTT.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>FARAMIR: I think at last we understand one another, Frodo Baggins.<BR>SOLDIER: You know the laws of our country, the laws of your father. If you let them go, your life will be forfeit.<BR>FARAMIR: Then it is forfeit. Release them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Am I the only person who makes any sense of these lines?

[Finwe]

Those lines were the ones that actually redeemed Faramir's movie character in my eyes. They were just what the book-Faramir would say, and I finally realized why he did what he did. For so long, his father had hated him, and had favored his brother over him. Now, he had the chance of winning his father's good graces, for all time. But once he said those lines, I realized that he knew that it didn't matter what his father thought of him. It only mattered that Sauron had to be defeated, and to do that, he had to let Frodo, Sam, and Gollum go, and he did, even risking death to do it.

[The Only Real Estel]

No you are not the only one. Perhaps you are the only one that doesn't understand what the rest of us are saying. Farimir was mis-portrayed. Duh. That's obvious. From the very on-set Farimir said he 'would not touch the Ring if it was lying on a highway', in the books. I don't care what Farimir said later on, he was almost exactly like Borimir at first, & that immediantly tarnished his reputation. He should never have taken the hobbits to Osigliath or anything else of that sort. I don't care that he 'finally realized he was being an idiot'. Very few other people care either. A few 'make-up' lines don't help a thing. I'm suprised YOU can't make sense of that.

[Lord of Angmar]

I was surprised at David Wenham's performance of Faramir. I think that the script didn't do him any favors, as it made him seem more like Boromir. In the beginning, he lusted for the Ring, but hid it. Then he openly forced Frodo to come with him to Osgiliath (and eventually, he though, to Minas Tirith). This is similar to Boromir's concealment of his purpose, followed by his attempt to steal the Ring. Although one can say that in the end, in the movie, Faramir did repent and that is what sets him apart from Boromir, can it not also be said that at Boromir's death, and even before, he repented of his attempted to steal the Ring? I think the movie did exactly the opposite of what the book intended by making Faramir the same as his brother, if a bit less proud.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I didn't really like that Faramir was kind a prick but I understand what PJ was going for. I think that PJ wanted to make it obivious that Faramir only whats to please his father and in the next movie I think we will see all their family problems. The Osigliath though was totally uneeded not to mention boring.

[Arwen Eruantale]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Those lines were the ones that actually redeemed Faramir's movie character in my eyes. They were just what the book-Faramir would say, and I finally realized why he did what he did. For so long, his father had hated him, and had favored his brother over him. Now, he had the chance of winning his father's good graces, for all time. But once he said those lines, I realized that he knew that it didn't matter what his father thought of him. It only mattered that Sauron had to be defeated, and to do that, he had to let Frodo, Sam, and Gollum go, and he did, even risking death to do it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Took the words right outta my fingers, Finwë...<P>Am I wierd for actually liking the "movie Faramir"? <BR>It wasn't <I>exactly</I> like the book Faramir, but I think Wenham did a good job.

[Meneltarmacil]

Welcome to the Downs, Arwen Eruantale! Enjoy being dead! <P>I guess that makes three of us who think PJ's Faramir is any good. Really, I think Faramir is more believable here than in the book. But that's just my opinion though.<P>I'm pretty sure The Only Real Estel is going to stomp all over this one, but what can I say?

[Daisy Brambleburr]

I think that David Wenhelm (is that his name??) did a good job with what he was given. He certainly looked and sounded the part anyway. I think that PJ could have stood to be a little more leniant with his character, and I too think that the Osgiliath was a bit pointless, for reasons that I won't begin to go into now. I'm not as peeved about it as some people are, but I'd have prefered to have seen the 'real' Faramir. <BR>What bothered me was Entmoot. What was <I>that</I> all about?

[Estella Brandybuck]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think that David Wenhelm (is that his name??) did a good job with what he was given.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Amen to that, <B>Daisy</B> (by the way, his name is Wenham ). For me, it wasn't the actor - it was the script itself. Yes, his words in Osgiliath brought him back on track to what his true character is, and I think that if his character continues to be written as he should be in RotK, then I personally won't have any problems with him. However, I must admit I was very disappointed with how he was portrayed in TTT movie. I understand that it was done for the regular film-goers, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. But still, I trust Wenham to do Faramir justice in RotK (if the script will let him). I mean, remember that scene in Henneth Annûn, when he picks up the Ring with his sword? In my opinion, that scene was almost as great as when Boromir picked up the Ring on Caradhras in the FotR movie...

[Meela]

I saw nothing wrong with Faramir in TTT. In fact I loved him. His character was excellent. Am I correct in saying that PJ was playing up to the relationship between Faramir and Denethor? Or was there another reason? Because it is a lovely touch to the film. But then anything relating to Denethor is super in my eyes so i can't really judge.<P>I think the meeting with Faramir adds extra suspense to the movie. I can't remember what happened in the book, but as far as I can tell, Faramir just let them go and that was it. That would make for a very dull part in the film. It's better to introduce another good-or-bad character who keeps the audience guessing what will happen.

[Arwen Eruantale]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Enjoy being dead!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have been for nearly a week now, and it seems to fit me quite nicely. <BR>Thanks for the welcome, Meneltarmacil. <P>-Arwen

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I'm pretty sure The Only Real Estel is going to stomp all over this one, but what can I say? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Meneltarmical, complete with the rollying eyes ( ), that almost made me laugh! Hilarious. Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I thought David Wenham did a good job of acting the script he was given (obviously he can't control his big nose, unless that's an LOTR only extention like Saruman's & Gandalf's ). I've never said that he didn't. My problem was with the script he was given. <BR> Meela: I've said this a lot before, but I'll say it again anyway : Although 'Borimir Farimir' did add a bit more suspense to the movie, wouldn't Shelob have added more? Seriously, a giant spider 'killing' Frodo is SOOO much better than ANOTHER crooked Borimir trying to force Frodo to give up the Ring. You kind've get the sense of 'been there seen that'. I think I've addressed the situation withought 'stomping on it' (lol)

[Meela]

As a severe arachnophobic, I can't say I would enjoy seeing a giant spider storming onto the screen in any movie.<BR>It wouldn't work in TTT. A giant spider and the Helm's Deep seige is too much at once. I know there's a lot in Rotk as well, but it seems much less than TTT, where there is so much to establish, and many more storylines, or so it seems to me. I suppose they could have gotten away with showing Sam and Frodo entering Shelob's lair and finishing the film just as we realise there's something there with them, but finding out in the next film. Suspense or what?! It would be a great ending!<BR>But I still prefer Faramir's "do-a-Boromir".<BR>Plus I was never particularly partial to the hobbits. I could well do without them.<p>[ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Meela ]

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Really, I think Faramir is more believable here than in the book. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I do agree to a certain extent, Meneltarmacil, in that the character that we are presented with in the film is far more believable as a film character, given the limitations of film, than "book" Faramir would have been. This is because there was simply no time, in my view, to get across in the film the full impact of the wonderful dialogue between Frodo and Faramir at Henneth Annun. It is this dialogue which explains Faramir's decision to let Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) continue their journey to Mordor with the Ring. In its absence, non-readers would be perplexed as to why a Captain of Gondor, and brother of Boromir, would simpy let two small Hobbits and a rather curious, sinister creature simply walk into Mordor with the Ring.<P>In the book, when Faramir and his Rangers initially come across Frodo and Sam, they are mistrustful of them, as one would expect in the circumstances. The film extends that period of mistrust until the scene in Osgiliath, when Faramir says that he thinks that he and Frodo finally understand one another. <P>Yes, Faramir's character in the film is different to that in the book, and this did trouble me when I first saw the film. But on reflection, I think that it does work for the purposes of the film. The non-reader expects him to be similar to his brother and have a similar attitude towards the Ring, and this expectation is fulfilled until the Osgiliath scene. But, crucially, we then see Faramir give up the Ring voluntarily, potentially forfeiting his life, and certainly incurring his father's wrath, in doing so. This is something that Boromir was unable to do until after he had made a violent assault on Frodo and been forcibly denied the Ring. It is here, I think, that the crucial distinction is drawn between Faramir and his brother. We start to see the noble Faramir of the book, and I agree with those who say that this aspect of his character will be developed further in RotK, particularly in the interplay between him and his father.<P>As for Osgiliath, I go along with the view that the tension of Sam and Frodo's journey needed to be built up throughout the film and finally released near the end, in parallel with the other two threads of the story. The journey to Osgiliath and the confrontation with the Nazgul acheives that. Now, you may say that the fight with Shelob could have acheived the same, but I agree with Meela that introducing such a major sequence right at the end of the film would have been too much (and could well have reduced its impact). And it would have left too little for Frodo and Sam to do in RotK, Cirth Ungol and the Sammath Naur being the only other major incidents that occur during their journey through Mordor. Personally, I am very glad that Shelob has been saved until the last film, since I believe that she will provide a fantastic curtain raiser for it.<P>The only real problem that I have with Faramir's portrayal is the basis for his decision to allow Frodo and co to continue their journey to Mordor. He has just seen Frodo almost give himself (and the Ring) up to one of the Nazgul, and yet this is portrayed as the reason for his sudden change of heart. If I had witnessed such an event, I seriously doubt that I would be happy to let this same Hobbit go wandering off into enemy territory carrying the Ring. Some argue that this incident allows Faramir to understand the effect of the Ring and see that it would be folly to bring it to Minas Tirith, but I still think that this particular part of the film could have been handled better. Having Frodo resist the lure of the Ring and stand up the Nazgul might have provided a more believable basis for Faramir's decision.<P>Overall, however, while I was intially disconcerted with the portrayal of Faramir, I do, on reflection, think that it works well within the story portrayed in the film. Of course, he is not the Faramir we all know and love from the books, but then the story told by the films is not exactly the same story that we all know and love from the books either. "Film" Faramir is an adaptation of the character in the books, just as the films themselves are adaptations of those books.

[Meneltarmacil]

*grovels* Thank you, O Mighty Saucepan Man! <P>I hope this cleared things up for some people who wondered what happened to Faramir in TTT.

[Elentári]

But still...if they hadn't had the whole Aragorn dying sub-plot and the whole tricking Treebeard into fighting changes, then I think there could have been time to establish Faramir's character properly. It still annoys me, because I watch it and automatically think 'no, that's wrong, you idiot!' And I agree about not letting them continue now that Faramir has seen Frodo almost give up the Ring.

[The Only Real Estel]

What's more pathatic than someone (me) plugging his new topic (Which Farimir is best? Book or Movie?) on someone elses topic (Meneltarmacil's) on Barrowdowns? Not much, but oh well. I don't care. Go to my topic and vote anyway, if you want to. <p>[ July 22, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Go to my topic and vote anyway, if you want to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks, Estel! I just did! And I think that Saucepan Man has pinpointed my real problem with Faramir, and that is FRODO! It is really Frodo's awful behavior that makes Faramir so hard on him and so mistrustful, so why DOES Faramir let them go in the end? I suppose they are really tied up together, and I tend to get much more up in arms about the marring and defusing of Frodo's power and poise in the movie than of Faramir's. But in this instance, their intersection makes both of them wrong, even though Faramir does the right thing and lets Frodo go; it is less of a rational decision and more of a leap of faith. I think they've broken Frodo down much too quickly, so that others are forced to pluck faith out of the air, rather than in the determination "beyond all hope" that Frodo shows when he is on the home stretch to Mordor. I can perhaps rationalize it to be a sharing of this determination between Frodo and Faramir, but really I think I need to watch the movie again before I make any more judgements on either of them (I've only seen it once). Gee, who thought I'd get into the whole Frodo/Faramir can of worms again? <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta

[Lord of Angmar]

What I never fully understood and what really plagued me about Faramir's character is that he decided to let Frodo and Sam go just moments after Frodo had deliberately and obviously offered up the One Ring to the Winged Nazgul. Does this make sense to anyone else? <P> I found that whole scene to be deplorable and unrealistic, as it would alter the entire plot if the Nazgul knew that Frodo carried the Ring (think about when he gets captured by the Orcs) and it would change the mindset of the Dark Lord knowing that the Ring was so close.

[Darby]

I was going to post this over in the which Faramir is Best thread, but then it occured to me that maybe this is a better place.<BR>So, my opinion on the whole Faramir thing...<BR>I had such a crush on book Faramir when I was a teenager. I analyzed him to bits. He was supposed to have Christ-like qualities in being able to resist the lure of the Ring, but with the human touch of a very adolescent conflict with his father ("Well, FINE, I'll go and get myself killed if that's what you want!" paraphrasing, of course. ) And a sharp not-quite-nice sense of humour, too, when he's teasing the hobbits! And some Robin Hoodish like traits when he's leading his band of men on little raids around Osgiliath and harassing the orcs, then retreating to an ultra secret hide-out behind the waterfall (which requires the hobbits be blindfolded to approach it).<BR>And then there's the problem with David Wenhem's decidedly un-raven locks.<BR>I know this scene sure won't be playing out like in the books...<BR>"And so they stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and gold, streamed out mingling in the air."<BR>So, it's book Faramir for me.<P>But, the Nazgul-almost-snatches-ring thing almost works for me in the movie context. After that incident is reported, Sauron will be <i>sure</i> that the ring is in the Golden City. He'll have a report of it on the way there, and Faramir just letting them go would be just as incomprehensible to Sauron as it seems to be to some of the folks here. <BR>BTW - I agree about the leap of faith thing being a possible explanation, which isn't book-Faramir, but maybe is movie-Faramir. Movie-Aragorn seems to do a similar thing when he "lets" Frodo go at the end of the Fellowship. Book-Aragorn would never have let Frodo go wandering off to Mordor by himself (because he was not intending to take Sam at that time).<BR>I love that scene, for what it's worth. (Especially when he's kneeling and holding Frodo's hand and looking at him with those gorgeous eyes... ooops, excuse me while I have a brief fangirl moment.) But it's definitely not canon.<BR>I imagine once I get my copy of TTT in August, and watch it with the kids, then I'll eventually get used to David Wenhem's Faramir. It was just a shock initially, since I'd had such a clear idea of who Faramir was before seeing the movie.

[The Saucepan Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And I think that Saucepan Man has pinpointed my real problem with Faramir, and that is FRODO! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree, Lyta, that (as in the case of Faramir) Book Frodo and Film Frodo are essentially two different characters. But, again, I think that Film Frodo works well within the context of the films. To my mind, the films establish sufficient noble traits in Frodo to persuade the audience that he is a worthy hero (his volunteering to take the Ring at the Council of Elrond and his treatment of Smeagol are two examples that spring to mind). Yes, he is at the same time far more vulnerable and (for want of a better word) helpless than Book Frodo, but I think that this endears him to film audiences. I do agree, however, that the effect of the Ring on him is far too pronounced by the end of TTT. It does make you wonder what kind of a gibbering wreck he will be in RotK. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> it would alter the entire plot if the Nazgul knew that Frodo carried the Ring (think about when he gets captured by the Orcs) and it would change the mindset of the Dark Lord knowing that the Ring was so close. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I actually don't see this as a problem, Lord of Angmar, and I think that Darby hit the nail on the head here. The fact that the Ring is seen by the Nazgul in Osgiliath in the company of Faramir will logically suggest to Sauron that it is on its way to Minas Tirith, thus provoking him to show his hand by marching on the city earlier than he might otherwise have done. <P>No, it is with Faramir's "leap of faith" that I have credibility difficulties - in what way does Frodo's behaviour persuade Faramir that he is the right person to take the Ring to Mordor? Aragorn's similar "leap of faith" in LotR seemed much more convincing because Aragorn had come to know Frodo so well and appreciate his qualities.

[Lord of Angmar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The fact that the Ring is seen by the Nazgul in Osgiliath in the company of Faramir will logically suggest to Sauron that it is on its way to Minas Tirith<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. The more I think about it the more plausible it becomes. I am still adamant in my objection to the way Faramir comes to his final decision about letting Frodo go.

[Lyta_Underhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>To my mind, the films establish sufficient noble traits in Frodo to persuade the audience that he is a worthy hero (his volunteering to take the Ring at the Council of Elrond and his treatment of Smeagol are two examples that spring to mind). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, I can see how Frodo works in the context of the movies, and I particularly like his quiet strength in the Mirror of Galadriel scene and his entire arrival at his decision to leave the Fellowship at Amon Hen and in the Extended version when it is clear that he is becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the Fellowship, also his interactions with Boromir at Amon Hen--a beautiful illustration of strength and desperation on both sides. I suppose the fleshing out of Faramir's character in this way will come, of necessity, in ROTK. I do, however, look forward to the video release of TTT so I can have another look at the Faramir/Frodo scenes.<P>Cheers!<BR>Lyta

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I know I'm a newbie (aka "fresh meat) on this board, but I've read LOTR many times, and I humbly think I understand it pretty well. I have seen FOTR movie, but not TT (yet). However, I am well aware of the Faramir controversy. My view? I give it to you in the words of the Encyclopedia of Arda, in its WONDERFUL "Movie-goers' Guide to The Two Towers":<P><I>The story of Frodo's meeting with Faramir has been radically modified. Tolkien's Faramir is one of the most insightful and compassionate characters in the book, intelligent enough to divine the importance of Frodo's mission, and to let him continue without hindrance. In the movie, he's lost all these qualities - deciding to take the Ring to Minas Tirith, he drags Frodo and Sam some forty miles out of their way, allowing a Nazgûl to discover the Ring in Osgiliath, before he realises he's made a mistake. <P>In fact, the idea of the Ring being revealed to one of the Ringwraiths in Osgiliath threatens to undermine the entire plot. The whole purpose of Frodo's mission is to bring the Ring to Mordor </I>in secret.<I> His only hope of success is in Sauron's ignorance of the Ring's whereabouts, but here we seem to see one of Sauron's slaves discovering its exact location, and on the very borders of his master's realm. It's not completely clear how Frodo survives this encounter - no such dangerous and foolhardy adventure occurs in the book. <P>Addendum<BR>The feedback we've had on this point suggests that it's worth exploring in a bit more detail. A lot of people have pointed out that Sauron already knew that the Ring was in the hands of a hobbit, and would have expected it to be on its way to Minas Tirith, so its appearance in Osgiliath, only about twenty miles from the City of Gondor, wouldn't have made a significant difference to his plans. <P>Actually, at this point in Tolkien's original story, we have a clearer idea of Sauron's beliefs about the Ring than this suggests. He knew about Saruman's capture of the hobbits beneath Amon Hen, and assumed that one of these had been the Ring-bearer. Through Saruman's palantír (in a scene that hasn't yet appeared in the movie version) he says, 'Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once.' </I>(The Two Towers<I> III 11, </I>The Palantír<I>). Soon after this, he discovered Isengard had been overthrown, and so would presume that the Ring was in the possession of the Rohirrim, out of his reach at that time, but far from Minas Tirith, too. <P>The situation presented by the movie would overturn all these presumptions, suddenly presenting him with the Ring all-but unguarded on his own borders. Of course it's impossible to say with certainty what would have happened in a situation like this, it's also difficult to believe that it wouldn't have affected Sauron's actions in any way at all. Having presumed the Ring to be hundreds of miles away, he would suddenly have found it on his own borders - a few minutes' flight for the Nazgûl, and with a huge army stationed just a few leagues away at Minas Morgul. Given this extraordinary opportunity - the key to victory dangled in front of his grasp - Sauron would surely have made </I>some<I> attempt to recapture it. </I><BR> <A HREF="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</A>

[HCIsland]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Given this extraordinary opportunity - the key to victory dangled in front of his grasp - Sauron would surely have made some attempt to recapture it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Which is exactly what we will likely see happening at the beginning of RotK: The Witch King leading a host of Mordor from Minas Morgul.<P>What's thrown me though is Jackson's own comments on the preview for RotK that is packaged with TTT DVD. Here he says that Sauron thinks Pippin has The Ring (which is closer to the book). So which is it? Does Sauron think The Ring is in Osgiliath or Isengard? Perhaps He thinks it is in Osgiliath but Gandalf and company thinks that He thinks it is in Isengard. Now, I'm really confused. <P>I've also heard the argument that the Nazgul cannot really sense the presence of The Ring until it is put on. After all, it's not like Frodo was any closer to the Ringwraith in Osgiliath than he was by the road in The Shire. This combined with the poor eye-sight of the wraith may have meant that it didn't even realize The Ring was there.<P>I don't know, but I am confused on this one. Personally, I'm withholding judgement until I see how it all plays out on the screen.<P>Oh, and welcome E&E (if I may call you that).<P>H.C.

[Arwen Eruantale]

Welcome to the Downs, Elladan! (or is that Elrohir? lol.) I hope you enjoy a long stay! <P>A very interesting bit of commentary, if I might say so... is the website where you found the encylopedia? or is that a book?

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Thanks! And, yes, you may call me E&E. They do on another LOTR board...<P>I am Elladan. My brother Elrohir may eventually show up.<P>As to the Witch-king argument, if it happens in the timing of the book, I find it impossible that Sauron would have waited as long as he did. Remember, he had already sent a Nazgul across the Anduin to Isengard (at this point in the book), which, according to Gandalf, was a sign of impending war and the reason Gandalf and Pippin immediately rode off to Minas Tirith. Of course, the ultimate reason Sauron triggered the war (in the book) was Aragorn's looking into the Palantir of Orthanc.<P>I would think that, with the immediate knowledge that the Ring was, at that very moment, in Osgiliath, Sauron would have sent all the Nazgul to that place immediately while at the same time sending an army out of Minas Morgul to that location as well.<P>Also, it is clear from the book that the Nazgul can sense the Ring even when the Ringbearer doesn't have it on. Aragorn makes that statement at Weathertop just before the attack, and the Witch-king is also drawn by it just as he leads the army out of Minas Morgul.<P>And yes, that site is the encyclopedia itself.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I think they've broken Frodo down much too quickly <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree!!<P><BR>I have this niggling little feeling that all the palantír stuff will be missed out completely because of the whole Frodo-Nazgul episode. The situation would confuse non-bookies too much if there was the whole Gandalf &co thinking Sauron thought Saruman had the 'dainty'. In fact, stuff the non-bookies, it's confusing me too...

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Meneltarmacil,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> FARAMIR: I think at last we understand one another, Frodo Baggins.<BR>SOLDIER: You know the laws of our country, the laws of your father. If you let them go, your life will be forfeit.<BR>FARAMIR: Then it is forfeit. Release them. <P>Am I the only person who makes any sense of these lines? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes and no. It seems you feel that Movie-Faramir's willingness to give up his life excuses whatever lapses in behavior he had during his previous scenes. I don't think it does. <P>The problems I have with Movie-Faramir:<BR>1) Boromir tries to take the Ring, repents, and gives up his life to further the quest of the Ringbearer. Faramir takes Frodo (who he knows has the Ring), then repents and offers to give up his life to further the quest of the Ringbearer. The only real difference in the two situations is that Faramir's still alive at the end of it while Boromir isn't, and it's just due to luck rather than due to differences between the two brothers. <P>2) Actually, Boromir is the BETTER of the two brothers in the movies. Even when he tries to take the Ring, he treats Frodo as a <B>person</B>. Movie-Faramir treats Frodo like a <B>thing</B>: Frodo is just the box that holds the Ring. Viewing people as non-people is the first step toward justifying atrocities and is an act of evil. Book-Faramir treated everyone with respect, even Gollum.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "Take this creature away, Anborn. Treat him gently, but watch him. ... Smeagol ... Leave us now, and take your fish!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>3) As Lord of Angmar and The Saucepan Man have pointed out, Movie-Faramir is irrational. He sees Frodo just about hand the Ring to the enemy, and this suddenly turns him into a self-sacrificing good guy. Why? It makes no sense. I don't care if it furthers the plot or not; it should make sense within the context of the story and it doesn't. <P>4) Movie-Faramir says to Frodo "at last we understand one another," which is patently untrue. Frodo understands <B>nothing</B> about Faramir, because Faramir hasn't told him anything, and Faramir understands nothing about Frodo because Faramir hasn't been <B>listening</B> either.<P>After seeing the ROTK preview, I'm convinced Pippin and Aragorn will look into the palantir, making the whole Osgiliath scene a bloody waste of film. Why would Sauron think Pippin has the Ring unless Pippin looks into the palantir? Also Aragorn says "he's gone unchallenged long enough" -- the "he" is unlikely to be anyone other than Sauron. (Aragorn: Actually, I was talking about that windbag of a healer in Minas Tirith. )<P>Sorry about the ranting.<P>For a good article on Tolkien and personhood, go to tORN:<P><A HREF="http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/081503_01.html" TARGET=_blank>Greenbooks: Power in the Name</A><P>I disagree with the author about Movie-Faramir (shall we just call him Movamir?) but the article is very good reading.<P>What do you think?<BR>-Lily