Question about copyrighting and stuff like that...

[Meneltarmacil]

Okay, I can't really find if this question has been answered before, so I'm just going to ask it here.

Can things like elvish screennames and the threads in this forum featuring LOTR characters (like the RPGs, for example) be considered infringements on copyright? I've heard of the Tolkien Estate blocking the publication of texts in Elvish before, and putting this kind of stuff up on websties may count as publication to a certain extent.

Anyhow, apologies if this sounds kind of stupid; I was just concerned.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I wouldn't think so. They don't sue a newspaper review for use of the book's title or character reviews, now do they? If they do... then... I'd better put a stop to some upcoming Newspapers.

I don't have a great knowledge of the law on this subject (or, indeed, any subject), but I think that, if the Tolkien estate ever found this site then it might be considered free advertising. Countless are the books I have bought because of this forum.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'm not an intellectual property lawyer and I can, in any event, only speak to the UK legal position.

Under UK law, there is no copyright in a name. Copyright protects artistic works - eg, books, sound recordings, paintings etc - but not individual elements, such as names, phrases etc, within them.

Names can be eligible for protection as a trade mark, and I believe that a number of LotR-related names have been registered as such in connection with LotR merchandise (action figures etc). However, a trade mark will only be infringed when another person uses the same name commercially in connection with the same, or similar, goods or services.

Hope that helps.

[Meneltarmacil]

Thanks, Sauce, for the reply. I, however, am from the U.S., where things are probably different.

[The Might]

I was wondering about quotes.
How big does an excerpt have to be to be considered illegal, and no longer a legal quote?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by The Might

I was wondering about quotes.
How big does an excerpt have to be to be considered illegal, and no longer a legal quote?

Any quotation from a literary work beyond a mere name, title, slogan or phrase will generally constitute a breach of copyright in that work. However, under the "fair dealing" exception, it is permissible to make single copies or take short extracts of works when used for non-commercial research or private study (although sufficient acknowledgement of the author should be included).

Originally Posted by Menel

I, however, am from the U.S., where things are probably different.

The US Copyright Office website looks to be a useful resource in this regard. From a brief review, US law in this area looks to be broadly the same in terms of the points addressed above.

[Durelin]

Most authors (and likely those who help Christopher Tolkien manage Tolkien's estate, if not Christopher Tolkien himself) are well aware of things like fan-fiction and roleplaying. Because of this, some authors have actually strictly said that they forbid these things, and thus it is considered illegal to use their characters, places, etc. But Tolkien is not one of those.

The list is somewhere...I'll go look for it.

[Nogrod]

Isn't the main reason for there being any copyright-laws in the first place the point that creative people get their pay from their work? At least if one looks at widely known cases concerning breaches to the copyright-laws they always carry the element of making or losing money in them. It may be that there are other concerns there too, but usually they seem to be acted upon only after there are some considerable amounts of money involved...

So if someone prints a book by someone else and sells them on the streets or burns movies to dvd's and sells them he's breaking the copyright. Or if someone shares music in the net thus hindering the sales of the album concerned he breaches the law.

In the academic circles it's quite normal to make even fairly long quotes. Fex. in the literary studies you may need to quote a whole work, like a poem, if you're going to analyse it in your own study. And I have yet to hear a case where an author would have denied the student's or reseacher's right to do that based on copyright-laws.

So long as you don't intend to make a profit with Tolkien or to share his works online, I think you can sleep your nights in peace, Menel.

[Durelin]

In case you're (or anyone is) interested... Here's the best list I can find; most can be found on "fanfiction.net."

P.N. Elrod
Raymond Feist
Terry Goodkind
Laurell K. Hamilton
Robin Hobb
Anne McCaffrey *
Dennis L. McKiernan
Robin McKinley
Irene Radford
Anne Rice
Nora Roberts/J.D. Robb
Lynn Flewelling**
Chelsea Quinn Yarbro
Marion Zimmer Bradley
Mercedes Lackey
David Webber
not an author, but a property... Archie Comics

* - it has been brought to my attention a few times that Ms. McCaffrey has changed her policy on fanfic, however, she doesn't want any fanfic on 'slasher' sites, and since the vast, vast majority of fics on this comm are slashy, i still think the best way to comply with her wishes is to forbid fics from her books. sorry!

** - Lynn Flewelling asked people personally not to write fanfic

~From: http://community.livejournal.com/fic_on_demand/325.html

Basically, I believe the authors have specific copyrights that bar people from using their characters, except in certain circumstances that have nothing to do with fanfic, roleplaying, or anything like that. I imagine the reasoning is that they are using the characters as characters, as part of a creative process, and so that kind of crosses over to the author's creative process...and is likely to clash with it. So some are prickly about that, some aren't.

And if you think that's an unreliable source...I beg to differ. Those fanfic people know their stuff.

[Meneltarmacil]

Quite honestly, I don't know about all this, and I'd actually like to just leave this site and be done with it soon.

The problem, of course, is that my posts will still be here and it'll take around 26 hours of work to delete them all. Is there any way the admins/mods can just say"delete all posts by this user" and remove them all?

EDIT: Actually, I've probably taken things a little too far here. Basically, I may leave for a while while I get a few things resolved, and I'm not sure what I'll do later on. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I should really make it any clearer than that.

[Mithalwen]

Menel, I very much doubt that anything you have done here could get you into trouble. I have to say I am intrigued by why you are so agitated but I am sure that it is unnecessary. From what I have observed, The Tolkien Estate act if people do things which directly infringe copyright such as publishing CT's maps or publish defamatory things (not sure if defaming via the internet counts as transitory or fixed ie slander or libel and that uncertainty should not be interpreted by the legal beagles as a request for their opinion - at least of the billable variety ).

Much of the content of the Downs and the other "serious" Tolkien sites is effectively a continuous symposium on Tolkien as a writer. I am fairly sure academic discussion does not infringe copyright. If you print it off and sell it ..yes you would need permission to quote (BTW if you go to your library there will probably be a notice by the photocopier telling you about the amount of a work you are allowed to copy before you break the law... something as a student I occasionally was obliged to honour in the breach rather than the observance ).

The fact is we are developing the readership... people who liked the films are encouraged to read the books, those who have read the canon are pointed towards HoME, those of us who have HoME obsessively attempt to fill the gaps in completing the complete bibliography.

The other aspects of the Downs are not disrespectful.. tolerated if not approved of perhaps.

The Encyclopedia of Arda makes comprehensive use of the names etc and they are unofficial cf this disclaimer

As for fan fic/RPG well I should think we are a long way down the list of targets if you look at some of the stuff out there..and if you are squeamish you may not

Finally, it will not be very fair on the people with whom you interacted if you systematically delete your posts. I do suggest you contact a mod/admin privately with your concerns before you take such a drastic step.

[Volo]

I wouldn't care a little bit, if anything I have done so far here on the Downs is illegal...

[mormegil]

I found this helpful from the U.S. Copyright site that Saucie provided, I know it's late but you know the saying...

How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians

This doesn't cover fan fiction but obviously discussing the books and using quotes, even rather lengthy quotes (Boro, I'm looking at you ) is in no way a violation of copyright. Accordingly I interpret this to also mean fan fiction is not a violation of copyright inasmuch as we give credit to Tolkien for the source which this site has adequately and satisfactorily given.

[Elmo]

I thought 'hobbit' was copyright and that is the reason most of the shoddy rip offs of lotr use the word 'halfling'

[Mithalwen]

Hmm hobbit as a word and a concept is clearly part of Tolkien's personal creation in a way that elves, dwarves and dragons, as preexisting "dictionary words" are not. It is a trademark of the Tolkien Estate according to Wikipedia and that is why halfling is used. However using the word or character names (many of which ar trademarked) is only a problem if you are doing it for commercial purpose - so Sauce is unlikely to get sued for calling his dog Frodo .

Volo - while I think Menel was overreacting it isn't something to be flippant about - people have got into trouble with illegal music downloads and most writers and artists (including Tolkien for much of his life) lead financially precarious lives and deserve to have the fruits of their labour protected. Given that so much of the revenue from the Tolkien estate goes to a huge range of humanitarian and educational charities vie the incredibly effecient Tolkien Trust , I for one do not begrudge it protecting its rights.

[Volo]

Yes, I like deciding such moralities myself. If we got money for what we wrote here, it would be rather immoral to do so without J.R.R. Tolkien's approval. But if the copywrite owner isn't J.R.R. Tolkien, nor a anybody he himself put in charge, then that person shouldn't get copywrite money. Ah... Just random thoughts... As long as we don't start selling this site or brainwashing people with it (too openly), I see it as moral.

[Boromir88]

I just found this thread...

even rather lengthy quotes (Boro, I'm looking at you )~morm

Don't look at me!

Copyright, plagiarism...all that stuff can be a serious offense, but it's really quite easy to avoid. Here's a few things that profs and such have instructed about making sure you're not plagiarizing, or breaking any copyright.

That whole thing about 'changing every three words' is a load of crap...you can still be breaking 'laws' by mixing around sentences and changing every few words. The safest way to avoid plagiarism is just cite it.

One of my college professors had told me an excellent statement about the whole issue that I always keep in mind and that is...

'Anything that you do not have cited I am taking it as that is your own work and you are presenting it to me as your own work.'

And that is something everyone should be aware of...if you don't have something cited that means you're telling people that's your own work (and if it happens to not be your own work you can get into serious trouble). If you cite it and aren't trying to make a profit from it, you shouldn't have to worry about breaking copyright or plagiarizing.

Hope that helps ya Menel.

I hardly think the Tolkien Estate is going to get their knickers in a twist regarding either scholarly debate and/or good-natured RPGing in the LOTR universe...

What's the huge concern? I did a search for both LOTR RPG's and MMORPG's and found a load of websites, with little or no mention of JRR, Tolkien, or Tolkien's estate. Perhaps if lawsuits will be levied, they'll go after Decipher first!

* Sample LOTR RPG: http://lotrrpg.decipher.com/about.htm
* Sample LOTR MMORPG: http://www.lotrmmorpg.com/

To tell the truth, I'm not much for roleplaying anymore... *hides grey hairs*