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02-11-2008, 09:35 PM | #1 |
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Dol Guldur
Evening all,
I've always been fascinated by the idea of Dol Guldur; perhaps because it is only described in the scantest detail in LOTR and The Silmarillion (I've not read HoME <gasp!>), and therefore it remains very mysterious to me, sitting just outside my comprehension, beckoning my curiosity. Do any of you knowledgeable Tolkienites have an opinion on the appearance of Sauron's forest stronghold? For instance, was it a vast tower akin in appearance to the Barad-dur (seems unlikely), or was it more of an underground affair like Utumno/Angband? Perhaps it was more of a system of well-ventilated caves like the palace of the Elves of Mirkwood? I'm thinking there may be some obscure passage written by Tolkien that more clearly illustrates the appearance of Dol Guldur, and if so, this is the best place to find it, I reckons. Rightly or wrongly, I've always viewed it as a tower, but a more subtle tower than the Barad-dur. Though I expect it would have to be fairly capacious considering whole armies were barracked there. Any help with this matter would be appreciated. Thanks. |
02-12-2008, 04:35 AM | #2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Welcome, Stoatly Grimes! You have knocked at the right door, at least concerning the discussion, because I am not sure whether there is anything about the appearance of Dol Guldur anywhere. Indeed, it's very mysterious and personally, I find it also a very intriguing topic (and if you look at my screenname here, you may find out why). I always imagined - but only imagined, and it has nothing to do with any evidence, because I don't know of any - Dol Guldur as an above-ground structure, rather flat than tower-like, something similar to Minas Tirith, if I had to use an example. A walled structure, a "little city", with some fortress, but not a high one, like a tower, but low one, like a simple keep. Actually, in the Appendices to LotR, it is said that after the War of the Ring, Galadriel "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits". So we can conclude that it was some above-ground structure with walls, and there were some pits underground, probably dungeons like the one where Thráin was imprisoned and where Gandalf found him. Other details, like whether Sauron during his stay there dwelt in the highest tower or somewhere underground, are probably left to speculation. And don't gasp about not reading HoME, I haven't either (though only because it's impossible to obtain it where I live), and I believe many haven't, so hereby I call anyone who did to tell us if there is anything written in there about Dol Guldur.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-12-2008, 12:55 PM | #3 |
Wight
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I have not read the History of Middle-earth books either. This probably isn’t considered cannon but here is an artwork image of Dol Guldur from Battle for Middle-Earth II -
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02-12-2008, 12:59 PM | #4 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Looks nice. I have imagined it similarly, only less red and less... horned.
I have seen several paintings of Dol Guldur, but I did not post them here, mainly because I don't know about links to them on the internet, and partially because I have them on M-E collectible cards (and it does not look that nice even when scanned, though if you wanted for the sake of this thread...). And partially because they are not still 100% how I imagine Dol Guldur - just a little more than this one.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-12-2008, 01:46 PM | #5 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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It kind of annoys me that people feel a need to make the buildings look evil in such an obviouse way. . .I would not mind if they looked like any other building or you could just make them a bit sinicter or simply dark. . . |
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02-12-2008, 02:02 PM | #6 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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02-12-2008, 03:24 PM | #7 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Dol Guldur was originally known as Amon Lanc
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I don't think it was ever that flashy and revealing ("This way to the Evil Overlord!") as in the picture posted above. Most likely it has been quite ordinary and seemingly of no great strength or importance. After all the Wise let it be for a thousand years and were very slow in comprehending the identity of the Necromancer. |
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02-12-2008, 03:38 PM | #8 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Oh! Really? Wow, what an interesting revelation...
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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02-12-2008, 04:07 PM | #9 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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02-12-2008, 04:11 PM | #10 |
Odinic Wanderer
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I think we should beat up Legate for that smug remark.
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02-12-2008, 04:12 PM | #11 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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I know. I just couldn't resist
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-12-2008, 05:19 PM | #12 | |
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Thanks all for the responses. I agree that the artwork above - while nice - has too much of a Jackson-influence about it, with the superfluous horns and ghoulish red light. |
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02-12-2008, 05:39 PM | #13 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I would agree that Dol Guldur would have to be fairly modest in apperance, proably a small stone keep with most of the actual archetecture subterrenean. If nothing else, the top of Dol Guldur would have to be below the top of the trees of Mirkwood, or it would be easily visible, if not by the elves, than by someone looking from outside of the woods from a higer elevation.
On a related note to this I have alawys wondered exactly how Saron mamged to travel from Dol Guldur to Barad Dur when it was finally ready. Sauron was presumable already in his eye from by them and while extemely powerful, this form is not particualry motile. Or am I off in my guesses and sauron was still in his Giant warrior form at the time, capable of riding. |
02-12-2008, 06:53 PM | #14 |
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It does seem to me that the above picture is a trifle flashy for a place Sauron used to hide out while he was rebuilding his strength. It's quite creepy looking, but does it make sense as a place for someone trying to pass himself off as the Necromancer rather than the Dark Lord? This fairly shrieks "someone important (and not just a lesser Nazgul) lives here." I always tended to think of Dol Guldur as your basic medieval stronghold, plain, fortified, and rather unimpressive, but effective.
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02-13-2008, 12:29 AM | #15 |
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Stoatly Grimes -
Alfirin - In the books Sauron had neither the "Giant warrior" nor "the Eye" forms. At first, back in the Second Age, he had been a shape-shifter, able to assume any guise from a wolf to a snake to Elven-like fair Annatar. Then when his material body had perished in the fall of Numenor, he lost the ability to assume a fair guise. He made himself a new body - humanoid, higher than any man "but NOT gigantic". This shape was terrible to look upon. Then Elendil and Gil-Galad brought Sauron down and Isildur took the Ring. In a millennium or more, Sauron was able to make himself a new body yet again - seemingly the exact copy of his last one, with the missing finger. In this guise he stayed till the very end. Last edited by Gordis; 02-13-2008 at 12:40 AM. |
02-13-2008, 02:39 AM | #16 |
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I find it curious that Galdalf was able to enter Dol Guldur when Sauron was present.
How did he manage this? If Dol Guldur was a stronghold you imagine it being foritfied with stone walls and a big main gate, staffed with legions of evil men, orcs and wraiths. But would Galdalf be able to entre through the main gate with Sauron present? Surely not, even if he came in disguise. Perhaps he came into the underground catacombs through some back door he discovered. Or maybe Dol Guldur was more like a haunted village, much like the town of Minas Morgul. |
02-13-2008, 04:00 AM | #17 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Though, knowing Gandalf, I would not underestimate him. If a group of Orcs or Trolls was guarding the gates, I can imagine good old Gandalf disguised as an Orc, or using his ventriloquism trick or other things to get past them (like that invisibility-thing he did when pursuing the Dwarves who were captured by the Misty Mountain Goblins). Nay, I believe getting in was not a problem, he only had to take care not to be caught - and something implies that he was spotted and alarm was raised and he had to run away shooting fire and smoke all around the place (somewhere he says "I barely got out of there alive"). It is obvious that when he found Thráin there, he revealed himself to him in his normal shape - possibly, he found a Dwarven prisoner and wanted to help him, but the old Dwarf only managed to give him the map and the key and died. But what intrigues me is the fact that Gandalf revealed who "the Necromancer" really is - and that is: did he overhear some captains' discussion - but I don't know from whichever they said he could be as sure as he was that Sauron is there - or did he see Sauron personally? He might took a peek through a keyhole into his throne chamber or something, but still...?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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02-13-2008, 04:19 AM | #18 | |
shadow of a doubt
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02-13-2008, 04:49 AM | #19 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Exactly. I was beginning to think about a fan-fiction. Then I went and I am just watching one movie which I felt like in similar mood. Maybe I'll catch some inspiration and write something Don't you want to try a cooperative work on a script?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-13-2008, 05:06 AM | #20 | |
shadow of a doubt
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I actually think the second "Hobbit"-movie will feature Gandalf's visit to Dol Guldur much like you described it if it is ever made, which I certainly hope it will be. |
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02-13-2008, 05:23 AM | #21 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Yes, and that's what I am afraid of: I believe, among other things, that Dol Guldur there would look like the picture above.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
02-13-2008, 09:30 AM | #22 |
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Not that it seems to make any difference to film-makers, but Gandalf's visit to the dungeons of Dol Guldur was over and done with by the time of The Hobbit. He got the key and the map from Thrain in the dungeons, and those he turned over to Thorin early in the story. They might get around to showing the White Council attacking Dol Guldur, though. And I also shudder to think of it looking like that picture.
Minas Morgul, by the bye, was originally a fortress of Gondor, Minas Ithil, and it would make sense that it look like other places built by the Numenoreans. -- Minas Tirith, Orthanc, etc. But I don't believe they built Dol Guldur -- or is my memory just failing me?
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02-13-2008, 09:35 AM | #23 | |
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Isn’t a partial description of Dol Guldur given in the Fellowship of the Ring?
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02-13-2008, 09:50 AM | #24 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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By the way - to avoid a double-post, Gandalf indeed entered Dol Guldur in disguise: Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 02-13-2008 at 09:57 AM. |
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02-13-2008, 03:50 PM | #25 | ||
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*ponders* Some kind of contact or cross referencing may have been required.
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02-13-2008, 04:40 PM | #26 | |
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by Elmo; 02-13-2008 at 04:43 PM. |
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02-13-2008, 04:42 PM | #27 | |
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Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
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02-13-2008, 04:47 PM | #28 | ||
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I think it would be similar to the way that Manwe failed to recognize Melkor when the Valar defeated him in the War of the Powers.
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02-13-2008, 05:03 PM | #29 | ||||||
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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02-14-2008, 01:04 AM | #30 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I think Sauron came to know about the Istari and Gandalf in particular much-much earlier - for hadn't he run away when Gandalf came to Dol Guldur the first time in 2063? Sauron had been so afraid of him that he hid for 400 years somewhere in the East. Also consider that the Witch-King knew about Gandalf, (maybe from Sauron, maybe from personal experience during his rule of Angmar), recognized his power and feared his involvement with the Ring: Quote:
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02-14-2008, 04:21 AM | #31 | ||||
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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02-14-2008, 07:18 AM | #32 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As for the Witch-King, he surely was aware of Gandalf's power. The WK may or may not have known that Gandalf was a Maia; however, given his extensive experience with Sauron, I believe he would know a Maia when he saw one. |
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02-14-2008, 07:35 AM | #33 | |||
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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02-14-2008, 11:23 AM | #34 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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And the quote you have provided doesn’t tell that the incarnate Maiar had lost all memory of their former lives. Quote:
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But a hobbit or an ordinary man would probably mistake Glorfindel for Legolas (supposing the latter were blond as well). The WK would never make such a mistake, as Glorfindel shines in the Spirit world, while Legolas doesn’t. Do you know how Maiar look in the Spirit World? I don’t. Logically they should have some presence there, no less than Calaquendi Elves (for have they not seen the Light of the Trees as well?). Thus it may well be that the Calaquendi Elves glow, for instance, orange, while Maiar have pure white glow. And, if that is the case, then the WK would be able to tell that the wizards and the Barlog have a glow unsettlingly similar to that of Sauron. Thus the three are of the same kind – Maiar. And yea, the Witch-King being an educated High Numenorean in life, and a close associate of Sauron in wraithdom, most likely knew full well that Barlogs were Maiar in Melkor’s service. To whom do you think Sauron told his First Age tales while in his cups? Last edited by Gordis; 02-14-2008 at 11:47 AM. |
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02-19-2008, 05:41 PM | #35 |
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02-19-2008, 07:36 PM | #36 |
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Three of them were Númenórean lords; I don't think Tolkien ever said which three.
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02-19-2008, 08:10 PM | #37 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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All we definitvely know is that Khamul (the second in Command ringwraith) was a King of some group of the Easterlings before turning Wraith. However given that the Witch king is the Witch King, as evidence is made that he was a king long before he became a wraith, I feel it unlikely that he can be numbered amoung the Numenorean wraiths. While it would be a compelling sign of Saurons sucess in corrupting the Numernoreans if the three ring reciptients were members of the Numernorean Royal line, it seems likey that if Tolkein had meant it to be, he would have certainly said so. I feel that the Numernorean three were probably all sorcerors in life, (Tolkein said that some of the Wraiths were) icidentally I also think that the witch king was proaobly the first man Sauron gave a ring to. (The three to Numernor seems to suggest that Sauron did not give all of the rings to thier recipients at once, but waited for likely candidates to appear to him.) and command of the Nazgul host (not to mention command of Sauron's entire army!) would seem to be the kind of thing sauron would grant to his most loyal wraith which given sauron would proably transalte to the one that had been with him longest.
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02-19-2008, 08:42 PM | #38 | |
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But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.
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02-19-2008, 09:30 PM | #39 | |
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As to the W-K- that derives from his old title (Witch) King of Angmar. Although it's not out of the question that he or some other Wraith might have been ruler of a Black Numenorean realm, I doubt any BN colonists would have dared take the title of King so long as the House of Elros ruled across the Sea. In fact, one might suppose that the Numenorean Nazgul were the last created- during Saurons captivity. But that wouldn't really leave enough time for the wraithing process to be completed.
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02-20-2008, 02:47 AM | #40 | ||
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And concerning WK, I agree with Nerwen - the Lord of the Nazgul achieved this "King" title only after his reign in Angmar, which is Third Age.
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