Werewolf LXXXIII: The Nightmare on the East Road

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'd still wonder how we're to single out wightish behavior. The BW will have an interest in lying low and not attracting attention. And not being tied to a particular side will make it that much easier to do that.

Overall, I'd agree with those who say the BW should not be the first priority here. But as I said, if xe's outed by a Seer dream and we don't have a better choice, go for the lynch. Otherwise, leave it to Tom.

The real question is, how do we get rid of Tom? Apparently he's one of the "evils" too:

Originally Posted by The Rules

The innocents win if they eliminate all evils from their town (wolves and Barrow-wight) - this includes Tom Bombadil.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The real question is, how do we get rid of Tom? Apparently he's one of the "evils" too:

Heh. I read that as meaning Tom wins if he and the rest of the innocents get rid of the wolves and the BW. Unless Tom's been hiding some dark secret?

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Volo

Even though the BW isn't too harmful now, and can even be really useful later on, it is in our nature to banish all evil, be it harmful or not.

I agree with this. If the Barrow-Wight isn't on our side, she's (potentially) against us, and I'd much rather we didn't have to worry about her in the later stages when it really matters whether she plays for us or for the wolves.

As for speculating on whether a wolf might try to pretend to be the BW, why not? If there's a consensus we're not going to lynch someone just because they look like the BW, it'll be more than convenient for a wolf to do exactly that. Wolves have pretended to be cobblers if the village has thought finding the cobbler isn't important.
However, impersonating the BW is almost equal to trying to look like an ordo which is what wolves do, anyway...

Originally Posted by Volo

since the Wolves aren't a threat to xim.

Ah but what happens if the wolves attack the BW? They will know who she is and should they choose so, they can join forces. Of course it's highly risky assuming the BW decides she has better chances if she plays for the village, but still... That's the ultimate worst-case scenario: three wolves, two cobblers and the BW all playing together.

For the record, I'm most likely not going to vote for Form or Volo today because it's ages since I played with them.

edit: xed with Nerwen & Zil. I read it the same way as Zil, although it did give me a moment's what the heck pause when I first read it.

[Pitchwife]

[IC]You folks all sound so dreadfully sober - have you all turned teatotallers or what? And with Barley's beer being the best on the East Road! Maybe a song will liven you up a bit...
*stands on table and sings to a well known, but barely recognizable tune*

There is an inn, a merry old inn,
with a hey dol derry dillo,
And there they brew a beer so brown
That the Man in the Moon himself came down
one night to drink his fill-o
And there he dozed and dreamed of ale,
the barmaid's bosom his pillow,
Till the landlord lifts his hand
Over snoring drunkards, broken mugs and beer-soaked ashtrays...

*looks sheepishly at the circle of serious, disapproving faces, mumbles something and climbs off the table to help himself to another pint*[/IC]

OK, to business. As for the cobblers, we've had this discussion any number of times, and the big problem is, as always, that it's not so easy to tell cobblerish evil from wolvish evil. TEW has a point that they would very likely prefer not to be lynched (or Night-killed*, for that matter) before they've had a chance to communicate, but then again, I think a good cobbler won't mind to be lynched in order to save who he thinks is a wolf, especially when there's two of them. On the wolves' side, we can't count on them being visibly protective of their packmates either - some will, others won't hesitate to bus one another, it really depends on the player. So the long and short of it is, if it looks suspicious, lynch it and we'll find out what it was.
(*Aside, does anybody else think that Boro included two cobblers in this game in order to increase the chance that at least one of them won't be eaten by the wolves?)

Now, Tom and the Barrow-Wight. I agree with Shasta and Nerwen that it'll be tricky to find the BW, so for the moment, leaving xem to Tom may be our best chance. If, however, we think we have a good idea who xe is, or if the Seer dreams xem and decides to reveal, I'm for getting rid of xem as soon as possible, rather than wait for Tom to get xem. According to the Rules, the stunning occurs at the beginning of the Night, so the BW can try to protect xemself by stunning Tom and work mischief for another Day; and unlike the Seer, Tom can't reveal - so if we're extremely unlucky, we might even mislynch Tom instead of the BW, and what then?

Another thing: I think at the beginning at least, while there's still three or two wolves, the BW is a bigger danger to us than to them: he can prevent our Seer and Ranger from helping us, but if he stuns a wolf, the rest will still get a Night-kill.
They'll want to get rid of him sooner or later, so that a lone wolf won't lose a kill by being stunned, but they'll probably want to keep him around for the first few Days (unless we get lucky and lynch some wolves rather soon). For this reason, I'm not at all comfortable with Lottie's suggestion to leave a suspected BW alive till next Day.

(x-ed with a lot)

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Suspected cobblers, yes. But I think we should wait a Day to let TB have a go at him overNight. That way, we have an extra lynch, and if xe is TBW, we have a freebie baddie gone.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Regarding TBW, who I can't say I'm surprised to find the talk of the Day: yes, it's not that important to get him at this stage.

Thing is, though, what do we all suppose to be the distinguishing features of Wightish evil, as opposed to the wolvish or cobblerish kind? Do we really think we could feel confident enough that a given player was displaying the first kind, rather than the second or third?

I agree with both of these. If we somehow figure out who the BW might be we should leave it to Tom, that is his purpose and then we won't lose the lynch. But the problem is figuring out who the BW is in the first place. See other roles we can figure out, Gifteds might leave hints to the village, Cobblers will leave hints for the wolves, Wolves will have connections to each other or just do things that seem ungenuine, there are ways to figure out who they are. But the BW isn't connected to anyone, and they don't have to leave hints for anybody, so essentially they will act the same way as an Ordo, they want all the Wolves dead anyway (though they also want all of us dead too eventually). They are almost completely unbiased so they will be hard to spot. Which leads me to this:

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Therefore I suggest that the one she stunned for the night says it out loud in the thread the next day, just to narrow down the field of possible BWs and make things easier for Tom/us.

Bad idea. First of all if he chooses an Ordo they won't know they were chosen since they don't have to do anything at Night, and basically if he chose a Gifted that's a Gifted revealing themselves (the Wolves will know they aren't one of them so they either have to be Ferny, Tom or one of the Gifteds). And a Wolf is unlikely to step forward and say it was them, that's too much attention on them.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Now that I think of it, there's actually a way we can know whom Tom chose... Only everybody should agree to it, otherwise it doesn't work.

At the moment Tom works alone, but it need not be so. We the village could decide by vote whom Tom tries to drive away. If the one who got the most votes (or, in case of a tie, reached the biggest number first/last) is still alive the next day, we know she isn't the BW.

Everyone should say what they think of it, and if even one person thinks it isn't a good idea, we don't do it (who knows, that person might be Tom himself).

Although hmm there are also a few problems. Firstly, the BW might have stunned Tom. Secondly, it doesn't tell us anything about the person's allegiance, only that she isn't the BW. Still, I think it's worth discussing.

I don't think this is a good idea either. I think we'll just end up wasting a bunch of time trying to find the BW when we should be focusing on the Wolves, and having to do a second set of votes will cause a lot of confusion. I think we should trust Tom with this, and even if we know that someone isn't the BW there are still alot of things they could be, so it really isn't worth taking so much time focusing on him.

So basically I think we should forget about him for the moment, if the Seer comes forward and know who he is then we should give Tom a chance to go for him so we don't waste a lynch, if Tom is dead or something then we definitely go after him, but until then it'll be really hard to figure out who the BW is, and we could end up wasting a lot of time on him (when the Wolves, and Cobblers even, are a bigger threat).

Now the Cobblers. Ferny has his special little power (did he get a spy last Night?) and will want to leave hints of some sort so that the Wolves don't kill him, and Goatleaf will want to leave hints so that the Wolves don't kill him and so that Ferny can find him. So if they get too obvious we might be able to spot them. And I think after the way the last game went it's agreed that if we have an idea who a Cobbler is, we lynch them, none of this let them be stuff. Oh, and no ordo should false reveal as a Gifted...just saying.

x'ed with a bunch

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Zil

I'd still wonder how we're to single out wightish behavior. The BW will have an interest in lying low and not attracting attention. And not being tied to a particular side will make it that much easier to do that.

Overall, I'd agree with those who say the BW should not be the first priority here. But as I said, if xe's outed by a Seer dream and we don't have a better choice, go for the lynch. Otherwise, leave it to Tom.

As I've mentioned (briefly anyways), TBW acts in the same fashion as the Werebear did, minus the killing. Having had personal experience as the Bear (and finally getting caught on Day 3 ), I can tell you now that in our case, we should not worry too much about TBW as of right now.

My reasoning? In games with the Bear, it is up to the innocents to find xem along with finding the Wolves. It's much more difficult, however, to catch the Bear as xey have no ties with anyone but themselves and wanting victory for xself. However, the difference for us in this game is that there is a role specifically designed to go after TBW, thus eliminating our need to worry about TBW for the time being. I'm not saying we should forget TBW altogether, but at least for now, let Tom be the one to worry about it. Even as it is, as an innocent, I'm not too worried about TBW as is. He will only affect those with Nightly abilities, which sucks for us if he happens to nail our Seer or Ranger.

I am much more inclined to agree with Greenie and say let's abandon the talk of TBW for now and concentrate on the Cobblers, which (especially after the last game ) pose a much bigger threat to us.

Originally Posted by Greenie

In the most fearsome scenario, Ferny finds out the identity of one or more wolves, and can relate the information to the other cobbler - and suddenly we have potentially as much as five baddies working together. It's also possible that Ferny never gets lucky and we have two more or less blind cobblers who can be just as mistaken about the identity of the wolves as the rest of us.

Indeed that would be a most devastating position for the village to be in if it so happens that Ferny does find the other one and has an idea of the Wolves.

Originally Posted by Agan

We the village could decide by vote whom Tom tries to drive away. If the one who got the most votes (or, in case of a tie, reached the biggest number first/last) is still alive the next day, we know she isn't the BW.

I was looking at this and I do like this plan. My only issue with it is, even the TBW is totally playing for himself, the Wolves might find a way of using it to their advantage. But on the flip side of that coin, there stands the chance that we could catch a Wolf trying to do just that.

Now, going back to the Cobbler issue, is there any way we could use Agan's little plan there to oust the Cobblers? I know it would be much more difficult seeing as there is no one at Night gunning for them.

I'm going to go wrack my brain some more and think of something.

PS: Sorry I'm all of the place with this, tired and trying to stay up for another five hours before bed and work again

EDIT: X'ed with Agan, Pitch and Vanilwamuffin

[Boromir88]

Mod note on Bombadil:

Sorry for the confusion in that first post. Tom is on the innocent team, his priority is the wight, but he also wants all evils gone from Bree. That note was intended to say Tom is included as an innocent and thus wants the village victory over both BW and the wolves.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

How can you people make such long posts already? It's qwight ridiculous. I can't think of any interesting points on rules and theory; all I can think about is lynching Kath.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I think a good cobbler won't mind to be lynched in order to save who he thinks is a wolf, especially when there's two of them. On the wolves' side, we can't count on them being visibly protective of their packmates either - some will, others won't hesitate to bus one another, it really depends on the player.

Exactly... and we can't count on the wolves to drop hints to the cobbler(s) because it's simply not worth it for them. Even though this game is different from many I've played in the sense that the cobbler(s) actually have a chance of finding the wolves without blatant hinting in the thread. Anyway if we want to find links, we should look into a dead cobbler's communication with other players, or how other players have talked to a dead wolf.

Aside, does anybody else think that Boro included two cobblers in this game in order to increase the chance that at least one of them won't be eaten by the wolves?

Hahaha!

If, however, we think we have a good idea who xe is, or if the Seer dreams xem and decides to reveal, I'm for getting rid of xem as soon as possible, rather than wait for Tom to get xem.

I agree, especially later in the game. Early on, yeah, I suppose we could afford to keep the BW alive for an extra day, but when most of us have died, it's simply too risky to give the BW a chance to join the wolves.

They'll want to get rid of him sooner or later, so that a lone wolf won't lose a kill by being stunned, but they'll probably want to keep him around for the first few Days

This is a very good point.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Bad idea. First of all if he chooses an Ordo they won't know they were chosen since they don't have to do anything at Night

Ah but they will. The ordo gets a PM that says she was stunned (see the rules). That's why telling it to the rest of us does no more than eliminate a potential BW, thus making it easier for Tom & us to find her.

and even if we know that someone isn't the BW there are still alot of things they could be, so it really isn't worth taking so much time focusing on him.

But if we let her go unnoticed and don't pay any attention to her whatsoever, it can backfire really badly later. Hmm why do I have a feeling I've talked of this before? Oh yes this is how I usually treat the cobbler!

I'm not saying the BW should be our priority and we need to worry about her more than about the wolves & cobblers, what I'm saying is that we shouldn't forget and ignore her just because she might choose to side with us or Tom might hit it right and kill her. We simply can't refuse to pay attention to an unknown factor like that.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, going back to the Cobbler issue, is there any way we could use Agan's little plan there to oust the Cobblers? I know it would be much more difficult seeing as there is no one at Night gunning for them.

What exactly do you mean?

Alrighty I'll be gone for a few hours.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Agan

I agree with this. If the Barrow-Wight isn't on our side, she's (potentially) against us, and I'd much rather we didn't have to worry about her in the later stages when it really matters whether she plays for us or for the wolves.

Agreed that who isn't with us is against us, but what exactly do two you mean with "the BW can even be really useful later on" (to whom?) and "whether she plays for us or for the wolves"? The BW's stunnings may happen to work in favour of one party now or the other next, but xe wins if xe's the sole survivor, so xe wants all of us dead in the long run.

As for Agan's idea to vote on who Tom goes after, I think it'll distract us too much from finding the wolves, even if we could rely on Tom picking the person we chose. As for the thing with the people who've been stunned coming out, the claims can't be verified (unless the narration would mention somehow who was stunned, which I don't remember reading anything in the rules about, and if it would, the coming out would be redundant).

(x-ed from #48 down)

[Formendacil]

Whoa!

Apparently the game has started.

However, it's a Day 1, so I don't feel all that terrible about letting it slip my mind--I also have substantial chunks of the Eastern Daylight savings Timezone afternoon to flit on and off this thread while I pretend to do homework.

In the meantime, though, I have errand-like things to run.

P.S. Eomer, dear, you can't kill BOTH Kath and me--not in the course of one day, anyway. How about you flip a coin for us--I'll be Heads.

[Glirdan]

Originally Posted by Agan

What exactly do you mean?

I knew I forgot to end that with a proper thought/idea.....yay for sleep deprivation....

Okay, so to continue my thought process on that, I was trying to figure out if there was anyway that we could use your voting plan to try help us oust the Cobblers, but now that I think about it, it would be quite redundant as we could just lynch cobblerish looking people.

And to clarify what I said about the 'no on at Night gunning for them' bit, I was referencing Tom and TBW. Seeing as at Night Tom is gunning for TBW and that's what your voting plan was based on, my idea to use it for the Cobblers is pretty much null and void.

EDIT: X'd with Formy

[Boromir88]

'Nother note on Bombadil, with regards to this part in the Admin thread...

Bombadil may be lynched or night-killed by the wolves and he may never reveal.

If Bombadil is killed, his role will be revealed to everyone. However, Bombadil himself, under no circumstances can reveal his role.

[Volo]

Yowiebowiedavidglowie!

Finally I'm home to concentrate on the game. Unfortunately I'll be needing my sleep and will probably quit in four or so hours.
I gave some more though to BW's role and motives. Although it has already been discussed for long lengths while I was absent and there has been a voice in favour of putting the discussion aside, I'll say what I think.
1. Contrary to Agan's idea of having a common vote for BW extermination, sponsored by TB, I think it will be more sensible to not to anger BW at Day. If BW is in danger of being lynched, xe will most likely start revealing things in favour of the Wolves, such as xis mildly educated hunches about the identities of the Gifted. As long as TB is alive, it is better not to make an open enemy out of BW. Ok, xe is be against us, and we against xim, but there is mutual benefit in not concentrating too much in the demise of the other party. Instead, the Wolves.
2. The BW needs to be the last wight standing, so it is in xis favour to keep at least one Wolf alive, for the game to progress faster. Now if(when) we manage to lynch two Wolves, BW will be quite the Cobbler, though not as self-sacrificing as one. At that point especially it would be beneficial not to have xim reveal what xe knows openly.
Thus I believe it is in favour of the innocents to leave BW to TB, for until we know of either's demise.

More thoughts on other subjects after I get myself something to eat.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Volo

If BW is in danger of being lynched, xe will most likely start revealing things in favour of the Wolves, such as xis mildly educated hunches about the identities of the Gifted. As long as TB is alive, it is better not to make an open enemy out of BW. Ok, xe is be against us, and we against xim, but there is mutual benefit in not concentrating too much in the demise of the other party.

How will the BW have these "educated hunches"? Xe will know who xe decided to stun, but not necessarily whether xe hit a wolf or a Gifted. How could xe know if xe hit the Seer and caused the loss of a dream, or caused Ferny to be unable to spy for the Night? The only concrete information the BW could get from xer stunning actions is if two wolves are gone already and there isn't a kill during a Night, meaning xe nailed the remaining wolf.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Oh well, have to leave now. I'll vote Aganzir simply due to the fact that she's posted so much when there's nothing to talk about yet. Trying to muddy the waters, obviously. Guilty as sin.

++ AGANZIR

[Boromir88]

Bolding votes is all that is required Eomer, not highlighting. But if you've already departed, as it is it'll count.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

How will the BW have these "educated hunches"? Xe will know who xe decided to stun, but not necessarily whether xe hit a wolf or a Gifted. How could xe know if xe hit the Seer and caused the loss of a dream, or caused Ferny to be unable to spy for the Night? The only concrete information the BW could get from xer stunning actions is if two wolves are gone already and there isn't a kill during a Night, meaning xe nailed the remaining wolf.

The hunches won't be much more educated than a basic Ordo's, but the ability to stun might give more insight, nothing certain, of course, but nevertheless, if we could kill a Cobbler quietly during the Night, it would surely be an advantage.

[Nogrod]

Kath posted on D1!!! Whoa!

Form said D1's are crap... a big surprise.


Anyway, I suggest we call off this discussion as to which baddie should be our priority to something like D3 or 4 when we might actually have a possibility of speculating whether X looks more wolfy, Y more B-Wightly and Z more cobblerish... Without any total blunders from their side we're going more or less on some general "bad hunches", at least toDay; that someone doesn't feel genuine, that someone is too excited / too reserved, that someone just doesn't sit right.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The only concrete information the BW could get from xer stunning actions is if two wolves are gone already and there isn't a kill during a Night, meaning xe nailed the remaining wolf.

Although if the ranger is alive she wouldn't know even that...

Which brings to my first worry of the Day. My Cobblerometer (TM) flashes red and is overheating with Aganzir.

She comes up with the idea that those who have been stunned should come forwards eg. the seer and the ranger should reveal? With innocents it would be a more delicate matter: on the one hand we'd get a "known innocent" - but on the other it would also tell TBW that she didn't get it right. But looking at the options and confusion that kind of deal would leave to the cobblers, but also to the wolves and gifteds - or even good thinking innocents (*rememberingSkip*) - I'd say we should be very careful in trying to establish any such "rules" among ourselves. A lot of confusion indeed - what a cobbler would love to see as that is their work-description.

Also the idea of making a vote on whom TB should go for - and the requirement of total consent that kind of arrangement needs to work - would mean hours and hours on focusing only on a) the suggestion, and b) on who the BW is - thus nicely blocking all the reasonable talk about the wolves which should be our top priority; for the time being (see what people have said about how hard it is to pin down a lone baddie with no ties to anyone).


So even if one can argue for the procedures Aganzir has made, they both require more or less common consent and would thus require more or less all our efforts. Meanwhile the wolves can just entertain themselves and take sides as they see fit because it's not talking about people but procedures. So Days wasted.


EDIT: X'd with Eomer, Boro and Volo

[wilwarin538]

One more question for the ModGod about the Barrow Wight.

Since he needs to be the last one standing, I'm just trying to figure out how that's possible. Like if he's left standing with a wolf and an ordo, and then they lynch the wolf, well it would be the BW and an ordo left and that's not him being the last standing, so does he win along with the village? Or if the ordo is lynched than it's the BW and the wolf left standing, so that's not him winning either, so how can he be alone at the end? Unless he just has to survive the whole game?

Originally Posted by Agan

Ah but they will. The ordo gets a PM that says she was stunned (see the rules). That's why telling it to the rest of us does no more than eliminate a potential BW, thus making it easier for Tom & us to find her.

I missed that. Still though, it would be very hard to be sure the person is even telling the truth, and what if the person he blocked is the one that gets night killed? Then the BW could just say he was the one who was blocked, no one would be around to refute it, and then Tom would never go for him. It just sounds like so many things could go crazy here.

x'ed with Noggins

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by wilwa

It just sounds like so many things could go crazy here.

Exactly. A wolf claiming she was stunned - should we think she is innocent? A cobbler claiming she was stunned - what does it tell us? A gifted telling she was stunned (trying to act like an ordo) - do we believe her, do the wolves wish to check her? A non-stunned innocent trying to save the Day says she was stunned - what do we learn from there? And what is the one who then possibly counter-reveals? Not to talk of the different settings those "revelations" and their counters would happen, giving new twists to them...

I mean there are so many scenarios my brain hurts already just thinking what they might be...

[Volo]

Noggie doesn't bother with pleasantries and joins the Day with quite harsh words indeed. I sort of agree with his point, an evil Agan could very well be so bold as to mislead the discussion with something like that. But let's not get too jumpy yet.

I myself got the bad vibe from Greenie. Her painting of the worst-case scenario felt somewhat... mischevious. Additionally Agan liking Greenie instead of finding her suspicious points to an abnormality. This is just a hunch and I'll add that I've found Greenie suspicious all the time after her first game in which she was Wolf. But what do you think?

[Glirdan]

I'm sorry guys, I can't stay up any longer. I'm exhausted and need sleep as I have to work again later tonight. I shouldn't be this bad for Day 2.

As for my vote...

++Wilwa

Because I can. Seriously. Just completely random.

Good night.

[Volo]

An hour of silence. What a bore. Would have said something myself, but having gone through the thread a few times in a non-cronological order, I have come to few new thoughts, most of which are better left unsaid.

If nothing happens in the next ten minutes I'll have to vote (both me and computer falling asleep), and the vote will be for Agan.

[A Little Green]

Right, I'm back. I'll be here for some time, but will (hopefully) make it to bed before DL - loads to do tomorrow.

First of all, I really don't like the votes this far. Day 1, for sure, but these two are ill-reasoned even for Day 1 votes. Eomer votes Agan with

Originally Posted by Eomer

Oh well, have to leave now. I'll vote Aganzir simply due to the fact that she's posted so much when there's nothing to talk about yet. Trying to muddy the waters, obviously. Guilty as sin.

Which strikes me as not serious - that sounds as if he wasn't even trying to get it right. The same goes, even to a fuller extent, for Glirdan, whose reason is as follows:

Originally Posted by Glirdy

Because I can. Seriously. Just completely random.

Seriously, guys, we can do better than that! Or should we adopt a strategy where everyone just votes randomly because it's Day 1 and nothing matters anyway? I'm not convinced Eomer and/or Glirdan are evil (not that I'm convinced of anything at this point), but a random vote on Day 1 is among the easiest things a baddie can do - a vote that can't really be called into question because it can be covered with "Hey, it was Day 1!"

Just in general, then - I'm *gasp* ok with Nogrod and got a vague bad feeling about Pitch's first post. Checked back and it's mostly just a feeling, accompanied maybe by this:

Another thing: I think at the beginning at least, while there's still three or two wolves, the BW is a bigger danger to us than to them: he can prevent our Seer and Ranger from helping us, but if he stuns a wolf, the rest will still get a Night-kill.
They'll want to get rid of him sooner or later, so that a lone wolf won't lose a kill by being stunned, but they'll probably want to keep him around for the first few Days (unless we get lucky and lynch some wolves rather soon). For this reason, I'm not at all comfortable with Lottie's suggestion to leave a suspected BW alive till next Day.

Don't know, there's something in the way he seems to have given much thought to how the BW situation looks from a wolf's point of view.

Originally Posted by Volo

I myself got the bad vibe from Greenie. Her painting of the worst-case scenario felt somewhat... mischevious.

Mischievous? It certainly wasn't meant to. I was trying to make sense to myself of how big a threat the cobblers represent, and thought to myself, "What is the worst that could happen?" as well as "What is the best that could happen?" - and from these to get something of an idea of the potential damage the cobblers can do. (Of course the real extreme good scenario would involve wolves killing both cobblers on Nights 2 and 3, but that seemed a bit too unlikely even to me..)


EDIT: x-ed with Vollo

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

what exactly do two you mean with "the BW can even be really useful later on" (to whom?) and "whether she plays for us or for the wolves"?

I can't naturally speak for Volo, but I see the BW as a possible extra cobbler. Maybe it's too rash of me to think she'd choose sides before the result of the game is certain, but she can a) try to stun a wolf, or b) try to stun an innocent. Or she might just have fun and stun whomever she wants, in which case she just brings more chaos into a game with already two cobblers.

Originally Posted by Volo

If BW is in danger of being lynched, xe will most likely start revealing things in favour of the Wolves, such as xis mildly educated hunches about the identities of the Gifted.

Where did that come from? I find it unlikely the BW can get any more information than the rest of us just from her stunning.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Oh well, have to leave now. I'll vote Aganzir simply due to the fact that she's posted so much when there's nothing to talk about yet. Trying to muddy the waters, obviously. Guilty as sin.

Eomer you're stupid! :-p

Originally Posted by Nogrod

My Cobblerometer (TM) flashes red and is overheating with Aganzir.

Awww Nog! This is so nostalgic. You never like anything I say, do you?

the seer and the ranger should reveal? --- but on the other it would also tell TBW that she didn't get it right.

What are you talking about? I fail to see how telling they were stunned would reveal the seer and the ranger. And who exactly is the BW supposed to be looking for? Revealing you've been stunned doesn't prove your innocence, it only proves you're not the BW. Also, I can't see why anybody would bother to claim falsely they were stunned - if more than one said it, fine, we'd know there was something rotten going on.
However, wilwa brought up a good point:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

what if the person he blocked is the one that gets night killed?

I hadn't even thought of it. It basically undermines my point, so yeah.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A wolf claiming she was stunned - should we think she is innocent? A cobbler claiming she was stunned - what does it tell us? A gifted telling she was stunned (trying to act like an ordo) - do we believe her, do the wolves wish to check her?

Nog have you (or I) misunderstood something or are we just on a totally different wavelength? Because I have no idea what you're talking about. Everybody can be stunned but the BW (although hmm I can't remember it being said anywhere that she can't stun herself).

Originally Posted by Volo

Additionally Agan liking Greenie instead of finding her suspicious points to an abnormality.

That's because it is abnormal.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Mischievous

Thanks for the correction.

I got a nastyish vibe from Pitchwife's first post's beginning, but later he felt Ok, Ok, Ok.

:/

Sorry, darling, I would have liked to hear more of your voice before
++Aganzir

Correction: I did hear your voice, and would have liked to think this over, but can't. Won't. vote. randomly. So. die. please.

[Pitchwife]

First impressions up to now:

1. INNOCENT
Mr Unculpable (that's me)

2. LOOKING GOOD
Shasta - his one post so far was fine and very reasonable, I'd like more of the same

3. LOOKING MOSTLY GOOD
Nerwen - mostly very reasonable, except her post about "how to get rid of Tom"; if that was a joke (as I think most probable, it can't really see her thinking that in earnest), it could have done with a smiley for disambiguation.
wilwa - agrees with Lottie on not 'wasting a lynch' on the BW (not good IMO); otherwise pretty reasonable and engaged, no wilwolf chirpyness (good)
Zil - is his usual laid back, reasonable and laconic self; don't trust him out of my eyesight, but more on general principles than because of anything really suspicious as of now.

4. LOOKING STILL SLIGHTLY MORE GOOD THAN BAD
Agan - is all over the place with plans and ideas which I don't find very helpful at all, interspersed with a lot of good points here & there; I wouldn't quite rule out the possibility of her being the cobbler, but mostly, she looks to me up to now more genuine and like an innocent doing some experimental thinking aloud than a baddie.
Nogrod - I agree with him about Agan's plans, not so sure I agree with his conclusions; and this

Originally Posted by Nog

She comes up with the idea that those who have been stunned should come forwards eg. the seer and the ranger should reveal?

is nonsense - like a gifted can't say "I was stunned last Night" without having to say "So I couldn't dream/protect"? Did he really not get that, or is he trying to make Agan's suggestion look worse than it already is? On the other hand, that's been the first reasoned suspicion of the Day, bonus points for that
Volo - I can't quite follow all of his thoughts about the BW, but he doesn't look too bad all in all; in any case I haven't played with him before, so bar any blatant wolvery he'll get a pass toDay

5. COULD GO EITHER WAY
Eomer - his behaviour and vote rather remind me of my Eo-packmate from a few games ago; problem is, they also remind me of an innocent Eomer I've played with before, so I don't really have a clue.
Greenie - wants to discuss cobblers rather than BW, which isn't necessarily evil per se, except it could be an attempt by a Little Green Wight to distract us from discussing her role with her worst-case scenario of five baddies working in team; good point about wolvish vs wightish knowledge & behaviour in #37, though.
TEW - protests his innocence a bit much indeed (btw, Shasta, it's 'thou dost', not 'you doth'); first says we should lynch all baddies (good), then flipflops and agrees with Lottie and Glirdan to leave the BW be (not good); some observations on BW, wolf and cobbler behaviour which I don't quite agree with, but don't look devious IMO.

6. LOOKING NOT SO GOOD
Glirdan - first (in chronological order) this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

After all, TBW is only really dangerous to our Seer and Ranger, and at the start of the game, xe is as blind to them as the rest of us. There is always the chance that xe gets one of them on sheer dumb luck, but that's a 1 in 16 shot, and if the Ranger is anywhere near as good as I was last game [ ] that won't be a problem.

'Only' dangerous to the best assets we have vs 3 wolves and 2 cobblers???
Second, I don't really get how we could use Agan's voting plan to 'oust the cobblers'. Confusing.
Third, his vote is plain nonsense (with all the discussion we've had toDay, you can't do better than a random vote?).

7. LOOKING FURRY/PEACHY/SKELETAL
Lottie - leave the BW alone if we have a chance to lynch xem? No, no, and no again, and I can't see an innocent suggesting that if she's thought out the ramifications; could well be the BW herself, or a cobbler or wolf trying to keep the BW around as long as xe won't prevent any Night-kills.

8. NO IDEA FOR LACK OF INPUT
Kath - exists and has posted, wow!
Form - hates Day 1, as susual; waiting for more
sally - nothing but early banter; has a cold, therefore excused for now

Conclusions (as of now, liable to be revised on further evidence):

WON'T VOTE FOR
Anybody from group 1-4 and 8

PROBABLY WON'T VOTE FOR
Group 5

MIGHT VOTE FOR
Group 6, i.e. Glirdan

WILL PROBABLY VOTE FOR
Group 7, i.e. Lottie


EDIT: x-ed from #64 down

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

At the moment Tom works alone, but it need not be so. We the village could decide by vote whom Tom tries to drive away. If the one who got the most votes (or, in case of a tie, reached the biggest number first/last) is still alive the next day, we know she isn't the BW.

Too many issues with this. Also, the BW is a she, are they? Good to know.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Ah but what happens if the wolves attack the BW? They will know who she is and should they choose so, they can join forces. Of course it's highly risky assuming the BW decides she has better chances if she plays for the village, but still... That's the ultimate worst-case scenario: three wolves, two cobblers and the BW all playing together.

Problems.

1. How will the BW know who the wolves are?
2. Why would they side with the wolves? If the wolves win, they'll gang up and kill the BW, because they'll know who is not one of them. That just doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

How can you people make such long posts already? It's qwight ridiculous. I can't think of any interesting points on rules and theory; all I can think about is lynching Kath. XP

This doesn't surprise me. Also, I't like to point out the "qwight" there. Because I can, basically, and because I fancy it.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

P.S. Eomer, dear, you can't kill BOTH Kath and me--not in the course of one day, anyway. How about you flip a coin for us--I'll be Heads.

He can if he's a wolf. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Volo

Noggie doesn't bother with pleasantries and joins the Day with quite harsh words indeed. I sort of agree with his point, an evil Agan could very well be so bold as to mislead the discussion with something like that. But let's not get too jumpy yet.

I myself got the bad vibe from Greenie. Her painting of the worst-case scenario felt somewhat... mischevious. Additionally Agan liking Greenie instead of finding her suspicious points to an abnormality. This is just a hunch and I'll add that I've found Greenie suspicious all the time after her first game in which she was Wolf. But what do you think?

I concur. It would be very like Agan to distract the village with a secondary plan of killing the BW in order to lessen the pressure on the wolves. I could totally see it.

I've not looked hard enough at Greenie (not really at all, in fact) to say anything either way. I'll hope to look at her toMorrow and see what I think of the post.


Okay, kids, I will NOT be back after this post, period. Too many errands to run after work and possibly lots of work to do this afternoon anyway. Thus, a vote.

++Agan

There's a chance her BW plan is actually innocent, but I don't think she would be thinking so far ahead as an ordo, and as a gifted (the seer at least) she would likely rather keep her head down and worry about finding the BW and exposing them herself. Thus, I don't think it's necessarily a completely evil scheme, but I think she wants to get rid of another opponent right off the bat, and since the BW doesn't pose much of a threat to the village right now, that leaves her as evil.

And now I have to go. Sorry for the lack of me. I'm trusting our beloved Boro to text me the lynch result, as I quite want to know what you get up to while I'm gone. Until toMorrow, comrades!


EDIT: x'd since Agan's last, and thus with Volo's vote. Seems like there'll be a wagon banding together. Hope it's a good one!

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

There's a chance her BW plan is actually innocent, but I don't think she would be thinking so far ahead as an ordo

What BW plan? As far as I know, I had two.

Not that it's probably going to make much of a difference to you, but I thought of the first one (revealing you've been stunned) before I got my role. Too bad I didn't apparently think it through, but there you have it.

1. How will the BW know who the wolves are?
2. Why would they side with the wolves? If the wolves win, they'll gang up and kill the BW, because they'll know who is not one of them. That just doesn't work.

1. If they're skillful, they have a way of letting her know. Something being unlikely or difficult doesn't make it impossible.
2. I might have misunderstood something, but I don't see why they couldn't win together. If the BW could only win with the village, why isn't she officially on our side?

I really don't like sally's vote and her reasons behind it. It's basically just repeating what others have said, and it doesn't even make sense.

[A Little Green]

Okay, looks like it's my bed-time. I was debating between Pitch (for a vague feeling from one post) and Glirdan (looking the worse out of the (semi-)random voters). Will vote for

++ Glirdan

Because I feel better voting with a reason than voting with a vague gut-feeling. So just to repeat what I said before: a random vote on Day 1 is not evil-looking because it's annoying (I don't vote for lynch because something is annoying, because annoying doesn't equal evil), but because it is an excellent cover for a wolf. It's an easy way to cover one Day's lynch, and no one can point out any flaws in the logic because there is no logic - and any criticisms can be answered with "It was Day 1, I had nothing better!" But the thing is, anyone has something better than totally random - except for those who know almost everyone's alignment already and don't actually have suspects at all, and have to make everything up (ergo the wolves). So, shortly, Glirdan's vote gave me the impression of a wolf looking for an easy pass through the first Day without getting his hands dirty.

Will try to get to bed now. Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with Pitch, Sally and Agan

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Nog have you (or I) misunderstood something or are we just on a totally different wavelength? Because I have no idea what you're talking about. Everybody can be stunned but the BW (although hmm I can't remember it being said anywhere that she can't stun herself).

Ok, I think I understand your point a bit better now (now that it was pointed out that the Ordos are told when they are stunned), it would not actually make it so that the Gifteds are revealing, since everyone can be stunned and all they would have to say is "I was stunned last Night", and it would narrow down the possibilities for who the BW is. But to do that we would have to assume that the Wolves and Cobblers are going along with this and would be coming forward if stunned, and that doesn't seem like something they'd want to do (I don't think cooperating with us is their main objective) and also what I said before, if the BW's target is also the Night kill then he can come forward as the person who was stunned, and there would be no way to check if he's telling the truth, and then we'd cross him off the list of BW suspects and that would be bad. So I see your point, that it could work, but I don't think we should do it, still a lot of things that can go wrong.

Like I said before, I say we let the BW be for now, since he has no connections to anyone it would be really hard to try and pick him out and we could really just end up wasting a lot of time trying to find him, when Wolves should always be our priority. Let's leave it to Tom and hope he gets lucky (or we get lucky), until we have more information on a later Day.

So I don't actually think Agan is all that suspicious, I think she just has a very different way of looking at things, and she wasn't saying the Gifteds should reveal like Nog was saying (and that I initially thought), she seems to just be trying to figure out a way we can get some sort of advantage over this strange new role.

Now Glirdypie looked bad to me before that crazy vote (the randomness of it, not just cause it was for me, though him being my BFF and all, that does hurt ), I don't get why he thought Agan's idea had anything to do with the Cobblers, perhaps he's a Cobbler getting a bit paranoid? I don't know, he just seems all over the place and I don't really understand what he's talking about, seems very nervous to me.

And it seems that some people are disagreeing with Lottie's idea about leaving the BW alone for Tom to get him. I don't completely understand why, since letting Tom do his job would actually help us save a lynch for someone else, rather than wasting a lynch and wasting Tom's ability. Yes, that same Night the BW could stun someone important, or stun Tom himself, but in that case we'd just lynch the BW the next Day and we wouldn't be that much further behind. Getting the extra lynch oppurtunity seems worth it to me. Of course if this is late in the game with fewer players (when the BW is more likely to stun someone important) than I would say no, we should lynch him immediately, but if the Seer was to come out toMorrow and reveal the BW, it would be a safe time to just leave it to Tom. I don't think Lottie's suggestion is all that bad.

x'ed with Sally, Agan and Greenie

[A Little Green]

A few quick comments before bed.. (Ouch, I'm starting to sound like my dad )

Pitch's post I crossed with made me feel loads better about him. (Plus I'm impressed by how many reasoned opinions he can have at this point!) Good I didn't end up voting him. Still keeping an eye open though, we all know how agreeable he can be

I don't like the Agan-wagan (no sorry, wagon, couldn't resist). Eomer's vote like I've said before was bantery; Volo's reasoning I'm not sure I understand at all, and Sally's looks - bandwaggonish. I'm really torn about Agan, for the most part she's been stirring up discussion and coming up with all kinds of plans, could be a bold Aganwolf attempting to lead and manipulate us, could just as well be an innocent Agan trying actively to make strategies that would benefit us. So, in sum, I haven't seen anything from her that would strongly point either way, which is why I don't think she's our worst option toDay (apart from the fact that she hasn't played in a long while), but certainly not the best, either: I think we have better candidates.


EDIT: x-ed with Wilwa - stop x-posting with me guys, I'm trying to leave!

[Inziladun]

At work and about to leave the office for a bit, but a few thoughts first.

The growing bandwagon against Agan makes me uneasy. I wasn't much impressed with her plan to "vote" for the BW, but she herself didn't seem to push it that hard. More like just sounding out ideas. Now, I know she's a joyfully effective Cobbler , but it seems funny how so many jumped on after Eomer gave her the first vote (which was not well reasoned at all).

Volo hasn't played in a long time, so it would feel somewhat unsporting to vote for him on Day 1. However, he looks rather shifty to me at this point.

Originally Posted by Volo

Contrary to Agan's idea of having a common vote for BW extermination, sponsored by TB, I think it will be more sensible to not to anger BW at Day. If BW is in danger of being lynched, xe will most likely start revealing things in favour of the Wolves, such as xis mildly educated hunches about the identities of the Gifted.

No mention there of thinking Agan is suspicious because of the plan, just a disagreement with it.

Eomer voted Agan, then Nog came out saying his "Cobblerometer (TM) flashes red and is overheating with Aganzir."

Originally Posted by Volo

Noggie doesn't bother with pleasantries and joins the Day with quite harsh words indeed. I sort of agree with his point, an evil Agan could very well be so bold as to mislead the discussion with something like that. But let's not get too jumpy yet.

I myself got the bad vibe from Greenie. Her painting of the worst-case scenario felt somewhat... mischevious. Additionally Agan liking Greenie instead of finding her suspicious points to an abnormality. This is just a hunch and I'll add that I've found Greenie suspicious all the time after her first game in which she was Wolf. But what do you think?

So, Volo picks up the suspicion on Agan, though he also says he didn't like Greenie painting the "worst-case scenario".

Then:

Originally Posted by Volo

An hour of silence. What a bore. Would have said something myself, but having gone through the thread a few times in a non-cronological order, I have come to few new thoughts, most of which are better left unsaid.

If nothing happens in the next ten minutes I'll have to vote (both me and computer falling asleep), and the vote will be for Agan.

And a vote for Agan, followed by Sally doing the same thing.

No sir, I don't like it.

x/d with the previous four

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

And who exactly is the BW supposed to be looking for? Revealing you've been stunned doesn't prove your innocence, it only proves you're not the BW. Also, I can't see why anybody would bother to claim falsely they were stunned - if more than one said it, fine, we'd know there was something rotten going on.

Originally Posted by Agan

Nog have you (or I) misunderstood something or are we just on a totally different wavelength? Because I have no idea what you're talking about. Everybody can be stunned but the BW

Aganzir: actually my post you quoted there makes the same point I have bolded from your post: that revealing will only mean confusion and opportunities especially for the cobblers to toy with.

Originally Posted by Agan #32

However, she can do much more damage to us than to the evil side - blocking the seer or the ranger is more serious for us than excluding a wolf from communication with her pack or stopping Ferny from spying is for them. Therefore I suggest that the one she stunned for the night says it out loud in the thread the next day, just to narrow down the field of possible BWs and make things easier for Tom/us.

Okay. The bolded parts were those I was thinking when reading through the thread... I can see you are not exactly saying there that the gifteds should reveal... but on the first read it did look like it ("therefore"). But that's the least interesting thing, as I said already before that one could argue for the suggestions you've made.



My main suspicion of you Agan is still this: you've tried it now two times - more or less succesfully - to make us discuss other things than who the wolves are.

Your plan of "let's discuss who the BW is and then let's discuss would everyone vote in a separate vote for the BW so that TB could pick the target, and to check it ther next Day, But aww, what would be the downsides of that kind of a deal be......." didn't quite catch up as only a few commented on it basically saying "let's not waste time on that" (I'll be thinking those people both level-headed and more innocent than not).

But your other plan of whether those stunned by Night should reveal has made it better and we have been talking about it considerably, aka. not trying to find the wolves (like I'm now losing my time answering your plan and what you have said about it Although I can say I'm not only discussing your plan but showing why I think it looks like having bad intentions behind it.), but finding the result that it would be a total mess...

EDIT: X'd with a host of posting...

[Aganzir]

GUILTY
sally. I read her post and was like, "What. The. Heck?" As I said, she basically repeats what has been said about me, and votes for me because "I can see an evil her doing what she did." She has played with me enough times to know me better. Also, she claims I only want to get rid of the BW. That's utter nonsense - my opinion is that we shouldn't ignore her, it's not the same as making lynching her our primary goal.
Glirdan. Seems kind of easy-going. I don't know what to think of his being the only one to like my BW voting plan (in hindsight I agree it'd probably be too confusing); when most people seem to say it's problematic, it would probably make sense for a baddie to try to back it up. And I agree with Greenie on random votes.
Volo. I still don't understand why he thinks the BW could reveal stuff about gifteds if threatened with a lynch. I'm probably not the right person to say anything about this, but I'm also a bit worried about how much he seems to concentrate on the BW. Also, he only suspects Greenie but votes for me (when I already have a vote).

INNOCENT
Greenie. I mostly agree with her and she looks normal (as opposed to a statue, I mean, forced - sorry ).
Pitch. Makes more sense than most others (especially his points about the BW are good) and looks innocentish.
wilwa. I thought her initial reaction to my BW suggestions was really suspicious, but then she brought up the possibility of the stunned having died in the night. Now she looks more innocent than guilty.
EW. Hasn't said enough for me to form a solid opinion, but seems more innocent than guilty.

EITHER
Inzil. I like that he pointed out that a cobbler shouldn't be ignored - but then again, that seems to be the modus operandi after last game. Apart from that, I don't have anything about him.
Lottie. I don't really like her insistence that we shouldn't try to lynch the BW. Pitch has a good point against her, but I haven't seen enough from her (apart from BW talk) to have a real opinion.
Nog. Misunderstands me so badly I'm half tempted to think it's intentional... but then, Nog and I have a history of disagreeing. His main points against me are based on the said misunderstanding, and the rest of his points look exaggerated as if he was just trying to put me in a bad light. However, I'll abstain from further comments till he's back and has explained himself.

The rest haven't said enough for me to form a solid opinion on them. However I'm going to kill Eomer if I end up being lynched.

[Formendacil]

Definitely having troubles motivating myself to call someone guilty toDay--if I may speak ill to the dead, this is what you get, Master Modgod.

The Aganwaggon is mildly appealing, but mostly because it's reacting to a vibrant player on Day 1, rather than inane suspicion. However, it is Day 1, and I can't, in good conscience as an apparently silent player, assist in killing a vibrant player because of vibrancy. I suppose I could always vote Eomer for wanting me dead, but that'd be unsporting...

Bah... any volunteers for lynching--preferably of the lupine, cobbleresque, or wighty variety?

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Just in general, then - I'm *gasp* ok with Nogrod

Now that's abnormal - and you don't mind the holes in his arguments against Agan's plans which she, me and yourself have pointed out? (note that I do disagree with her plans, I only think they've got enough faults without construing ones that aren't there)
[QUOTE=Greenie]and got a vague bad feeling about Pitch's first post. Checked back and it's mostly just a feeling, accompanied maybe by this:

Don't know, there's something in the way he seems to have given much thought to how the BW situation looks from a wolf's point of view.

*sigh*It's just my way - I like to think things through, regardless of my role, and when I'm innocent, I try to put myself in the wolves' fur and imagine how they would react to a given situation in order to better figure them out. But I do the same when I'm a wolf, and sally once pinned a Pitchwolf based on that, so I see where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by sally

If the wolves win, they'll gang up and kill the BW

They can't (see the rules). They can only try to get xem lynched.

Originally Posted by sally re Eomer

This doesn't surprise me. Also, I't like to point out the "qwight" there. Because I can, basically, and because I fancy it.

Yeah, he's been making a lot of these puns ('barrowing' for borrowing, etc.). But he enjoys confusing us, and he won't start making sense before Day 2 at the earliest.

I don't really know what to think this incipient Agan bandwagon. Again, it's not impossible that she's a cobbler or a cobblerish-acting wolf (definitely not the BW though, she's been giving far too much thought to how to exterminate xem), but it's far from conclusive in my eyes. OK, this is Day 1 and all that, but I'd still like better evidence.

(x-ed from #70 down)

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

and this is nonsense - like a gifted can't say "I was stunned last Night" without having to say "So I couldn't dream/protect"? Did he really not get that, or is he trying to make Agan's suggestion look worse than it already is?

Think of yourself as a gifted in a game and learn you were stunned - so someone was already after you! Would you like to bring yourself to the spotlight the next Day calling "hey, it was me the BW picked! Probably for no reason, we must have a reaally bad BW choosing an innocent like that!"

About the BW and the wolves "joining forces" - what are their chances of doing it and their willingness to do it? BW needs kills happening as fast as they can, so she would love to pick the ranger - but she might be happy if the seer gets a wolf or two (so not happy to stun the seer)? Then again the wolves would love to see the BW stun the ranger and the seer as many times as possible, but they'd have to make us lynch her sooner or later.

So I think there is an unworded truce between the two sides now as in the beginning their aspirations do meet. But the going will get rough between them thel ess people there are - especially if the number of wolves gets down early on.

The problem to them is I think this: in the beginning they might wish to co-operate, but there's little to go on finding the other side - in the endgame there might be chances of locating the other side, but then they are already deadly enemies...

Originally Posted by Agan

2. I might have misunderstood something, but I don't see why they couldn't win together. If the BW could only win with the village, why isn't she officially on our side?

Wasn't it said the BW is like a werebear, a team of her own?

Bah, you guys keep posting too fast...

[Boromir88]

On the B-W's stunning...

The night narrations will not reveal who was picked by the B-W. Basically a PM goes to the person stunned, saying they are stunned and if they have any night activities they are blocked from doing it. Anyone may say they were picked by the B-W, but I should remind that quoting the PM to "prove it" is forbidden.

And to the question on how the B-W wins...

I originally thought if no more wolves remain the B-W would still just continue stunning at night and then lynch people during the day. However, this may unecessarily drag out the game, so after some Modly deliberation. If no more wolves remain, the B-W's powers increase and instead of just being stunned at night, the person is stone-cold dead. Final decision.