May contain adult scenes....

[Lush]

"...The saddest thing that I'd ever seen
Were smokers outside the hospital doors."

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by davem

Nope, this is a moral crusade against a smelly habit, which is no worse than many other human follies & foibles, & merely confirms to me only that the human race has lost its wits as well as its moral compass.

I still maintain that it isn't mainly a moral issue but an economical one. The elected governments in our more or less transparent democratic systems do not really separate between morals and laws. That which is legal is ok, that which isn't is not, simple as. Only when the ban is in place we can talk about moral crusades originating from the state, such is the case when it comes to illegal drugs. In this area all the busy-bodies have a license to condemn, chastise and punish, and gladly uses it whether it's useful or not.

It's a question of utility really. In contrast to many of the examples that have been brought up, smoking has little or no positive societal influence, well, apart from tax revenues. Then again the damages it causes and the health-care costs that follow probably out-weights this advantage too (unless killing off the retired and unproductive balances the equation out again). The sort of general consensus these days is that not even the smokers themselves actually want to smoke, and that the state would be doing them a favour stopping them. Even if this isn't true, the perceived pleasure individual users get from smoking is hardly considered in these equations.

Motor-traffic is obviously dangerous and polluting, but without it the national economy would suffer greatly, so that we can't get rid of. We tax it heavily though to keep people from driving too much and for a good, steady source of tax revenue.

Sex? Well, it's all good, isn't it? Guns and violence? They too have redeeming qualities with the army and the police making what they claim to be justified use of them.

But smoking? Nah, if the government could just snap their fingers and make it all go away, they would I'm sure. It's a matter of maximizing utility. Smoking is harmful with no redeeming qualities (from a societal point of view) and therefore unwanted. It's just that the smokers are still a minority large enough to be influential (but for how long?), and furthermore, a total ban would just open up the floodgates for organized crime as it did when other drugs were banned. So it's better for the state just to slowly stifle this unwanted activity with propaganda, taxes and regulations. I maintain it has little to do with morals.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I maintain it has little to do with morals.

As long as it has to do with Middle-earth...

Please do stay on topic, people!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, as someone who has smoked pipe, cigarettes & cigars in the past

Would you agree that pipes, as seen in the movies that we're discussing, have the least 'offensiveness?' They all create smoke, but even as a nonsmoker I find pipe smoke less annoying, plus there's the lack of the non-decaying filter thing, meaning that at the end of smoking a pipe, all you have is ash (I assume).

(stopping when my little boy made his appearance)

Excellent!

I have never driven a car, preferring either bus, train or 'Shank's pony'. Hence, I like to think I can take the role of disinterested party on this subject. Other people's smoke is bad, & they should keep it to themselves. But they should also keep their music (particularly the horrid little 'tss- tss' of their Ipods), their BO, & their exhaust fumes (which are much more dangerous than second hand tobacco smoke - would you prefer to be locked in a sealed room with a running car or with a smoker puffing away?).

Depends on the size of the 'combustion' engine, whether mechanical or organic. But much agreed.

Point is, there are lots of things people do which impinge on others, & which are to some degree unpleasant, but we are human beings, flawed, fallen & mostly bloody annoying even (or ironically, especially) when we're trying our best not to be. Smoking, it seems to me, is kept legal by the government 'cos they make lots 'n' lots of money out of it, & gives non-smokers a group they can look down on, & complain about.

Agreed.

One issue is that I can indulge in my vices - cheeseburger-flavoured double fried donuts topped with real bacon, washed down with 64 oz of overpriced (but fair traded) coffee - and no one has to share in the experience...unless they can't help staring. With smoking, it's much harder to keep it to oneself. It's not only the smoke, but the lingering residue as well.

As to the 'addicts' standing outside in the rain & snow puffing away,

Note that I was making the point that, not only is nicotine addictive, people also have developed ways of getting their fixes despite adverse conditions. You won't see me out in the cold looking for a donut shop. Also, as a nonsmoker, I see it as somewhat odd that you would stand around with a bunch of people with whom you share just that one thing - cigarettes. Obviously I take breaks when working, but the smokers in the building take breaks in groups, as I guess that it's more fun to puff with company - I just don't get it.

Surely some anthropologist has done a study.

Smoking is one of many dirty, unhealthy & annoying habits human beings indulge in & the real puzzle for me is why its become seen as a 'moral' issue.

As you say, it's the one unforgivable sin. We can find compassion for other 'wrongdoers,' as long as they're not smokers.

I honestly don't see how anyone who drives a car regularly can complain about smokers producing smells, carcinogenic fumes, or being a danger to themselves & others - & if we're talking about damage to the environment I don't think the smokers are the ones posing the risk.

You obviously need more practice with being a hypocrite. But note that as *they* are after tobacco, they are also after my car.

What I find funny is the coupling of cigarette sales with gas (petrol) stations. Okay, so most don't light up when they are actually pumping the highly combustible fluid into their vehicles, but they light up right around the place...

That said, of course, there are those who indulge in both pastimes so I'm sure my argument collapses in some way right there. I note that Tolkien gave up his car but kept his pipe, & personally I think he was right.

If only we had the transportation systems you 'cousins' have...and *someone* has to burn up all of the remaining fossil fuels.

Nope, this is a moral crusade against a smelly habit, which is no worse than many other human follies & foibles, & merely confirms to me only that the human race has lost its wits as well as its moral compass.

Agreed. There is so many other things wrong with the world, like starving children. Think that Tolkien has his hobbits tell it right - there are those that just can't help but mind everyone else's business, and even Peter Jackson has his version of Saruman monologuing about 'order' and yet Merry and Pippin find barrels of pipeweed in the flood.

Do as I say, not as I do.

Originally Posted by Lush

"...The saddest thing that I'd ever seen
Were smokers outside the hospital doors."

Nope. It's the women outside the local maternity hospital, in those tie-back gowns, obviously just minutes/hours away from giving birth, still puffing away.

[Lush]

Maternity ward is part of a hospital, innit?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lush

Maternity ward is part of a hospital, innit?

Sorry; not sure what to call it. The place, where three of my four were hatched, is like a big baby extraction factory. They also do a few other things, specializing in women's issues.

[Lush]

Esty's going to whack me over the head in a minute, but a maternity ward certainly qualifies as a hospital facility. Hence that Editors' lyric I quoted is totally applicable to your conception of the saddest thing, because pregnant women about to give birth and smoking outside would certainly fall under the rubric of "smokers outside the hospital doors."

Honestly, folks up in Liverpool should go ahead and ban that song too, while they're at it. It certainly a sad song, but it has such an attractive pathos to it. You know the young 'uns will be smoking just to make Editors' frontman Tom Smith get all weepy and stuff.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lush

Honestly, folks up in Liverpool should go ahead and ban that song too, while they're at it. It certainly a sad song, but it has such an attractive pathos to it. You know the young 'uns will be smoking just to make Editors' frontman Tom Smith get all weepy and stuff.

Maybe they should ban TH & LotR from the children's section of the Library, too? Isn't reading about adults smoking as bad as seeing it on screen? Or maybe those references could just be quietly excised? Or maybe that's the plan - first the films, then the books - & we all know the argument: If banning 'x' can protect even one child..... I'm always wary of people who wan to ban things for other peoples' own good, because while they may start off wanting to ban things which genuinely are dangerous, they usually get a taste for banning things, & before you know where you are they're banning anything & everything 'just in case' & you end up at the stage where anything not compulsory is banned.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

I'm always wary of people who wan to ban things for other peoples' own good, because while they may start off wanting to ban things which genuinely are dangerous, they usually get a taste for banning things, & before you know where you are they're banning anything & everything 'just in case' & you end up at the stage where anything not compulsory is banned.

Yep. Just like in Lotho's Shire. And look then how easy it was for Sharkey to replace the Chief, taking things from bad to worse.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

Yep. Just like in Lotho's Shire. And look then how easy it was for Sharkey to replace the Chief, taking things from bad to worse.

Excellent segue back to Middle-earth, Al.

One would think that Tolkien, based on his lifelong smoking and drinking proclivities, would consider the ban nonsense. I concur.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Excellent segue back to Middle-earth, Al.

Thanks. I too fear the coming of the chat-skwerlz.

One would think that Tolkien, based on his lifelong smoking and drinking proclivities, would consider the ban nonsense. I concur.

But is this due to his usage, or would it be due to some other reason, like his experiencing the war, where afterwards he may have thought, "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die"?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

But is this due to his usage, or would it be due to some other reason, like his experiencing the war, where afterwards he may have thought, "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die"?

I'd lay it more at the era in which he lived. If the Shire was based on the rural England he knew, smoking and having a few well-earned pints at the local inn couldn't help being a popular pastime.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Thanks. I too fear the coming of the chat-skwerlz.


But is this due to his usage, or would it be due to some other reason, like his experiencing the war, where afterwards he may have thought, "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die"?

I suspect it was simply that his generation had more important things to worry about. And one could add that

If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.

[Son of Númenor]

Originally Posted by Lush

everyone knows that young adults simply mindlessly replicate whatever it is they see on a large enough screen.

For the sake of argument: there was a time when I was heavily influenced by what I saw the admirable protagonists of films doing; and seeing hobbits smoking pipe-weed could foster a mental connection between the enjoyment of an idyllic setting with the recreational use of tobacco.

Yet this calls to mind the adage

"The law is a ***, a idiot" (Dickens)

because the law in this case has no sensory apparatus to judge context. It can only see 1s and 0s.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

I know you're being facetious, but for the sake of argument:

I like a good argument, for goodness sakes...

there was a time when I was heavily influenced by what I saw the admirable protagonists of films doing; and seeing hobbits smoking pipe-weed could foster a mental connection between the enjoyment of an idyllic setting with the recreational use of tobacco.

But why limit it to that *one* specific scene? What of the poor table manners of Denethor, to say nothing of all of the killing? What of Gimli's overall behavior, and more specifically, his binge drinking? Boromir and Faramir make light of drinking ale, Merry and Pippin overeat and Aragorn's much too at home in Arwen's rooms...and they're not even married!

Anyway, for me, it was the TV movie, "V" that made me want to be a scientist, so that, when the aliens land, I'd be on to their reptilian ways.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

But why limit it to that *one* specific scene? What of the poor table manners of Denethor, to say nothing of all of the killing? What of Gimli's overall behavior, and more specifically, his binge drinking?

Speaking of Gimli, the films' glorification of dwarf-tossing has, I'm sure, led to a surge in the number of confirmed cases of that phenomenon. PJ is the enemy of civilisation!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

PJ is the enemy of civilisation!

I've always asked why we deserved this punishment...

[Lush]

Action movies have influenced me in curious & disturbing ways...

But the thing is - this doesn't just go for films. It goes for your parents, your friends, the people you see walking around on the street outside. At one point, such laws just veer off into absurdity, never to recover.

[Bêthberry]

I'm actually rather pleased to hear of such bans.

Mostly these days books and movies are regarded as insignificant or frivilous, all well and good to teach kiddies how to read and cypher in school, but best put away with the toys once one attains adulthood.

So, here is a group of concerned legislators--poets even if they are right about art -- who are worried that art might actually have some significant influence on minds. Scary thing!

Give me the censors any day over the naysayers.

Originally Posted by alatar

Anyway, for me, it was the TV movie, "V" that made me want to be a scientist, so that, when the aliens land, I'd be on to their reptilian ways.

Let's imagine just what influence a movie like "District 9" would have! And there's another PJ reference for this thread, to make this post slightly attenuated towards Tolkien.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm actually rather pleased to hear of such bans.

So, here is a group of concerned legislators--poets even if they are right about art -- who are worried that art might actually have some significant influence on minds. Scary thing!

We must live in a different world. Legislatures in this part of it seem to think that all evil comes directly from Hollywood.. except for campaign donations, that is.

Give me the censors any day over the naysayers.

Not sure what you mean, unless you are indicating that resistance to art will make it stronger.

Let's imagine just what influence a movie like "District 9" would have! And there's another PJ reference for this thread, to make this post slightly attenuated towards Tolkien.

Who's PJ?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by alatar

We must live in a different world. Legislatures in this part of it seem to think that all evil comes directly from Hollywood.. except for campaign donations, that is.

Not sure what you mean, unless you are indicating that resistance to art will make it stronger.

I'd much rather have it feared than ignored as then the opportunity may provide occasion for public discussion of the role and nature of art in society. I wonder if any Liverpudlians made any protests to their counsil? Were there long lines of Middle-earth-clad fans protesting by lighting up outside the counsil chambers? Sadly, I bet not.

Note that I assume civil discourse is possible in the public sphere. I believe it was in The Shire, although possibly less so in Rohan and Gondor.

Who's PJ?

Pajama Man

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'd much rather have it feared than ignored as then the opportunity may provide occasion for public discussion of the role and nature of art in society. I wonder if any Liverpudlians made any protests to their counsil? Were there long lines of Middle-earth-clad fans protesting by lighting up outside the counsil chambers? Sadly, I bet not.

There've been protests, but not via Middle Earthians, as this is a broader issue and not limited just to one movie. Currently in the news there is a movement against another movie that involved a more adult topic.

Note that I assume civil discourse is possible in the public sphere. I believe it was in The Shire, although possibly less so in Rohan and Gondor.

It's possible, though not probable. If 'sense' ruled the day, we wouldn't have anything to 'discourse' about, as the limits would be obvious, and nobody would care the Bilbo and Gandalf light up.

[Galadriel]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hmm,

pipe-smoking obviously dangerous to depict on film, but beheadings and mutilation are apparently fine.

The Scouser councillors would do better spending their time down in Toxteth stopping kids illegally buying fags and drugs and booze I reckon.

Lol. The gore in the movies was nothing compared to the books. Remember that scene in RotK where they cut off the soldiers' heads and catapulted them back into Minas Tirith? But yeah, this smoking thing seems a bit ridiculous.