Why did Gandalf save Faramir?

[Elmo]

In the Return of the King Gandalf himself said that by him saving Farimir many more would die on the Pelennor. Why did he do it then? Did he think the life of Farimir was worth more then the all the 'commoners' that Gandalf could have saved? Its not like that saving Farimir would have helped with the War of the Ring Farimir did nothing to help that after he was almost killed by his father.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Without Faramir, Gondor would have been rulerless after Denethor's death. Faramir was needed to acknowledge Aragorn as king in the name of the people of his city. Without that legitimation, it would have been much more difficult for Aragorn to be accepted. After so many centuries of rule by the Stewards, the Gondorians might not readily have adjusted to the idea of a stranger (to them) taking over their city and country.

[Břicho]

Well, I guess I'm going to have to beg to differ.
I think it was more than politics; it was an evil that no one else could have averted but Gandalf. Since there was no one else to save him, Gandalf had to do it. Unlike Theoden or Halbarad, Faramir couldn't defend himself.

Beregond would have gone down sooner or later, and he had already killed men(who were arguably also innocent.) Gandalf was faced with a moral decision: help out in the battle and let an innocent man be murdered; or save Faramir knowing that his efforts would be missed in the battle. The battle was going to happen no matter what and people were going to die; but the "other battle" was maybe a greater evil: it had innocent soldiers killing innocent soldiers, "tangled in a web of conflicting oaths..." And an innocent man about to be murdered because of madness.

[Boromir88]

Bricho and Esty both bring up two good points. As I'm sure it wasn't just for one soul purpose. There were several reasons for Gandalf to save Faramir's life over helping out in battle.

Esty talks about one of them. After Denethor's death Gondor was sucked into a political vaccuum, just imagine what the soldiers had been going through? I mean they see their great captain and Denethor's heir (Faramir) brought into the gates severely wounded. Denethor refuses to step out of his hall and lead him Men as he is asked this very thing:

'The first circle of the City is burning, lord,' they said. 'What are your commands? You are still the Lord and Steward? Not all will follow Minthrandir. Men are flying from the walls and leaving them unmanned.'

'Why? Why do the fools fly?' said Denethor. 'Better to burn sooner than late, for burn we must. Go back to your bonfire! And I? I will go now to my pyre...~The Siege of Gondor

When Denethor showed no intention on stepping out and leading his men Gandalf assumed command of the City. When Gandalf had to later attend other business he places Imrahil in charge. Then after the battle, after Denethor's death, Faramir is the Steward of the City, but he's still sick and is in no health to rule, so again Imrahil is given temporary Stewardship until Faramir is better.

So there were definitely political reasons, as Denethor's death (and even before his death as he refused to provide leadership), caused a big political vaccuum in Gondor. For Faramir to die along with him would be even a bigger vaccuum.

Despite all that, I agree with Bricho that it wasn't all about politics. First I'd like to say it's not that Gandalf chose Faramir over Theoden...Gandalf had no clue Theoden was going to die...he just knew if he saved Faramir than many more would also die. But we're talking about a war here, many more are already dying. At least everyone in War expect that they may not make it through. With Faramir's life on the line, Denethor had no right to take it. Here's what Denethor says about him burning himself and Faramir:

'To my pyre! No tomb for Denethor and Faramir. No tomb! No long slow sleep of death embalmed. We will burn like the heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!'~The Siege of Gondor

Now we aren't sure exactly who Denethor is talking about here as the 'heathen kings.' But as silly as a concept as it sounds, the Numenorean Kings had the power to command their own day of death. They were allowed willingly to decide when they wanted to die (as we see Aragorn does). According to Denethor he has this right to command when he dies, as well as when Faramir dies, but as Gandalf points out he does not:

'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under teh domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'~The Pyre of Denethor

Here we see heathen kings again, and according to Gandalf these were King's under the 'Dark Power' who committed murder. Therefor, this is not Denethor rightfully ordering the hour of his own death and taking that of his sons. This is Denethor, who has no authority to order when he dies, and certainly no authority to commit murder.

Just as a point of interest, Gandalf says the heathen Kings slew themselves and their sons in 'pride and despair,'...hmm it's interesting that Tolkien applies these two words to Denethor:

Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair...~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion; The Stewards

Not only was it political, but I think Gandalf thinks of it as a moral obligation. Gandalf, I've always seen as the top of the moral ladder, he is the one that is there to point people in the right direction when they go astray. As some examples, when Frodo wishes Bilbo killed Gollum, Gandalf instructs Frodo about the importance of Pity and Mercy. It is that very Pity and Mercy that made the quest succeed and Frodo's life was spared. When Aragorn proudly goes up to the hall of Theoden and tells Hama he is Elendil's heir and he should have power over Theoden's orders. Gandalf holds Aragorn and tells him a King will have his own way in his own hall. So Gandalf has always been also this figure of justice, and this moral compass. Therefor, I believe Gandalf found it his moral obligation to try to save a life that was about to be wrongfully taken, over those who had through free will gone into battle.

[MatthewM]

I like what Bricho has to say here. I think the decision was more than political. We know that Gandalf had a teacher-student relationship with Faramir, and we know that the two knew eachother. Gandalf most likely wouldn't have been able to deal with knowing he could have saved Gondor's last Steward, a friend, a man well beyond his years in wisdom.

Gandalf probably thought that the battle would indeed need his aid, but, I'm going to say Gandalf understood the concept of fate, and what was supposed to happen would eventually unfold. Gandalf had faith. The only choice was to save Faramir from the madness of his father.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Don't you think there's also the, slightly uncomfortable, notion of Gandalf believing Faramir was worth more than 'normal' men?

Gandalf knew Faramir; he didn't know the nameless soldiers. Gandalf knew that Faramir was a brilliant man; he could only suppose that the nameless soldiers were good men though, equally, he probably supposed that they were not as special as Faramir.

It's a classic moral dilemma. I'm not going to judge on it (yet ) but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Gandalf's decision was to do with judging the lives of some as lesser or greater than others.

[Guinevere]

Well, already when Denethor sends Faramir out on the hopeless errand to hold the passage through Osgiliath against the enemy, Gandalf tells him:

"Do not throw you life away rashly or in bitterness." "You will be needed here for other things than war."

So he clearly thought, that Faramir was important for Gondor. He is not only noble (Somewhere it is stated that "the blood of Numenor runs more true in him than in Denethor or Boromir" but I can't find the quote right now.) but he is also wise and compassionate, and the people of Minas Tirith love him.

And, like Bricho said, Gandalf was the only one who could save Faramir.

Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

So he clearly thought, that Faramir was important for Gondor. He is not only noble (Somewhere it is stated that "the blood of Numenor runs more true in him than in Denethor or Boromir" but I can't find the quote right now.) but he is also wise and compassionate, and the people of Minas Tirith love him.

I don't have the quote handy, but I'm almost positive that Denethor was not included in Tolkien saying that, I believe it was just Boromir it did not run "truly" in...which I always found to be rather annoying, bias, and selective...not to mention almost hereditarily impossible.

[Son of Númenor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Don't you think there's also the, slightly uncomfortable, notion of Gandalf believing Faramir was worth more than 'normal' men?

Gandalf knew Faramir; he didn't know the nameless soldiers. Gandalf knew that Faramir was a brilliant man; he could only suppose that the nameless soldiers were good men though, equally, he probably supposed that they were not as special as Faramir.

It's a classic moral dilemma. I'm not going to judge on it (yet ) but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Gandalf's decision was to do with judging the lives of some as lesser or greater than others.

The dilemma is not moral, really. Gandalf was not sent to Middle-earth to save anyone - he willingly sacrificed the lives of thousands of men.

Why? He was doing his service to Eru - he was doing his dharma.

I see a parallel between this and the tale of Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita - Arjuna is told by Krishna that he must do selfless service in the name of God, guided by Compassion - yet Krishna is telling him this as he prepares to slaughter his enemies in an epic battle.

It was for his own benefit that he led the characters of tLotR into battle - yet he acted solely out of Compassion.

I see this as frankly trans-moral. His impetus was Divine Purpose, and it does not matter at all to the story that his victory over Sauron was at the expense of the lives of characters in a musical composition.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

To be a, no doubt very basic, Devil's advocate, isn't there conflict between means and ends here? Great atrocities have been carried out in the pursuit of a higher purpose. Or is it just that Eru decides what is moral and what is not?

Maybe then Gandalf's decision was not a moral one, but there's the added bonus in the story of the author postulating a god. In non-fiction at least it's a classic moral dilemma, but it could lose something in adaptation.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

To be a, no doubt very basic, Devil's advocate, isn't there conflict between means and ends here? Great atrocities have been carried out in the pursuit of a higher purpose. Or is it just that Eru decides what is moral and what is not?

Maybe then Gandalf's decision was not a moral one, but there's the added bonus in the story of the author postulating a god. In non-fiction at least it's a classic moral dilemma, but it could lose something in adaptation.

Can you explain what you're saying here? I don't understand what you're getting at...

[Son of Númenor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

To be a, no doubt very basic, Devil's advocate, isn't there conflict between means and ends here? Great atrocities have been carried out in the pursuit of a higher purpose. Or is it just that Eru decides what is moral and what is not?

Maybe then Gandalf's decision was not a moral one, but there's the added bonus in the story of the author postulating a god. In non-fiction at least it's a classic moral dilemma, but it could lose something in adaptation.

I think the problem here is that you cannot look at The Lord of the Rings as the Arda cosmology.

Tolkien labored his entire career over the Arda cosmology; The Lord of the Rings represented one phase of his literary career.

Eru does not exist in the Lord of the Rings.

I was wrong in saying that the Lord of the Rings is trans-moral. In fact, the morality behind the Lord of the Rings is of a staunchly Catholic variety: a moral battle taking place on a plane on which Deity does not exist; there are, however, three 'transcendental' figures who impose themselves on the narrative: Gandalf, Wisdom; Sauron, Corruption; and Saruman, Wisdom Corrupted.

Then there is the Hobbit: there is no Deity and only a vague allusion to Transcendental force - though there is magic of a childlike variety, to be sure.

Then there is the Silmarillion: it is this piece which is trans-moral, as it presents to us the paradox of Evil as an Illusion which God caused to be.

Gandalf is the link between Trans-Morality and Childhood Faerie Tale: he saves Faramir as a moral act on the earthly plane which exists between the two, because he alone knows the trans-moral implications of sacrificing the lives of others.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Sorry to jump in in the middle of a dialog, but...

I do think that Gandalf's choice was a necessary one. With Denethor worse than useless by this juncture, and the risk ever present that Aragorn might die at some point in this struggle, Faramir is sorely needed as a back up. Between his exposure to the knowledge of Gondor, familiarity with Gandalf's priorities and his Numenorian disposition , Faramir would best serve in the role of Gondorian leader (though perhaps be forced into exile by Sauron's forces), should things go bad.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

Eru does not exist in the Lord of the Rings.

I don't believe that's correct. Although I can't recall the name "Eru" being said in specific in The Lord of the Rings, there are many references to a higher authority, or fate. Faramir and his men do a ritual prayer, if you would, facing the Undying Lands before supper in Henneth Annûn. The name of Eru doesn't have to mentioned for it to exist. If it didn't exist in The Lord of the Rings, then it surely couldn't have existed else where in Middle-earth at any time, for The Lord of the Rings is part of the big story.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

I do think that Gandalf's choice was a necessary one. With Denethor worse than useless by this juncture, and the risk ever present that Aragorn might die at some point in this struggle, Faramir is sorely needed as a back up. Between his exposure to the knowledge of Gondor, familiarity with Gandalf's priorities and his Numenorian disposition , Faramir would best serve in the role of Gondorian leader (though perhaps be forced into exile by Sauron's forces), should things go bad.

Exactly! Faramir was indespensible, for many reasons, not just his position in Gondor. And not to sound harsh, but in relation to the story, more common men dying on the battleground is far less important than if Faramir had been burned to death.

[Son of Númenor]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

I don't believe that's correct. Although I can't recall the name "Eru" being said in specific in The Lord of the Rings, there are many references to a higher authority, or fate. Faramir and his men do a ritual prayer, if you would, facing the Undying Lands before supper in Henneth Annûn. The name of Eru doesn't have to mentioned for it to exist. If it didn't exist in The Lord of the Rings, then it surely couldn't have existed else where in Middle-earth at any time, for The Lord of the Rings is part of the big story.

The fact is though that Eru is a character in Tolkien's cosmology but is entirely non-existent in The Lord of the Rings. One cannot attempt an analysis of the Lord of the Rings if one assumes that there is Godhead somewhere in its pages. The Valar are mentioned; Gandalf's divinity is hidden - what Gandalf does is what needs to be done - which means he is wrathful and joyous, "quick to anger and to mirth" - as long as he gets done what needs to be done - he is the Magical (not the Divine) Essence of Good in the Lord of the Rings.

[Holbytlass]

Something to add before I think about it further...
I think a factor also is Gandalf's love for Pippin. What might have been the difference if anyone else had come to him wanting his help in saving Faramir? Maybe Gandalf's love for Pippin is something that can be overlooked but Gandalf is still thinking of those out on the battlefield and the way the battle is going in when he says that other will die and debates within himself for a moment about going or not.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

The fact is though that Eru is a character in Tolkien's cosmology but is entirely non-existent in The Lord of the Rings. One cannot attempt an analysis of the Lord of the Rings if one assumes that there is Godhead somewhere in its pages. The Valar are mentioned; Gandalf's divinity is hidden - what Gandalf does is what needs to be done - which means he is wrathful and joyous, "quick to anger and to mirth" - as long as he gets done what needs to be done - he is the Magical (not the Divine) Essense of Good in the Lord of the Rings.

Smeagol falling was not deus ex machina

Frodo failing was not deus ex machina

So what was the outcome of the Lord of the Rings?

The Philosopher's Stone.

Yes, I agree the outcome of the story is golden, but this isn't The Alchemist. Although not apparent, there is no denying that other powers are at work in The Lord of the Rings that imply fate and a higher being. Just because Eru isn't mentioned within the story doesn't mean it is to be completely neglected, for Middle-earth in itself has to deal with Eru.

And to many, Gandalf was the magical and the divine. Heavenly figures have been wrathful too, you know. There's been many discussions which point to Frodo failing as being as fated by Eru, and just as though this can't be proven, just as though you can't say for a fact that it wasn't fate, or intervention of a higher being. By the way, I don't understand what "not deus ex machina" means, but I'm guessing it means "wasn't planned by a God", or something along those lines.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

Something to add before I think about it further...
I think a factor also is Gandalf's love for Pippin. What might have been the difference if anyone else had come to him wanting his help in saving Faramir? Maybe Gandalf's love for Pippin is something that can be overlooked but Gandalf is still thinking of those out on the battlefield and the way the battle is going in when he says that other will die and debates within himself for a moment about going or not.

Good point!

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

The dilemma is not moral, really. Gandalf was not sent to Middle-earth to save anyone - he willingly sacrificed the lives of thousands of men.

Why? He was doing his service to Eru - he was doing his dharma.

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

Eru does not exist in the Lord of the Rings.

You're contradicting yourself, SoN, if I understand this correctly. In LotR Gandalf is doing his service to Eru, who does not exist in the book? You can't possibly mean Eru exist in between the lines, since you reject that theory too. What can you possibly be aiming at?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

You gotta lay off that palm fenny, Son!

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Hilde Bracegirdle

You gotta lay off that palm fenny, Son!

haha, totally.

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

In the Return of the King Gandalf himself that by him saving Farimir many more would die on the Pelennor. Why did he do it then? Did he think the life of Farimir was worth more then the all the 'commoners' that Gandalf could have saved? Its not like that saving Farimir would have helped with the War of the Ring Farimir did nothing to help that after he was almost killed by his father.

On a personal level, I totally understand that, after what Faramir wen through, he didn't really have the energy to fend for his kingdom-thing. [I'm not really sure what the correct terminology is.] Honestly, I think he might have just wanted to let Aragorn to take over... IDK.

[mhagain]

I think Gandalf had to make a judgement call on which event had potential to do the most damage. It was by no means certain at that stage that Aragorn would win through, and a Gondor who's ruler had just killed both himself and his heir would have been well demoralised. All Gandalf could do was take control of specific (shorter-term) situations - the people of Gondor may have looked to him to rule and order things, and that he could not do. So in the end I don't believe he had any choice but to do what he did, irrespective of any moral ambiguity that may exist in the act.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I've seen some nice speculative outcomes for the Gondorian side of the equation on this thread, but little on the side of the combatants whom Gandalf 'abandons'. With that in mind, I shall examine some of the outcomes on the battlefield that result from Gandalf's decision, whether he would have been able to predict them or not. Hopefully I can at least demonstrate that Gandalf made the right decision, although he did so with an incomplete idea of its implications and deep misgivings about the impact it would have.

The most significant figure whose death is clearly brought about by the interruption of Gandalf's confrontation with the Witch-King is Theoden. His succession is assured, since he named Eomer as his heir before riding to the battle, and he is, in any case, an old man, who has already been saved from a far worse fate than death in battle. From his final words, we know that he feels his death to be fitting and acceptable, and he certainly achieves a grandeur in his last moments that would not be achieved by awaiting another, natural dotage. There would be nothing noble in Faramir's death on his father's pyre. Such an event would be sordid and tragic at the best of times, but is particularly so when Denethor's despair is so utterly deluded.

Theoden's death brings me neatly to other events of great importance to future developments. Most significant is the death of the Witch-king, which takes place as it does only because Eowyn and Merry are present at the fall of the king. This event motivates them to an attack that would have been unnecessary had Gandalf faced the chief Ringwraith himself, and which neatly fulfills the prophecy concerning his death. Although the Witch-king would in any case have suffered the same fate as his fellows when the Ring was destroyed, the damage inflicted on the enemy chain of command by their leader and champion's death at this stage and in this manner should not be discounted.

Stemming from the encounter over Theoden's corpse is Eowyn's presence in the Houses of Healing, which is a vital period in the development of her character. It is only as the more mature character who emerges from her stay there that she is able to fulfill her potential as one of the rebuilders of the Gondorian realms after the fall of Sauron. Had Gandalf not chosen to rescue Faramir, she would simply have died on the battlefield, a tragic, despairing young woman with her life unlived.

Allied to these positive outcomes from Theoden's death, we have the catastrophic implications for Gondor if their Steward and his heir were to be destroyed in so cataclysmic a manner. Such an event could be enough to tear the heart out of Gondor just when her last reserves of strength and courage were most needed, and the discord that could spread from the divided loyalties of the Citadel guards might prove debilitating at a crucial point in the War of the Ring. Most important of all, there is genuine evil in the situation that Gandalf barely resolves, which is not found on the battlefield: Sauron has warped and corrupted an honourable and courageous leader at a vital time, causing him to act in a manner that is entirely morally bankrupt and counter to the interests of his people. A father is poised to kill his one remaining son, who is also the last scion of his dynasty and a future political leader of Gondor. Even as a deputy to Aragorn, Faramir has a key role to play, but Denethor can see no value for him other than as ruling steward. As has been pointed out above, there is more tragedy in a struggle between opposing goods, however small, than one between aggressor and defender. For these reasons, Gandalf is morally bound to save Faramir and attempt to redeem his father, not simply for his own sake but for that of Gondor, the House of Stewards and the successful resistance of Sauron. Gandalf could not be expected to predict some of the benefits of his choice, but he knew enough to choose the course of action that brought them about. Although we can assume many deaths on the battlefield as a result of Gandalf's choice, in dramatic terms he exchanges the aged and victorious Theoden, killed in the execution of his greatest deed, for the young, troubled Faramir, whose greatest acts lie ahead of him and who stands to be murdered while he sleeps. Overall, it seems a fair judgement.

Out of evil, then, some good is salvaged. This brings me neatly to the presence or otherwise of Eru in LR and Son of Numenor's interesting theory. Admittedly Eru is not as far as I can remember mentioned by name, but there are several references to the One, which were referred to in Tolkien's last radio appearance. Since Eru is often given the byname The One, I think we can safely conclude that he is present in LR, albeit very much in the background. If one were feeling pedantic, one might say that the conception of Eru current in Tolkien's imagination in the late 1940s is present, just as Sindarin and Quenya are present in the forms they took at the time of composition and revision. These may be fossilised stages of a perpetually evolving imaginative world, but that does not negate their presence.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

This might just be me being a n00b... but the first time around, reading Lord of the Rings, I had no clue as to Gandalf's semi-divinity. I really don't think Tolkien ever intended us to see Wizards as transcendental beings in FotR, TTT, or RotK.

I agree with Son of Numenor (to a point) that when you look at the situation knowing Gandalf's position via the Silmarillion and what it has to say, there are some aspects that feel like Arjuna going out into battle instructed by Lord Krishna... but then I don't remember an avatara of Eru (perhaps Orome?) ever waltzing up to Gandalf and saying "Get on with the battle, you've got a destiny." Either Tolkien intentionally left that out, because he didn't feel a need to have use see someone instructing Gandalf, or there was no instruction whatsoever. I didn't read it in the Silm, or in RotK.

Ahem. Anyway, to make a short story long, if I hadn't read the Silmarillion, I would never have guessed that the Wizards were anything more than... well... wizards. I did several very close readings of LotR and until I started Silm, I never knew that Tolkien intended any sort of transcendental beings to enter on the scene.
Therefore, I put the blame for Gandalf's decision about Faramir solely on the political, personal, and social level that this thread started off with.

If you're bored, just read this part. Personally, I have to ask myself where Eowyn would have been if Faramir hadn't been in the Houses of Healing to convince her that life was worth living again. It's a moot point, because she would never re-enter the scene as a key player... but all the same. Maybe that's what Gandalf had in mind!

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

I never knew that Tolkien intended any sort of transcendental beings to enter on the scene.

The guy returns from the dead. It's not hard to make the connection, with all due respect.

[Raynor]

I really don't think Tolkien ever intended us to see Wizards as transcendental beings in FotR

Since they actually inhabit Arda, their transcendental aspect exists no more. The only time it existed was up to entering Ea.

[Guinevere]

Well, after the Squatter's brillant post which covers everything, there's really nothing left to say.

Just a note to Beanamir of Gondor about Gandalf being a "trandescental being" .
While reading LotR for the first time one doesn't know about Eru and the Valar, of course. There are just hints every now and then that there is some power behind it all, like MatthewM said.
And Gandalf the White does say "Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done."
Most information about this is found in "Unfinished tales" in "The Istari" and "The Quest of Erebor".

[Beanamir of Gondor]

*sigh* I just meant that for silly n00b5 or those who have never read Silmarillion or The Lost Tales, etc., they would have to do an extremely close reading of the texts to get anything about a higher power. Since you don't even know about Arda or where the Wizards came from, you don't know that their transcendence ever existed, much less that it ended when they left Ea.
It's obviously another thread topic, but I think the idea of Gandalf as a Messianic figure is going a bit far, MatthewM. "Coming back from the dead" is sticky terminology... did he really enter the halls of Mandos? (Agh! More Valar!) Or was it just a transitional phase?

This thread has gone drunken-Mr.-Rochester on me, so here I make my exit to ME Mirth.

[Raynor]

did he really enter the halls of Mandos?

No, because he went "out of thought and time".

Originally Posted by Letter #156

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Beanamir of Gondor

It's obviously another thread topic, but I think the idea of Gandalf as a Messianic figure is going a bit far, MatthewM. "Coming back from the dead" is sticky terminology... did he really enter the halls of Mandos? (Agh! More Valar!) Or was it just a transitional phase?

Well, I didn't say that Gandalf was a Messianic figure, but there is no doubt a connection with the transcendental here. As Raynor quoted Letter #156, Gandalf really "died."

I always thought it was a deliberate diversion by Tolkein to ensure Gandalf & the Witch King do not meet in direct battle. He wanted the glory of felling the Witch King to belong to a lesser folk.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I always thought it was a deliberate diversion by Tolkein to ensure Gandalf & the Witch King do not meet in direct battle. He wanted the glory of felling the Witch King to belong to a lesser folk.

You may be right, that he was trying to make a point; in letter #156, he notes that "yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands". The point seems to be that Gandalf has succeeded in his mission, to kindle the hearts of Men to battle against evil, and that this battle can be won by them - fulfilling general (race) and particular (witch-king destruction) destiny.

[MatthewM]

Just for some further proof:

Taken from Appendix B: The Tale of Years: The Great Years-

January
25 He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
February
14 Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.

Italiacs mine.

[Knight of Gondor]

Great discussion here. I would argue that Gandalf did not go only to save Faramir, but also to save Denethor, if he could.

I think all the points brought up are exactly why Gandalf (typically very decisive; he had to be!) had to pause and agonize over the decision. After a fateful confrontation with the Witchking himself, to let doubt assail him so heavily was very important. I think in the end, there were several reasons. Three have already been mentioned.

Personal: Gandalf was a mentor to Faramir, and would seek to save so noble a descendent of Numenor.

Political: Without a true Steward to surrender the throne to Aragorn, it might perhaps be a less peaceful transition of power.

Moral: Already discussed by others above. If I knew that I could choose to prevent either the president's assassination or the death of an innocent bystander, which would I choose? (I'm asking from an American standpoint, but just plug in your country's leader.) Most likely, the president's life would be the better to save in the long run.

The other two reasons I don't see discussed for why Gandalf chose the saving of Faramir are Foresight, and Leadership. As a Wizard, Gandalf was gifted with foresight. While he may not always have understood it, Gandalf's foresight was what sent Frodo and Sam -- the most unlikely of heroes! -- on the journey. It was the foresight of Gandalf that chose to bring Merry and Pippin on the journey -- a decision which, he pointed out, proved crucial in the long run.

Also, already somewhat covered under the political category, these warriors of old lived or died by their leaders. It was often very fortunate to slay the leader of a military group, because the it would scatter the troops and leave them leaderless. (Aragorn employed this strategy to gain exit from Moria.) Without a leader, it was quite possible that Gondor would not have the strength and devotion to fight. It was difficult for Gandalf to dissolve this devotion even to halt the guards from obeying Denethor's command.

In a lightning round of cost-benefit, Gandalf chose saving the leaders of Gondor over staving off the Nazgul.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

The other two reasons I don't see discussed for why Gandalf chose the saving of Faramir are Foresight, and Leadership. As a Wizard, Gandalf was gifted with foresight. While he may not always have understood it, Gandalf's foresight was what sent Frodo and Sam -- the most unlikely of heroes! -- on the journey. It was the foresight of Gandalf that chose to bring Merry and Pippin on the journey -- a decision which, he pointed out, proved crucial in the long run.

Nice points! I agree, Gandalf's foresight could have kicked in...so noble was Faramir, and their previous friendship (Faramir as a "wizard's pupil") most likely gave Gandalf great foresight on the possible future that awaited him...good stuff.

[Iarwain Ben-adar]

As we all know, Denethor already lost his favorite son, Boromir. Faramir was Denethors only son after that. Gandalf saved Faramir, in my opinion, because Denethor was already in such a mental state because of his constant viewings into the Palantir that another loss in the family (he had already lost Finduilas and Boromir; finduilas to grief, or of longing for the shores, and Boromir dying protecting the Hobbits). Denethor was the ruler of Minas Tirith, or Steward of Minas Tirith, and could command their armies. If he had lost Faramir, think of the commands he would have given in his lunacy! They would have lost the battle of the Pelennor because of his lunacy (ok, so maybe that is a bit of an exxageration; but he definitely would not have made things better!).

Also, people are sayng that Minas Tirith would have been leaderless if Faramir had not been saved; HELLO! Does anybody know the rightful heir to the throne, one of the main characters in the novels, the leader of the Fellowship? ARAGORN! he is the rightful king. So what if Denethor had no more descendants; Aragorn, the RIGHTFUL king, would just claim the throne as he would have even if Denethor or another Steward were ruling. It would not have made a difference if a steward were ruling or not; Aragorn would have claimed his throne after the battle of the Pelennor.

Thirdly, saving Faramir brought hope to the people. If you recall, Beregond had high praise for Faramir, and just talking about him and knowing that he would fight for Minas Tirith seemed to, to me, bring hope to Beregond.
I quote from The siege of Gondor, RoTK
"Nay", said Beregond,"this is no weather of the world. This is some device of his malice; some broil of fume from the Mountain of Fire that he sends to darken hearts and counsel.And so it doth indeed. I wish Lord Faramir would return. He would not be dismayed.

This shows that Faramir brings a certain hope to the people of Minas Tirith and Gondor because he is a fearless and noble and worhty leader. Here are the consequences if Gandalf had not saved Faramir:
-Crazy Denethor: What consequences for War and soldiers? Bad.
-Less hope for people
Those are two major consequences.All in all, Gandalf saving Faramir was a very important thing to do.

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Iarwain Ben-adar

Also, people are sayng that Minas Tirith would have been leaderless if Faramir had not been saved; HELLO! Does anybody know the rightful heir to the throne, one of the main characters in the novels, the leader of the Fellowship? ARAGORN! he is the rightful king. So what if Denethor had no more descendants; Aragorn, the RIGHTFUL king, would just claim the throne as he would have even if Denethor or another Steward were ruling. It would not have made a difference if a steward were ruling or not; Aragorn would have claimed his throne after the battle of the Pelennor.

The smooth transfer of power from the Ruling Stewards to the the Heir of Isildur is facilitated by the fact that Faramir, alive and kicking, recognises the claim of Aragorn. And in recognising that claim, Faramir departs from the centuries old Gondorian position that it is the heirs of Anarion rather than Isildur who can claim the kingship. Yes, Aragorn is one of the military leaders responsible for the victory of the battled of the Pelennor Fields. But note that he does not at that point claim the kingship after that battle.

But Imrahil said: "So victory is shorn of gladness, and it is bitter bought, if both Gondor and Rohan are in one day bereft of their lords. Eomer rules the Rohirrim. Who shall rule the City meanwhile? Shall we not send now for the Lord Aragorn?"

And the cloaked man spoke and said: "He is come". And they saw as he stepped into the light of the lantern by the door that it was Aragorn, wrapped in the grey cloak of Lorien above his mail, and bearing no other token than the green stone of Galadriel. "I have come because Gandalf begs me to do so," he said. "But for the present I am but the Captain of the Dunedain of Arnor; and the Lord of Dol Amroth shall rule the City until Faramir awakes. (my emphasis)

RotK, The Houses of Healing

The transfer of power from Steward to King comes later, after Sauron's defeat, with Faramir presenting Aragorn to the people of Gondor as the rightful King and asking that they accept him. It is important that the Steward should do this - the Ruling Stewards who, in the absence of a King, have held power in Gondor for centuries. That the Ruling Steward is prepared to surrender his rule to Aragorn, is a powerful indorsement. Without that indorsement from the Steward it might make it more difficult for Aragorn to press the legitimacy of his claim.

[Nazgûl-king]

Interesting question! Maybe he thought the people of Gondor, would be alright long enough for him to go and save Faramir?