Elves' Ears

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

So, what's the deal? Do Elves have pointy ears or not?

I can't recall a single sentence anywhere in Tolkien about pointy ears, but they're always painted that way, in movies that way, and described that way in fanfics and RPGs.

So what am I missing? Does Tolkien describe their pointy-ears and I've just missed it all these years?

For my money, I would prefer if they don't have pointy ears as that would solve a big problem for the Half-Elven: did Elros have pointy-ears that turned normal? Did Arwen? Did Elrond's ears get pointy?

[The Barrow-Wight]

Here's what people had to say in earlier discussions:

Do Elves Have Pointy Ears?
Pointy Elf Ears
Elfin Anatomy
How Pointy Were Elrond's Ears?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

did Elros have pointy-ears that turned normal? Did Arwen? Did Elrond's ears get pointy?

This question reminds me of a thread some summers ago, concerning the extent of Tolkien's creationist theories.

Now, if we follow a creationist approach, there would be no change or evolution, so that the state of the half-elven ears would be determined at birth, or, rather, at conception. This would, though, impinge upon the free will of the half elven in deciding which way to go, assuming there would be a unity between the inner desire and the outer expression.

It's a mystery.


EDIT: Opps, cross-posting with The Barrow Wight.

[The Saucepan Man]

In the links which Mr Wight kindly gave there are two references to Elvish ears being pointed:

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf). (Emphasis added)

A description of Bilbo in Letter #27 (March/April 1938)

and

LAS- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].) (Emphasis added)

From The Etymologies (in HoME V), dating from the late 1930s

These would seem to be the only published references to the shape of Elven ears, but do suggest that Tolkien conceived of them as pointed, at least in the late 1930s.

What's wrong with Half-Elves having pointed ears, anyway? Perhaps they were less pronounced than full-blood Elves.

[elfearz1]

This is *ahem* a subject very close to my heart

I don't have any real proof that they did have pointy ears. (Although I think saucepan man laid it out quite nicely) but I like to think they do have pointy ears, even if Tolkien never specifically said that they did. I think it just looks better and makes them more distinct from humans.

[Lalwendë]

What's wrong with Half-Elves having pointed ears, anyway? Perhaps they were less pronounced than full-blood Elves.

Perhaps they had one pointy ear and one non-pointy ear, much in the fashion of Bowie's differently coloured eyes?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur. Clothing: green velvet breeches; red or yellow waistcoat; brown or green jacket; gold (or brass) buttons; a dark green hood and cloak (belonging to a dwarf). (Emphasis added)

LAS- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekwelene), cf. Q Narqelion. Lhasgalen Greenleaf, Gnome name of Laurelin. (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].) (Emphasis added)

Thanks to the links provided above by the Wight, I saw these citations in the other threads. For me, at least, they do not really put the final nail in the pointy-ear coffin.

1. If these really are the only direct references to pointy-ears, then that's pretty slender evidence to hang such an important feature on.

2. I find them rather uncompelling in their own rights:

2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)


2.2 As to the citation from the HoME, there's all kinds of reasons for me to be unconvinced by it. First, who are these "gnomes" he's talking about? Second, the association between the word 'leaf' and the word for 'ear' is made in a very tenuous manner: "some think." Finally, the final word appears to be an assumption by the editor insofar as it is in parantheses with a question mark. This can only mean that the writing was not completed or that word is indecipherable -- in which case we don't really know what Tolkien meant in this throwaway line. And if the comparison in ear shape is not between Elves and Men, then how can we really draw any definitive conclusions about it?

Against these rather vague and uncompelling descriptions of Elf-ears I would hold up the much longer descriptions of Elves in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings (in particular, the description of the Elves in the Appendices) in which no mention is made of pointed ears whatsoever. Why would he reserve such a crucial distinction between the races for one letter and an illegible note in some rough drafts for an unpublished work??

Even among his unpulbished works (during his lifetime) the descriptions of Elves are remarkably devoid of pointy-ears. Nowhere in the Sil or UT do we hear that Elvish ears are anything special or different from our own. In fact, in another letter (#144 to Naomi Mitchison, who was proof-reading the typescript of LotR and so, presumably, Tolkien would want her to get it right) Tolkien describes his Elves:

They are represented as a race similar in appearance (and more so the further back) to Men, and in former days of the same stature.

Just checked in the mirror: I don't have pointy-ears, so I figure anyone "similar in appearance" to myself wouldn't either!

Guess that's settled now.

For my next trick, I'll prove that Balrogs had wings.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, you have put up a spirited fight, Professor, but I do think that you dismiss the two pieces of "pro-pointy ear" evidence that we have rather lightly.

The first tells us that Tolkien considered the adjectives "pointed" and "elvish" to be equivalent in connection with the description of ear shape. The capital 'E' is not used for "elvish" because he is using it as an adjective to describe a feature rather than a race. This also explains the use of quotation marks. He might similarly have said "hobbitish" in connection with the description of feet when intending to indicate them as hirsute. The point for me, though, is that his conception of the word "elvish" is one that involves pointed ears, so it is likely that he thought of his own Elves in this way, however different they were in other respects form the Elves of popular folklore.

The second shows us that there is clearly a close association between the Quenyan words for leaf and ear. Why would this be if there was not an actual association, most likely a physical resemblance, between the two things, both in the "fictional reality and in Tolkien's mind"? And the association can be made without regard to the speculation in brackets which, in a way, merely confirms the obvious (the relationship). This suggests to me that the "original" Elves (who spoke Quenya) had pointed ears. This may have changed over time, but this seems unlikely - and the quote that you have provided suggests that Elves became less Man-like over time rather than moreso.

As for the lack of any description of Elves' ears other than these references, well Tolkien was not really one for giving physical descriptions of his characters (as opposed to landscapes), in his published works at least, unless this was necessary for the story. The reason for the description of Bilbo Baggins in Letter #27 is because there is very little in the way of a physical description of him in The Hobbit - so much so, in fact, that there was a popular conception around the time that it was published that they were similar in appearance to rabbits! There is, as I recall, scant description of the appearance of Elves in either The Hobbit or LotR. Such that there is relates mainly to their beauty (a general term) and their hair colour (and Tolkien didn't even accord his main Elven character in the latter book, Legolas, that detail).

Tolkien's reference, in Letter #144, to Elves resembling Men in appearance does not, to my mind, in any way preclude pointed ears. I would describe Vulcans as being similar in appearance to Men, although there are obviously features which distinguish them. Moreover, ear shape varies considerably among humans and some can be quite "pointed".

Nevertheless, while I imagine Elves as having pointed ears (and have done since I first read the book), and I believe that the evidence points to Tolkien imagining them in the same way, the lack of any solid evidence in any published "final" story certainly allows ample scope for people to believe otherwise, should they so wish.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

All right -- I've decided we shall settle this in the only way I know how: democratically!

I've attached a poll to this thread so, having read through the arguments everyone get up there and weigh in on this heated issue.

It's your chance to have a hearing.

EDIT Hmmm. . .only been up for ten minutes and already we're tied at one vote apiece.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

2.2 As to the citation from the HoME, there's all kinds of reasons for me to be unconvinced by it. First, who are these "gnomes" he's talking about?

Fordie, you CANNOT be serious. Say it ain't so. You DO know that the original name for the Noldorin was "Gnomes." You knew that. Of course you knew that.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You knew that. Of course you knew that.

Well. . .yes. . .of course, of course. . .of course I knew that. . .known it for a long time. . .testing you all, that's what I was doing. Yes. . .testing you. Of course I knew that. . .who woudn't?. . .I mean that would be just silly, not knowing that. . .got you though, didn't I? I had you really going there for a moment. . .heh heh.

*shuffles papers*

[mark12_30]

Yes. Quite definitely had me going. But all is forgiven, at least all on my part.

Should a Gnomish gauntlet come flying your way, you may rest assured it did not come from me.

[Mithalwen]

Well I was converted to pointy ear fandom .. I have to admit it was something thet made me choke on my popcorn when I saw FOTR but then I read HoME ..... and they are so cute ... My grand-father seems to have had pointy ears and sadly I have not inherited them though I am otherwise very like . If I weren't so anti frivolous cosmetic surgery.....

[davem]

Certainly, Hobbits seem to have 'pointy ears':

http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit...en-bagend2.htm

so if hobbit ears are 'slightly pointed & Elvish' it would appear that
elvish ears must be more pointed.....

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by davem

Certainly, Hobbits seem to have 'pointy ears':

http://www.torania.de/luthien/hobbit...en-bagend2.htm

so if hobbit ears are 'slightly pointed & Elvish' it would appear that
elvish ears must be more pointed.....

I've got to say, I'm extremely familiar with that picture (when I was a kid it hung on the wall over my bed for about five years) and I never once saw Bilbo's ears as being pointed. I still don't.

I have, however, noticed that Bag End is a HUGE hole: if we assume that Bilbo is 3 ft 6 in, and that he is about 8 to 10 ft from the door (not an unreasonable assumption if we take the tiles in the floor to be standard 8x12 in) then we can pretty accurately measure the height of the door at 8 ft high, and the hole itself as being about 11 feet high (although the picture does cut off the top of the roof so that's more approximate).

But I digress. . .

[Saraphim]

Well...I firmly place my vote on "no".

I found, when I read the book, to initially imagine the elves with pointed ears, due to my upbringing of such.

However, when I developed actual thoughts and pholosophies on these sorts of things, I found that I prefered to think of the difference between elves and humans as more intrinsic, rather than simply a physical difference.

Of course, this could get messily C v.s. R , so those are my two small cents.

[Formendacil]

I honestly don't care.

Seriously, the ears was never a big thing until the movies came out (at least not to me), and the ears was such a trivial matter (and really, an ambiguous one) in comparison to the major problems that the movies created, that I never really cared.

I would say the no-ears case has a stronger grounding in Tolkien's thought, but since the revered professor never actually made a decision on the subject, why not just leave it up to the imagination?

However, as my own imagination sees them with rounded (although perhaps daintier than human ears) ears, I shall proceed to vote "Not Rounded" as soon as I post this.

[Elianna]

I'm for pointy ears. I sight the two references already given and argued. And besides, aren't they just cuter that way? *cuddles random elf dude*

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Drawings of hobbits with pointy eary by Tolkien: Pictures, descriptions of hobbits with pointy ears by Tolkien: Letters, descriptions of hobbits looking like men -- ONLY SHORTER: LotR, the Legolas issue and the relation of stem -Las to leaf shaped: Letters and History , and that hobbits and elves and by extension men (as it is now converging from BOTH sides of comparison), have pointed ears. (Saulotus)

If Elves have pointy ears, then Hobbits have pointy ears. But Hobbits are little Men, sorta.

Therefore, Men have pointy ears!

(Elenrod checks his mirror and hopes his invocation causes his ears to turn pointy.)

But you are a Noldo!

Clad in Mannish hroa. Quendian hroa will fizzle twenty minutes after exposure to this muck you call an "atmosphere".

[Estelyn Telcontar]

OK, I'm going to come out of the closet and say how I voted and why I made that choice. When I first saw photos of the movie hobbits before the films were released, I thought the pointed ears were a choice made by Peter Jackson and his team - and was not enthused. However, after reading that quote (given by Fordim above) by Tolkien, I realized that he had actually stated the shape of their ears. Since they are only "slightly elvish", I would take the meaning of that to be that Elven ears are more pointed than Hobbit ears. Therefore, Elven ears are pointed. Had they been identical with human ears, their shape would not have to have been mentioned at all. Thus my "yes" vote.

[Nimrodel_9]

Yes! Elves have pointed ears! Why? I do not know! I think it`s kinda one`s own opinion. Kinda like Balrogs with wings. Personally, I find pointy ears cute.

Nimrodel <---------Elven Maid of Old

[radagastly]

I voted no. Elves were genetically identical to humans in every way. It was just their Fea that was different, tied to the earth. Their body was the same as Men. The only men I've met with pointed ears got them surgically, not organically (Don't ask.)

So, what's the point behind these polls? I've read enough of your posts to know that you wouldn't bother with such questions unless you had something in mind. So, what is it?

I can't wait to find out!!

Originally Posted by Nimrodel_9

Yes! Elves have pointed ears! Why? I do not know! I think it`s kinda one`s own opinion. Kinda like Balrogs with wings. Personally, I find pointy ears cute.

Agree 100%! GF has slightly pointy ears, mmm...

Also, while pointy ears were certainly never proven, it was hinted at... rounded ears on the other hand were never even hinted at. "Similiar" doesn't mean exact copy. There can be some differences while still retaining similarity.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Elves were genetically identical to humans in every way.

They were?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by radagastly

Elves were genetically identical to humans in every way. . .

That's a good point -- for Elves and humans to reproduce successfully, they would have to be the same species! In fact, I now do recall reading Tolkien making this same point in one of the letters.

Sadly, this does not definitively prove that Elves' ears are like humans', insofar as there can still be wide variety of variation in things like eye shape, skin colour and, presumably, ear shape within species.

As to any ulterior motives, I am sad to disappoint you in admitting that I have none. If you can think of any yourself, however, do please let me know so I can enact them.

[Finwe-89]

I think Tolkien let them have pointy ears, but just didn't wrote it in the books. He didn't because in other older stories Elves had point ears, so he thought that everybody already knew

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

[INDENT]2.1 In the first citation, Tolkien is making a comment on Hobbit ears, not Elvish. His only reference there to Elves is extremely indirect -- not only is he referring to them as elves (with a lower case 'e') he even puts them in quotation marks, which means that he is using the word not in its usual sense. Given that he always capitalises the Elves of his world, and that he never refers to them in such a backhanded manner ("The 'elves' of Lorien. . .") I can only conclude that in this letter he is referring to the elves of popular imagination: those pixie like spirits of the wood which have NO relation to the Elves created by Tolkien. (In letter 151 to Hugh Brogan, Tolkien wrote that he came to regret calling his folk Elves since it allied them too closely with these trivial figures of English myth.)

Perhaps he means to be referring to elves in the "normal" sense, like pixie-elves. My response to that would be that much of the art work (at least nowadays) of elves has them having huge pointed ears which stick out a foot from their heads. Like this dude: elf?. So perhaps in saying that his hobbits' ears were only slightly "elvish" Tolkien meant pointy, but not huge like the other elves.

...Just a thought...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

However, after reading that quote (given by Fordim above) by Tolkien, I realized that he had actually stated the shape of their ears.

Actually, despite my use of those quotes to make my case, this question is, for me, answered on an instinctive level - like many Tolkien questions for which there is no definitive proof one way or the other. I always imagined Elves with pointed ears from the moment that I first read the books, And so that's the way it is for me. Had I imagined them without pointed ears, then my answer would have been "no", despite the evidence which I relied on in my earlier post (which I don't think provide definitive proof - although they are persuasive).

Now - off to the Balrog wings thread to give much the same response ...

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Fordim

That's a good point -- for Elves and humans to reproduce successfully, they would have to be the same species!

They might be, for all we know. But I believe they can still reproduce successfully if they are not of the same species. Look at the horse and the donkey. Or the members of the feline family.

Here's what my limited knowledge of Genetics led me to infer:
*Let EE=pointed ears, ee=rounded ears
Pointed ears could be a dominant trait (EE) exclusive to Elves, and Men possess the recessive gene (ee) to rounded ears. If two Elves procreate, their offspring would still have pointed ears (EE), no matter what (unless some freak-of-nature mutation occurs). A man and a woman would have a child with rounded ears (ee). But if a Man (EE) and an Elf (ee) reproduce, the resulting child would have the Ee genotype for ear shape. Due to the presence of a dominant allele E, the resulting phenotype would still be pointed - hence the Halfelves' pointed ears.

But if this is so, Elros should have had pointed ears (Ee). And since he married a human (ee), the Numenoreans should have had a variety of ear shapes (Ee and ee)! Maybe his choice of mortality came with free genetically-modified (rounded) ears, which he passed on to the Numenoreans. Aragorn has rounded ears, right?

This is much too confusing.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Just wanted to throw in the mix here that the Elves drawn by Tolkien in The Father Christmas Letters do not appear to have pointed ears. Actually, one doesn't see their ears at all. But I would tend to believe that if he felt very strongly that they did have such ears, he would have made some suggestion of it in these drawings. And I know some will argue that they are Red Elves, and really don’t figure in this discussion at all, but there you have it. He does call them 'Elves' not 'elves', though their stature is somewhat pixie-like.

In my own opinion I think that the Elves might have a very slight natural point on the inside ridge of the ear, similar to what can be seen in some humans. Just that it happens more frequently among Elves. I do not think it is unnaturally pronounced. Sort of like aquiline noses or Hapsburg jaws.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

They might be, for all we know. But I believe they can still reproduce successfully if they are not of the same species. Look at the horse and the donkey. Or the members of the feline family.

Quite right about the donkey, but remember -- donkey's are sterile. The textbook def'n of species (at least one part of it) is (searching memory back to first year bio) that they are able to produce off-spring capable of reproduction.

Elves and Men can have children together who then go on to have children -- ergo, the same species.

But like I said above, this does not settle the ear debate, since ear shape could easily have a lot of variation (in fact, it does in human populations: some of us have full lobes, others have lobes that are attached).

[Firefoot]

Just a little bit to add to Lhun's genetic reasoning:

Let's say you reverse it, so that rounded ears would be dominant (EE) and pointed ears are recessive (ee). That would mean that half-Elves would be "Ee" - rounded ears. This would mean that those who chose mortality could only have offspring with rounded ears because of the dominant allele (EE or Ee). So, all of Elros' descendents would have rounded ears, with the possible exception of Aragorn and Arwen's kids, because if by some strange chance Aragorn had an Ee genotype and Arwen did too some kids could have pointed ears - ee. The problem this would present would be for half-Elves who chose immortality - some of their offspring might have rounded ears with the genotype Ee - rounded ears.

[HerenIstarion]

Letters, 153 - to Peter Hastings

I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event

Lobes may be different, Fordim (also, donkeys are fertile, that's mule who's sterile ), but have you seen really and explicitly 'pointy' years? What would be the purpose? I suppose the 'outer' year - auricle, is some kind of a 'sound trap' - with the function of 'catching' and 'directing' the sound in. The pointed side has no biological function in the case, while lobes may have.

On the other hand, there is also:

Letters, 27 To the Houghton Mifflin Company

I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).

But 'slightly' pointed is not what we've seen rubbed onto Arwen's ears in the movie. My friend has 'slightly' poinded ears, if you follow me, kind sirs and ladies.

cheers

[THE Ka]

I don't really know if they do, Maybe it's like with our ears, you know some have connecting lobes, some don't.

At least it's not like me and my dad. I have two different ears... one is slightly pointy and has no connecting lobe, the other is rounded on the top and has no connecting lobe. Also I have these weird bumps on the outer sides of my ears (My dad has this too.) Some nurse asked me if i had warts on my ears when I was at the doctor's office. Had to tell about the families' ear bumps...


~Ka~

[davem]

Well, they might have been pointed, but not at the top - maybe they had pointy lobes....

[Elianna]

I've always liked to think of the quote from the Etymologies that Elves' ears are more "leaf-shaped" than humans (Aside: I've heard at greenbooks with tOR.n that the 'h' of 'humans' was clear, but it was the rest of the word wasn't). I know the Professor means a leaf like a beech or something like that, but wouldn't it be funny if he meant Elf ears look like maple leaves or oak?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

It sounds convincing. If we were to think that we are an extension of Middle-earth, and then taking into consideration:

My grand-father seems to have had pointy ears and sadly I have not inherited them . . . (Mithalwen)

[plus other quotes referring to a real-life person with pointed ears scattered throughout the Downs; too time-intensive to look for them all.]

then there must be a pointed-ear gene in mortals. Where, then, would have that come from?

Like you said, Elves, Men, and Hobbits have pointy ears.

So do Ëalar, Ents, and Tom Bombadil.

I didn't say that.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by davem

Well, they might have been pointed, but not at the top - maybe they had pointy lobes....

Too many centuries wearing arkenstone earrings.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

My ulterior motive revealed at last.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

With posts to this thread apparently winding down, and the count so obviously in favour of the pointy-eared option, I think I'm going to have to call it. . .

Elves have pointy ears.

Thankfully for those of us in the "No" camp, the Barrow Downs is probably a parliamentary democracy, which means we can form His Barrow Wight's Loyal Opposition and continue to hurl abuse and scathing questions at the honourable members from across the floor who have carried the day (for now, for now. . .)

Coming soon: a poll to settle that other Middle-earth shattering debate. . .

What Colour Was Legolas' Hair? (or, perhaps, his Hare).