Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXV: On the Borders of Mirkwood Planning Thread

[Boromir88]

It is the TA before the events in the Lord of the Rings. A group of mannish settlers have built a town in the southern end of Mirkwood. The woods folk haven't lived here long, before it has become invaded by werewolves intent on wiping out the village.

Victory Conditions
-Villagers wins if they eliminate all werewolves from their village
-Werewolves win if they equal the number of Villagers with their own

The Threads and Voting

-Game Thread for the Living players. Where people discuss and vote during the DAY phase for one person to be lynched. During the Night phase, the Game Thread is silent.
-Dead Thread for all deceased players. During the DAY phase the deceased players discuss and vote for someone in the Game Thread to be their Medium/representative.
All dead players may continue discussing events during the NIGHT phase.
-Dead werewolves may privately communicate with themselves during the NIGHT phase only. Dead werewolves can never communicate with any Living werewolves.

-No roles or players exist in both threads. Once deceased, it remains so. The dead may view the Game Thread, but can not post in it. The Living under no circumstances can view or post in the Dead thread.

-Make your vote on a separate line (with one empty line both over and under it). Use the traditional form:

++ Boro

To make it look like that (to make it “highlighted”), bold the vote and then change the letter B in square brackets into the word: highlight

The Game Thread players vote for one person to lynch during the DAY phase. Votes are not retractable in the Game Thread. They are set in stone.
-The player with the most votes goes to the gallows and their role revealed in the Narration.
-in the event of a tie, the player who received the most number of votes first is the player lynched (coincidentally I realize why Nog made this rule, because in my last WW game, there was a "get the last vote flurry" in the last day or so, because everyone knew everybody's role pretty much :P. So I'm going with it.)

The Dead Thread During the DAY the dead vote for one person in the Game Thread to be their Medium/representative on that day. They may choose the same person to be their Medium for as many days in a row as they wish.

If a Medium is selected their vote will count as 2 in a lynch.
If a Medium is not selected it means there was too much division amongst the dead, and no one's vote in the Game thread is doubled.

There are retractable votes in the Dead thread to help them better form a consensus. There is no limit to the number of times a player can retract their vote. But once the majority+ threshold is reached voting for the Medium is over. The person who reached the required vote automatically becomes the Medium for that day.

A majority+ means if there are an even number of dead players, they need 1 more than half for a Medium to be chosen. If there is a tie, or no one reached the threshold no Medium is chosen on that day.

The Medium will be explicitly revealed in the end of day narration. If there was no Medium, it will also be revealed in the narration.

To retract your vote for the medium:

--Boro

**Deadlines on voting for both threads is 10pm GMT (6pm EST)**

The Roles

4 Wolves (1 of them the Nightmare Wolf)
1 Cobbler

1 Seer
1 Ranger
1 Beast Hunter
8+ Villagers

Werewolves (4)- choose 1 person every night to kill until the number of villagers equals their own. They can communicate privately during the NIGHT phase. Living wolves can not privately communicate with dead wolves, or vice versa.

Nightmare Werewolf- 1 of the 4 wolves is a nightmare wolf. It will be revealed to the entire pack who the NW is. If the NW dies it will be revealed in the narration that it was the NW that died. When they die the NW can choose 1 living player to "haunt" each night. The NW invades the player's dreams during that night. If the player is a gifted, their special abilities are blocked that night.

-The NW does not have to choose a player to haunt every night. Once dead, they have this ability through the duration of the game and can not lose it.
-The NW can not find out anyone's roles. They only know if they choose a player to haunt, they will be successful as there is no power in the Village to stop the NW's ability.
-The NW can not choose the same person to haunt 2 nights in a row
-Other dead werewolves can communicate privately with the NW during the NIGHT phase to help determine a victim (or that there is no victim that night)
-Any player, regardless of role, is informed if they were the target of the NW's haunts

Cobbler (1)- Is counted as an ordinary villager, but desires the werewolves victory. They do not know who the wolves are and can not privately talk to any of them.

Seer (1)- chooses 1 person to dream of and discover their identity each night. If the Seer dreams the Cobbler, they will only see the cobbler as an "ordinary villager." If a victim of the NW's haunts, they will receive a PM stating their dream was invaded by the NW and were unable to uncover the role of person they dreamed.

Ranger (1)- chooses 1 person to protect from the werewolves kill each night. The Ranger can not protect themselves and can not choose to protect the same person 2 nights in a row. If a victim of the NW's haunt, the ranger will receive a PM stating they were frozen by a horrible nightmare and their protection failed.

Beast Hunter (1)- The BH sets a booby trap near 1 person's location each night in hopes that the trap will catch and kill a werewolf. The BH may put the trap near themself, but can not set it near themself or the same person 2 nights in a row. If victim of the NW's haunting, the BH receives a PM stating they were frozen by a horrible nightmare and could not set their booby trap that night.

The sequence of events for this role:

BH sets a trap nearby Boro's location
Werewolves choose to kill Boro
Boro is killed, and becoming careless in celebration for the kill, one werewolf sets off, is caught and killed in the trap.

In the event the Ranger and BH are both "protecting" Boro, and the werewolves choose to kill Boro the same night. The Ranger stops the kill. The BH's trap was not triggered and so no werewolf dies.

This is a 1-trap Beast Hunter. If successfully trapping a werewolf, the pack become more cautious and are able to sniff out/disable any more traps set. The BH thus becomes an ordinary villager for the remainder of the game.

**The werewolves can PM the mod which one of them gets caught in the trap. If I do not have a choice from the werewolves, I will put the names in a randomizer. Click randomize 10 times and whichever name is first is the werewolf that dies**

-If lynched only the BH dies

Villager (8+)- vote to lynch 1 person suspected of lycanthropy each day. If one is chosen as a victim of the NW's haunts, they will receive a PM stating they had a terrible nightmare.

Miscellaneous

-Any reveal that proves a player's role such as posting a PM from me or other players, or directly stating you received a PM from me or anyone else that proves your role will result in mod fire. Player removed from the game and unable to contribute in the Dead Thread.
-Moderator discretion: Any Living player who does not vote in a lynch 2 nights in a row may be mod-fired. I'm usually pretty flexible here. Emergencies happen and you may not have the time you thought when originally signing up. Just send me a PM and we can discuss the best way to proceed. I will accept a ++No Vote as a person casting a vote.
-Participation and voting in the Dead thread is completely voluntary.

The Players

A Little Green
Blind Guardian
Brinniel
Huinesoron
Kath
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Macalaure
Nogrod
Nilpaurion Felagund
Pitchwife
Rikae
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin
Thinlomien
Wilwarin538


Night 1 will begin June 3rd 10pm GMT
Sign-ups can continue until then.

[Galadriel55]

The Beast Hunter is like a cross between a Hunter and a Ranger. I agree that it's too powerful a figure in a small (normal sized?) village. Normally a successful Ranger pick results in a "known" living innocent, whereas the BH's successful pick results always in a dead wolf, which is more powerful than the Hunter can get.

What happens if the BH and the Ranger target the same person? The innocent lives, but a wolf dies?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Beast Hunter is like a cross between a Hunter and a Ranger. I agree that it's too powerful a figure in a small (normal sized?) village. Normally a successful Ranger pick results in a "known" living innocent, whereas the BH's successful pick results always in a dead wolf, which is more powerful than the Hunter can get.

What happens if the BH and the Ranger target the same person? The innocent lives, but a wolf dies?

From what I've read about the role and it's sequence of events.

BH sets a booby trap around Person X.

Wolves target and kill Person X.

In their celebration/joy at a successful kill the wolves are not very careful and one of them triggers the trap, is caught and killed in it.

After one of their own is caught in a booby trap, the wolves proceed more carefully in future kills and sniff out/disable any more traps.

So in the event you describe, I would say the sequence would go. The Ranger stopped the wolves kill. The BH's trap was never triggered and no wolf dies.

[A Little Green]

Do you take signups already? If you do please count me in!

I really like the Beast Hunter idea. I agree it would require a larger village, but then, I'm guessing we'll have a lot of people with empty calendars over the summer

The nightmare wolf sounds interesting too - although the obvious question is whether s/he can haunt the same person multiple Nights in a row. I'm imagining a scenario where the dead wolf has figured out who the Seer is and proceeds to block all further Seer dreams for the entirety of the game. Also do all dead wolves become individual nightmare wolves, or is there only one nightmare wolf pack? (Additionally interesting game dynamics-wise is the possibility of ordos "revealing" that they were targeted by a nightmare wolf, thus giving the village known innocents - or prompting fake nightmare reveals and a massive headache for all concerned )

[Rikae]

Please sign me up!

Originally Posted by Boro

send a PM to the villager and say they had been haunted by the spirit of a dead wolf.

I quite like this, because it gives that villager a small, but potentially useful, piece of information. Just knowing you attracted a wolf's attention can spark a whole new train of thought.

Is the nightmare wolf a specific wolf or the result of discussion and voting among the dead pack?

[Loslote]

Thanks for modding Boro! I like the setting, and the special roles sound interesting. I'm excited for this game!

I like the idea of the BH in a larger village, I agree with the 16 player threshold.

Originally Posted by A Little Green

(Additionally interesting game dynamics-wise is the possibility of ordos "revealing" that they were targeted by a nightmare wolf, thus giving the village known innocents - or prompting fake nightmare reveals and a massive headache for all concerned )

That occurred to me as well. I think having possibly a known innocent every Night is too powerful - what if only Gifteds are told that they were targeted? Also, what if only one of the wolves has the Nightmare Wolf role? Then the wolves might have to plan around "if one of us dies, it should be NW", and the village would have an extra twist to try to figure out if the wolves throw the NW under the bus.

[Huinesoron]

Assorted thoughts:

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

-The Nightmare Wolf sounds heavily unbalanced - but I'm not sure which way! The wolves get two shots per night to take out the Seer (one permanent, one temporary), but the villagers can theoretically clear someone every day. I think not letting ordos know they were nightmared would probably swing the balance too far - it would also mean the Gifted had even more information, so you're back into Gifted vs Wolf (+ bystanders) territory. As originally written, though, the two effects may balance out?

-I think the Medium as written looks pretty solid.

hS

[Loslote]

Also, I suppose anyone who claims to have been visited by the NW isn't actually a known innocent. The wolves could arrange a code - the NW doesn't use their power if one of their packmates says the word "purple", then the wolf who said "purple" claims to have been visited. So it's a little less powerful than I had initially thought.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

Or, taking time zones into consideration, the wolves could specify in their PM who they would like to sacrifice, regardless of who sends it.

Originally Posted by HS

-If you wanted to revisit your original idea at some point (the role-revealing gifted one), you could combine it with the one-shot power idea: everyone has an ability, but you can only use it once/twice/etc. It would probably require a lot of balancing work, though.

That's a thought. Another option is a role I tried to use in my first game (which was utterly misused by TP IMHO, so requires careful evaluation) where a pseudo-Seer sends dreams to other people. So innocents and wolves alike can receive dreams at the discretion of the dream sender.

In all fairness though, I think it's so frustrating when roles are not revealed upon death. It's blind chaos.


I like the NW idea. I think part of the balance of that role should be the determination of who becomes the NW, and under what conditions. Some ideas:
- the first wolf to die, but only once the Dead Thread has X number of members
- the second wolf to die
- the wolf taken out by the Beast Hunter
- all wolves collectively on the thread, but only when a minimum 2 wolves are dead

[Blind Guardian]

I think your ideas sound interesting. Sign me up!

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?

I'm intending to allow the potential for a dead cobbler, or dead wolf to have a little more impact in either choosing or stopping a Medium.

Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)? Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?


Sorry if my post is a little naive. I've been reading through some old games but they're LONG and I'm not done yet.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)

There will be 2 people, the first from D1 and the second from N2 (unless Ranger save).

And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).

Or any Day from that matter. From what I understood, a Medium vote requires that over 50% of the Dead Thread votes for them. I.e. even if there are 10 dead people, but their votes are split 4/3/3, there will not be a medium (because in this case you need a minimum of 6 votes).

Originally Posted by BG

And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

That would make a formidable pack.

Originally Posted by BG

Would there be a random Medium or just no Medium on the first two or so days?

I think no Medium. Having a random Medium defeats the point of achieving a majority+ vote, which gives the village certain info. If the Medium is random, that info is lost - in fact, the village doesn't even know if the vote is from the GT or if it's randomized.

Originally Posted by BG

Would the Nightmare Wolf not be able to stop the Medium (to prevent them from being too powerful)?

The NW acts at Night on gifted roles. They do not act during the Day. Also, the Medium is not a permanent role, but rather a title that gets voted to a different person every Day. That person doesn't have a special power they are in charge of, their vote just counts twice.

Originally Posted by BG

Would the other Wolves know who the NW is?

I think that's still in the air. Is the NW a predetermined role, or is it the first (or second) wolf to die, or do all dead wolves PM amongst themselves and send a collective pick?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

To quote Planet of the Apes: you did it! You really did it, Boro!

I'm absolutely up for another game, too.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It is the TA before the events in the Lord of the Rings. A group of mannish settlers have built a town in the southern end of Mirkwood. The woods folk haven't lived here long, before it has become invaded by werewolves intent on wiping out the village.

Most important question first. Is Dol Guldur at this time already known as Dol Guldur, or is it known as Amon Lanc?

...anyway, the setup looks very good to me by default. I especially like the Bounty Hunter... eee... disclaimer: I already perceive I am not, and likely will not, be able to remember the role's actual name. The Nightmare Wolf under those circumstances would be a must-have, as it is, with the Medium (even though and the Bounty... or whatever... Hunter, the game is likely to be skewed a little to the villagers' side. (Even though of course the Medium can be as much a boon as bane, but maybe a tiny bit more likely to be helpful.) The NW should take care of it though.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Assorted thoughts:

-If you want to avoid randomness, the trap could kill whichever wolf sends the night-kill PM. That lets the wolves choose who to sacrifice, rather than putting a potentially game-changing effect in the hands of a non-player (the mod/RNG).

I actually rather like this idea.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, I suppose anyone who claims to have been visited by the NW isn't actually a known innocent. The wolves could arrange a code - the NW doesn't use their power if one of their packmates says the word "purple", then the wolf who said "purple" claims to have been visited. So it's a little less powerful than I had initially thought.

I see someone's already got into the plotting mode
But yeah, I'm a bit afraid of the "reveal to any NW's targets that they've been targeted" part... but if people start bluffing and double-bluffing with it, then, no harm done I guess...

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

So there's no Medium on day One (since no one is dead [except the mod])
And no Medium on day Two (since only one person is dead - most likely)
And there might not be a Medium on day Three (in the case of a tie).
And there's no guarantee that a Wolf will be killed on the first few days either.

These are actually good points. Even though on Day 2, there would already be two dead (Day 1 lynch and Night kill), but they would have to unanimously decide on what they do. But I guess that at least would give them something to discuss. But it may happen more often than not that the Medium simply won't get chosen. (Which, I mean, is just as well. No big deal.)

But is there a specific reason, Boro, why you wouldn't allow even stuff like 1-0 to be a successful Medium vote?

EDIT: X-ed with Gal (why do I feel the need to mark this even now?!?)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

++Nilpaurion Felagund

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I've thoughts, but not at 4 am.

[Boromir88]

Wilwa! Nilp! Shasta!



There is a good size to get more underway I'll post an updated draft of the roles and rules in the next few days. With a tentative start set sometime next week, or perhaps the week after.

[Thinlómien]

Boro, if there's just one day in the middle of the game when you can't make it to the deadline, I don't think that's a problem. I'm sure there has to be one 'downs ww player who can't/ doesn't want to play but would happily be your one time substitute mod and start the Day/Night if you leave them instructions.

I like the Beast Hunter; I'm not a big fan of the medium/representative thing to be entirely honest but that's just a personal preference - I think it would work nicely with this array of rules though.

As for the Nightmare wolf, I need to think about it a bit. My original fear was that we'd have a game where every Day some ordo claims to have been haunted and thus every Day the wolves have to decide whether they counter claim and put themselves in the spotlight or let it slip past and let the village have a "known innocent". That would really suck for the wolves. But the updated rules already look a lot more balanced.

I also think it would be interesting if the Nightmare wolf was a specific wolf and the wolves would need to strategize around sacrificing them.

PS. Wilwa and Nilp

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Boro

I believe Nog and Brinn still intend to to play again in June.

Yeah, I'm in.

Any chance I can request a slightly later deadline, say 10 pm GMT?

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

++Nilpaurion Felagund

Congrats, Boro, you got him out of retirement. I hope you don't regret it.

[Nogrod]

Count me in as well, if there's still room.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

Congrats, Boro, you got him out of retirement. I hope you don't regret it.

Never!

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Count me in as well, if there's still room.

Yes. I was hoping to hear back from you and that you would be able to join. There are a couple other familiar Downers, Eomer and Kuru, I sent word out to that said they were interested in checking it out.

And I'll get an updated draft of everything that's been discussed here in the next day or so.