Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

No, not hint, you would deny it to me anyway.

Is it Bilbo?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

No, not hint, you would deny it to me anyway.

Would I offer if I'm not planning to give?

It's not Bilbo.


The subject is not a major one like Bilbo and Saruman, but it's not too trivial and obscure either. Not something ridiculously obscure like Adamanta Took. More like minor-but-not-obscure, like, say, the Red Arrow. (and obviously it's neither of those)

Also, if it helps, the different styles of stanzas are almost two separate storylines. Almost. They still relate to each other and are a continuation of one another, since it's the same subject speaking. The italics is more of a present thing, whereas the regular font is more reflection on the past...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

This is pretty confusing, really. Right now I don't have much of a clear idea, although I keep thinking along certain lines - the question is, whether it's right direction or not. The "East to West" part really confuses me the most, or ruins most of my ideas, because it seems like it is pointing at the correct answer rather clearly, but its purpose avoids me. (I mean, if the answer could be "The Golden Company", it would have been easier )

Okay, let's start with random shot in the dark, then - Osgiliath? (I am pretty sure that's not it, but at least could help to see if it's somehow around the correct line of thinking. Osgiliath, of course, could imply on the Gondorian soldiers to "keep"it and "not to leave" it, even though it's been practically destroyed - scarred etc; but the "bringing" and "not being happy" does not sound very fitting in that context. Listing the successes "from East to West" could somehow hazily refer to Mordor's conquests - from East to[wards] West; I also think here it would be stretching it a bit. Watching the water could be literal in the case of Osgiliath, given its geographic position, but again, if it was Osgiliath, I would have perhaps expected something more direct...)

[Galadriel55]

Not Osgiliath. You're thinking along the right lines, though. You have basically picked out some of the more important lines in the riddle. I would suggest also thinking about "Are they comming? No more going." Ask yourself who could be coming, and why there is no more going.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hmm. It really keeps puzzling me. Usually when I think of something, the water part really makes no sense in there, and what makes the least sense - always - is the "bring" part. Because I keep thinking of places.

Just continuing along the same lines from before - it occured to me that it might be Ithilien. It fits in most of the same cases as Osgiliath (though I'd be careful about saying that it "never" heals, but then again, Osgiliath might too), the water could also be a hint to Henneth Annun, and most importantly, all this coming/going could refer to the whole Ranger/Haradrim stuff.

But somehow I still think I'm too far off. Right now I basically keep focused on places, and Gondor-related ones on top of that, because it sounds like the most plausible. And of those, Osgiliath/Ithilien sounded the best. But we'll see.

[Urwen]

Well, now I am thinking Maglor for some reason.


For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

First Age shenanigans
Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!

The shoutout to grey haven bunch (Gandalf, Frodo, Galadriel, Cirdan, Elrond etc etc to take him with them.

The verse 'you can't watch the water flowing' indicates that he can only watch the sea, whose waters don't flow.

[Galadriel55]

Still no correct answer.

Originally Posted by Urwen

The verse 'you can't watch the water flowing' indicates that he can only watch the sea, whose waters don't flow.

It does not refer to the Sea, but I much like the bolded part.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But somehow I still think I'm too far off. Right now I basically keep focused on places, and Gondor-related ones on top of that, because it sounds like the most plausible. And of those, Osgiliath/Ithilien sounded the best. But we'll see.

Yeah, the subject is not even remotely related to Gondor. Aside from the fact that they are in the same universe...


There are some lines that could tip you off about the setting/event of the riddle, which would then help you identify the speaker. From East to West. Legate had some very good thoughts about this one. Are they coming? Oh yes they are. No more going. Why can't there be more going? The answer to this is not a sentimental one, but something very down-to-earth logical. Like 2+2=4. You can't watch the water flowing! Again, why can't you? Yet another very logical and not sentimental answer.


And again, as I said, the riddle has two parallel "plots" in it. If I were to rearrange the stanzas chronologically, it would look like this:

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!



The "Will you...me?" lines basically all take place at the same time. And they are a question for the future - will you take me now, so that later you will (perhaps) keep/bring/give me? The 4-line stanzas, on the other hand, all say what has happened in the past.


Also, regarding "heal" - the subject is partially recovered, but complete recovery is quite impossible.

[Urwen]

Well, now I have this crazy idea, the answer is not a person, but the answer did belong to a person, moreover, the answer, I think, belonged to Isildur in the past and had previously belonged to Elendil. Which means that the answer is Narsil.

Therefore, it now becomes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerandir
Correct, your turn! I guess the hint I gave was too much, but without it, it would be pretty hard.

If you just said Yule/December/winter, I wouldn't have thought of it. But there are only that many events than involve Dunlendings.


Alright, here it goes. Hopefully it's at least a bit tricksy and not complete rubbish:


Will you take me?
I'm no beauty.

For I am marred,
My skin is scarred;
I never will
From all this heal.

Will you keep me?
I'm not strong, see.

From East to West
Many a success -
I shall list them
If you'll listen.

(Sauron coming from Mordor to Numenor)

Will you bring me?
I'm not happy.

(Not happy about Numenor downfall)
I could tell a dreadful story -
Death and darkness, fall from glory.
(Fall of Numenor)
Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!
(This could also refer to coming of Eru, or maybe the fact that the Orcs are coming, and I think the second fact is more accurate. Isildur died while watching the flowing water, so he can't watch it anymore)

Will you give me?
Do not leave me!

(It was probably given to Ohtar after and later forgotten until the late
third age)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay okay. In case Urwen's is not correct, I got one more idea - prompted by Gal's advice regarding the problematic verses.

At least this:

Are they coming? No more going.
You can't watch the water flowing!

If the only reason I can't watch the water flowing is that it is still, then... that brings to my mind the dammed Sirannon by the gates of Moria (with the lovely Watcher and all that belongs to it). The sentence are they coming? would then be much more literal reference to the famous last words in the Book of Mazarbul. (And why there can't be any more going when they are coming, is obvious: the Western side is blocked by the non-flowing water, the Orcs are coming, nowhere to go.)

Now it would be the rest of the riddle, on the other hand, which would prove more tricky to decipher. Of course many of the things can be taken as a general referrence to e.g. Moria as a whole. What puzzles me is Galadriel's insisting on the past/present explanation of the two parts of the riddle. Because to me, I have been taking note of this, but it does not seem to be such a big deal. Unless...

Unless it's the Book of Mazarbul itself (and I should facepalm myself for writing two paraghraphs of thinking aloud since mentioning it the first time). Then the "taking" and all (taking the book to carry it along, certainly not being a "happy" read; nor is it any beauty - it's been pretty much damaged in the battle, pages torn, bloodied, "skin" - possibly even the literal leather in which it's bound, huh? - also damaged...) would be very much plausible. Ah yes. That might be it. And, of course, what else does a book like that do than to list events - then, the past/present division would really be important in the riddle...

So? Is it the Book of Mazarbul?

[Galadriel55]

It's a brave attempt, Urwen, but Legate's shot went nearer. In fact, he quite hit the mark on the dead center.

It it indeed the Book of Mazarbul.

Here are some extracts from it that would help explain some things:

We drove out orcs from the great gate and guard... We have taken the twenty-first hall of North to dwell in...Balin has taken up his seat in the Chamber of Mazarbul...Balin is now Lord of Moria...Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...westwards to Hollin gate - From East to West (the actualy direction!) many a success

We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the bridge and second hall... the pool is up to the wall al Westgate... We cannot get out. The end comes. They are coming. - They are coming, no more going, you can't watch the water flowing.

The book is quite "scarred" by all the holes, burns, and stains, and it is quite impossible to "heal" it, as Legate has said. And it's not strong; it is very fragile.


The questions "will you...me?" refer to Gimli. We know Gandalf told him to take the book, so yes he took it, and he probably kept it at least part of the way, but we don't know it's fate from there. Did Gimli succeed to bring it and give it to King Dain?



Well done, Legate, and good try, Urwen. Maybe next time you'll be more successful.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

We drove out orcs from the great gate and guard... We have taken the twenty-first hall of North to dwell in...Balin has taken up his seat in the Chamber of Mazarbul...Balin is now Lord of Moria...Oin to seek for the upper armouries of Third Deep...westwards to Hollin gate - From East to West (the actualy direction!) many a success

Ha! That's pretty cool observation. I never noticed that it actually runs in that direction. Interesting! (Well, of course, obviously that's the direction in which the Dwarves were moving, but such an analysis of this particular piece of writing shows how even the text's structure is exactly that way, something one does not necessarily think of normally.)

In any case, the most memorable riddles are the ones that are difficult and take some time to decipher, but not to the point that one becomes desperate and practically unable to answer So I would say this was one of the pretty good ones.

All right, so... I'll try to think of something... shortly!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay. Not sure how good (and most of all, how decipherable ) this is, but I hope it will be at least enjoyable for you

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night,
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show.

[Galadriel55]

I do not have an answer that I am confident with, but I'll try this one anyways; maybe I'll even go in the right direction. And this could always give other people ideas.

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago. - Seek for the Sword that was Broken, in Imladris it dwells...

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - dunno. Aragorn and Sam, perhaps? Sam was afraid and suspicious of Aragorn at first. But it's Aragorn that Sam dislikes, not his sword. And it is Glorfindel's appearance that puts him at ease, not Anduril's ability to "bring friends"...

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - could be a reference to the victory at Dagolrad.
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show. - Ohtar fled Isildur's death scene with Narsil, thus saving hope and enabling the latter generations (ie Aragorn) to use this powerful weapon again, thus bringing about Sauron's defeat.

No, I don't think it is the Shards of Narsil (or Narsil, or Anduril, or the Sword that was Broken, or what have you), but I am wondering if I am interpreting certain things right. For one thing, I think the first stanza is somehow referring to a vision or dream.


I mean, it would be much easier if the answer could be Dragonglass!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good try, G55, but as you correctly say, it isn't the right interpretation

I shall write comments on your interpretations, make out of it what you will

With the start, the first thing that I would have asked you would be whether you think Faramir's dream is unveiled by the skies. Maybe it is, if you were thinking along the lines that in that dream the sky in the east darkened and there came the voice speaking the riddle, of however it was. It could be that it was the skies that had spoken in that place, if it could be thus interpreted, then indeed it was a tale told by the skies that unveiled the truth about the Broken Sword etc. But like I said, it isn't the Broken Sword. I think you have proceeded correctly in the analysis of the second verse, especially in the analysis of why it isn't right And as usual, I took good care of which words I have used. If there is a word, it isn't just random, it has its purpose there.

So, the door is open - continue guessing...

[Galadriel55]

This time I can't shake off the idea that the first stanza is referring to these passages:

Originally Posted by Fog on the Barrow-Downs

But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.

Originally Posted by The Grey Havens

And the ship went out into the High Sea and passed on into the West, until at last on a night of rain Frodo smelled a sweet fragnance on the air and heard the sound of singing that came over the water. And then it seemed to him that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back, and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

But........ it can't be right. Because then the subject (Valinor? sunrise? dream? rain?!) does not make sense with the rest of the riddle.


How much sense does it make to post answers I know beforehand to be incorrect for the sake of posting something?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

But........ it can't be right. Because then the subject (Valinor? sunrise? dream? rain?!) does not make sense with the rest of the riddle.


How much sense does it make to post answers I know beforehand to be incorrect for the sake of posting something?

Oh it does, because it might nudge somebody in the right direction via some unlikely association, and also, it is equally important to determine where the path does not go With the above, I won't be so sure that the skies do actually reveal any hidden mysteries in such a case - unless you call Valinor a mystery.

If the "skies" part is too confusing, then of course you can start with something else and get back to it later.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

With the above, I won't be so sure that the skies do actually reveal any hidden mysteries in such a case - unless you call Valinor a mystery.

That's true. It was the only canonical mention of unveiling that I could think of, though. Perhaps there are others... hmm...

Wait, I know another mention. And this time it has to make sense.

"As if a dark veil had been withdrawn, the Mirror grew grey, and then clear." ~The Mirror of Galadriel

The Mirror reflects the stars and sky before the above happens.

Sam only sees the future. Frodo sees the present/future/recent past. And then he sees bits of history.
-Elendil's ships coming from the West in a great storm (while Numenor is sinking, presumably)
-wide river flowing from a populous city (Osgiliath?)
-white fortress with seven towers (Minas Tirith/Ithil?)


It makes too much sense with Elendil and/or one of his "crew", and yet not enough sense. Curse that Other! Curse the mystery! Curse the friends! *grumbles*

Maybe you're right, and I should start from a different corner.

[Galadriel55]

After some thinking... Aragorn's trip through the Paths of the Dead.

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil - Frodo sees Aragorn's pirate ship in the Mirror
mysteries hidden long ago. - the future was hidden by Iluvatar

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, - Denethor is still the ruler of Gondor. Or perhaps Eomer, who is already King of the Mark
I'm first a fear until - duh, they think he's a corsair.
I show him I can bring your friends; - a whole army of friends!
his trust shall be of importance. - huh? I mean, it could mean a whole lot of things, but I think this is something more specific than that Aragorn was friends with Eomer. Possibly that Eomer trusted Aragorn and gave him, Gimli, and Legolas horses to go look for the hobbits? No. Because "shall" is not "was".

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - now that's where it just crumbles to pieces.
and in mine and the Other's flight - that Other (may he be stabbed with dragonglass!) just kills it again. Aragorn leaves Theoden's side as if to escape battle and he travels at an impossible speed, either of which could be called flight, but he does it with over 30 men, not with one other! On the other hand, Aragorn is called Wingfoot by Eomer, but that is a totally different storyline and he still has more than one companion.
I save more than the tale did show. - well, he does, in the end.

Still no answer.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No and no, like you once again correctly analyse, it won't work that way

The tale with Aragorn won't work because already in the first part, the Mirror, well, what does it have to do with the skies? Sure, skies reflect in it, but that's about it - they do not play any important part. It's the Mirror that shows, not the skies that reflect in it (in fact, only when the reflection disappears, then the Mirror starts to show something).

The second part is better, it would almost fit if not for the last sentence, it isn't only a random statement, the importance of the trust is really something notable

And like you said yourself, the third part just crumbles apart.

Don't feel discouraged (anyone) - and if you really feel lost, I can post some hint...

[R.]

The Great Eagles maybe ?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Any reasons for that?

I suggest, for future reference, to post at least some short summary, or main points why you think it might fit - it might also help you because then I can show where the thinking went wrong, and perhaps can help you correct it.

Also, since this is this type of question, I would prefer any possible answers to include at least a note on what are the "first, second and third" mentioned in the riddle. If you guess correctly, then you should be able to figure out. It is not a necessary requirement to be absolutely sure with all three, if your answer is right, I will accept it anyway, but it would be better so it isn't just random guessing...

But no, "The Great Eagles" is not the answer.

[Galadriel55]

For lack of any intelligent guess, I'll just analyze the riddle. Maybe something will come into my head while I'm writing.


To first of you, I'm just a tale, - the fact that it's "just" a tale brings me to the conclusion that they've never met, but the first of you has heard about the speaker
told by the skies, - Legate's comments make it sound like it is literally told by the skies, and the fact that it's specifically the sky is important
as they unveil - I was going for a canonical mention of unveiling, but I might have been overreaching here. It could just be a way of saying "revealing".
mysteries hidden long ago. - it's the mystery part that's troubling.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - this verse sounds like the most straightforward thing in this riddle.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - the word enlighten is botherig me a bit - shed light or knowledge, or, in a wordplay, could be to make less heavy. Judging purely by the wording of the sentence, it sounds more like sheding light.
and in mine and the Other's - not one, not three, but two of them.
flight - to fly or to flee? I certainly hope it's not a flight of stairs, because that makes no sense.
I save more than the tale did show. - I'm wondering if this is a bit of poetic license or the "tale" really didn't appreciate the flight enough. Also, could it be the same tale as was referred to in the beginning? Hmm.



As a random guess, could it by the Sun or the Moon? No it couldn't. The first and third stanza could fit, the second fits with a stretch. And who exactly is bigger? Erm...never mind. (that's the general outline of my thought process for the past few days...)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Evaluation of the above: this was absolutely perfect analysis of the riddle (of course there are places where further clarification would help more, but as it is, I cannot find any flaws in the analysis). I don't have anything to add to that and comment on. The "thinking aloud" and analysis of why something might mean something and what could it be and all the questions are also going in pretty right directions. So the only thing that remains is basically to find the concrete and specific subject(s) of the riddle

[R.]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Any reasons for that?

I suggest, for future reference, to post at least some short summary, or main points why you think it might fit - it might also help you because then I can show where the thinking went wrong, and perhaps can help you correct it.

Also, since this is this type of question, I would prefer any possible answers to include at least a note on what are the "first, second and third" mentioned in the riddle. If you guess correctly, then you should be able to figure out. It is not a necessary requirement to be absolutely sure with all three, if your answer is right, I will accept it anyway, but it would be better so it isn't just random guessing...

But no, "The Great Eagles" is not the answer.

Oh my apologies I didn't really understand the thread, plus I couldn't possibly hope to answer as eloquent or articulately as most of the other members. SORRY

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by r.j.c.

Oh my apologies I didn't really understand the thread, plus I couldn't possibly hope to answer as eloquent or articulately as most of the other members. SORRY

It doesn't have to be that eloquent, and it isn't really required to post the explanation of everything. Only I prefer it (especially in this case) so that I know people aren't just throwing around random words.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

So, does this need some hint?

I could give you even a very BIG hint, but I wonder if that's what should be done.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

So, does this need some hint?

I could give you even a very BIG hint, but I wonder if that's what should be done.

Well, I haven't forgotten about this, I just don't have any better ideas. So I suppose a hint would help. I'm not sure if it calls for a big hint, but a small one would be nice.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Small one... okay.

I do not know how to phrase this, but let's say for example this and see whether it is enough of a hint

Very much of the riddle, or, very many things, phrases, which could be metaphorical, are in fact literal. Not all of them, but certainly more than half of the riddle can be understood literally

[Galadriel55]

Whatever I think, I keep returning in an endless cycle to the Silmarili - in particular the one of Earendil.

I know it doesn't really fit. Nothing I could think of does. I can make a whole list of things that don't fit.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - Earendil was a mariner that tarried in Arvernien... or how does it go? Eventually it gets to the Silmaril part. So the "first" is some hobbit. Frodo, maybe. Or Sam.
told by the skies, as they unveil - told by the skies? Well he's seen in the skies often enough, but told?...
mysteries hidden long ago. - I suppose no one except for Elwing saw that Silmaril up close since Earendil went out to his long voyage in the sky...

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance. - I'm not really sure; this could refer to one of the times where Gil Estel was used as a reference point for direction (hence "bring")

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night, - to Earendil himself when he journeyed West
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show. - when Elwing flew to Earendil's ship with the Silmaril. It's a great thing that she did too, because of all the possible conequences both at sea and in Beleriand that would have happened had she not done so. Yet she's just said to have flown onto Earendil's ship, and he is given all the credit for their journey.


The second stanza really ruins it. And that the skies tell the tale.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, the skies... How often do "skies" play any role in Tolkien's writings?

So as for your attempt, as you have expected, not really. This is much more off than your previous general analysis. In fact, it is very very much off, except for the fact that you happened to mention one related thing, which has not been mentioned on this thread before.

I would maybe say one more thing. Have you noticed that the whole riddle is written so that the subject addresses "you"? So the subjects present in the riddle are: the answer, then some "you" which is being addressed (and whose friends can be brought), then there happens to be "the first of you" (showing that the "you" probably should be a plural...); and then there is the one defined only as "the second one"; and then the third one, whom you don't know.

[Galadriel55]

It's much easier to say what it could mean than to find something that actually fits all the criteria.

So far I have considered and discarded Ents, Pippin, and Gollum. Pippin could kinda fit with a stretch - first=Theoden, second=Bergil, third?... but friends? and Bergil and Theoden didn't really know each other - so no, it couldn't.

And the skies... most of the time it's something like "the skies darkened with nightfall as the travellers walked on"...


This is pretty much not a guess but a post to show that I'm still here...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

No, not Pippin, nor Gollum nor Ents.

Maybe you can try approaching it again from a different perspective. How many events that can be described as "terror's night" do we have in Tolkien? And then you can try dismantling the third stanza based on that and further, the others...

[Galadriel55]

I do beliebe I've learned the riddle by heart now, but I'm still no closer to the answer.


Alright. What can I come up with for terror's night? Off the top of my head, the death of the 2 Trees, and the darkness that Sauron sent out in preparation for the decisive battle. What could have enlightened anyone/thing at those times?

Death of the 2 Trees of Valinor: The Silmarili and the fruit of the trees, ie the Sun and Moon. But I have already guessed both. Wait... stars! But stars don't seem to make much sense with the rest of the riddle. I don't think anything was made lighter at that time, so that meaning is out. How about to make known? It's awkward phrasing, if that's the meaning, but there's one instance of finding knowledge, when Manwe looks from Taniquetil and sees Morgoth escaping in a black cloud. So is it possible that "to the third"=to Manwe, "enlighten the terror's night"="explain" (for lack of a better word) the reason for the darkness, "flight"=Morgoth's and Ungoliant's... but which is "I"?

Sauron's darkness before battle: too many and too few things that are involved with light. Phial of Galadriel? Therefore the "third" has to be Frodo or Sam, but the rest makes very little sense. Beacons? Can neither fly nor flee and are no mystery. The wind that blew the dark away? Ridiculous. Make lighter - Sam helping Frodo? Doesn't fit. Give knowledge? Faramir to Gandalf about Frodo? Then who are "you"? Everyone knows Gandalf. Plus, he's not some sort of mystery.



Just as a fun note, I=Gandalf and Other=Balrog, because, wings or no wings, they did succeed in flying.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Just as a fun note, I=Gandalf and Other=Balrog, because, wings or no wings, they did succeed in flying.

Flying, you fools

Valiant attempt (and certainly I appreciate resurrecting the thread!), G55. However, both of your attempts to find "terror's night" have one thing in common.

Neither of them is literally a night.

I mean, one is darkness created by the fact that the only sources of light had been destroyed, the other is some supernatural darkness unleashed from Mordor. But "night" is simply the word for certain time of day (er... night). I want to hear about that one.

Hope it helps

[The Might]

I have returned!
And I have a strong hunch the answer is Túrin.
Here's my thoughts, mostly based on the first four lines.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - No idea who the first person is
told by the skies, as they unveil - In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return. In later developments of the story, the stars came to represent none other than Túrin, who was fated to return from the dead and face Melkor in the Last Battle.
mysteries hidden long ago. - This tradition can be seen in the words of the Silmarillion, where Menelvagor 'forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days.'

I don't have many ideas for the other lines and it's late so I can't come up with much.

[Morsul the Dark]

I want to say beorn the first two make me thin of the big and little dippers or Ursa Major and Minor ursa the bear... story told in the sky... I know it doesn't really fit but it's what I'm taking away from the riddle for now...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by The Might

I have returned!
And I have a strong hunch the answer is Túrin.
Here's my thoughts, mostly based on the first four lines.

To first of you, I'm just a tale, - No idea who the first person is
told by the skies, as they unveil - In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return. In later developments of the story, the stars came to represent none other than Túrin, who was fated to return from the dead and face Melkor in the Last Battle.
mysteries hidden long ago. - This tradition can be seen in the words of the Silmarillion, where Menelvagor 'forebodes the Last Battle that shall be at the end of days.'

I don't have many ideas for the other lines and it's late so I can't come up with much.

Dang you! That's probably it. I can think of scenarios from Turin's life that would fit the other two stanzas. Confound it all!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hey hey, lovely to see the interest in this thread renewed

Sadly, neither of the answers provided is correct. You'd have to find how Túrin fits to the rest of the riddle But I strongly suspect he doesn't. As for the Ursa Minor-Ursa Major guess, that's certainly a clever approach, but not a correct one. All of the references are strictly "in-universe".

Guessing Túrin is once again looking for too advanced things in there.

[Azaghâl]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, the skies... How often do "skies" play any role in Tolkien's writings?

A most valid question, reminded me of the rain...

And not only do they play a role but they "unveil mysteries hidden long ago". It had to be the keyhole revealed by the setting sun, when it is litterally unveiled by the clouds at the last second.

Still the rest made no sense. Then there were the friends which I thought could be Dain and his army; and the Other which could be the Eagles, or their King as it is a singular, and well they did save the day, nearly.

I was getting near but I still didn't get the "I". It took me another week but now I think I have it and because it never harms to go back to the texts, this is my answer:

To first of you, I'm just a tale,
told by the skies, as they unveil
mysteries hidden long ago.

There on the grey stone in the grass was an enormous thrush, nearly coal black, its pale yellow breast freckled with dark spots. Crack! It had caught a snail and was knocking it on the stone. Crack! Crack!
Suddenly Bilbo understood.

To second one, who's bigger still
than me, I'm first a fear until
I show him I can bring your friends;
his trust shall be of importance.

'We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure,' said Balin. 'Keep watch now, and see what happens!'
Before long there was a fluttering of wings, and back came the thrush; and with him came a most decrepit old bird.

And to the third, whom you don't know,
I enlighten the terror's night,
and in mine and the Other's flight
I save more than the tale did show.

Suddenly out of the dark something fluttered to his shoulder. He started - but it was only an old thrush. Unafraid it perched by his ear and it brought him news. Marvelling he found he could understand its tongue, for he was of the race of Dale.

So in the end, the friends are the ravens, and the Other is Smaug. First, second and third are Bilbo, Balin and Bard who is unknown to the first two at this point of the story. I, of course, is the thrush. That is my interpretation.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes and yes indeed!! That was absolutely amazing job, Azaghâl! You deserve applause for solving this riddle after what seemed a bit like lost case. (I have already forgotten about the rain riddle, but I see that there remains some similar pattern in my riddles - whether it's for good or not remains a question )

I think the key here was really to start thinking about The Hobbit. It sort of frustrated me (though I can imagine similar frustration on the side of those who tried to guess) to see everyone once again starting to think about obscure things from the Silmarillion or who knows where, since I picked The Hobbit intentionally, as everybody was aware of the movie being released that year (when I posted the riddle originally... ), and once again I thought I was being too obvious (well, I think so every time and every time I am proven to be wrong).

So the "I" is, of course, the thrush; aside from what Azaghâl said, "to first of you, I'm just a tale..." was also supposed to allude to the hidden script written in Moon-Letters, where the thrush is really only mentioned in a rather cryptic way; the mysteries could also refer to the script itself, revealed only under the moonlight. "The first" could then be practically anyone of the Company, I was thinking of Thorin, since then the use of words "the first" could have double meaning, but it isn't necessary (the "you" of course is Thorin's company as a whole in any case). "The second" was meant to be specifically Bilbo, with the hint to his height (however the smallest, still bigger than the thrush), plus he was the one mistrustful about the thrush in the beginning. "His trust was of importance" because of what followed, so the thrush could be around and Bard could learn about Smaug's weak spot. The rest Azaghâl sums up correctly - the "terror's night" is indeed the night when Lake-Town is destroyed, the Other is Smaug, the person referred to is Bard; I could only add that with the line "I save more than the tale did show" I was thinking about The Quest of Erebor (and the Appendices to LotR) where Gandalf remarks that perhaps by killing the Dragon the Free Peoples were saved from one possible future ally of Sauron who could literally set the North ablaze. But that's all detail and all was supposed only to serve the identification; the main point is the thrush, and that is the correct answer.

I think Azaghâl rightfully deserves to post the next riddle Looking forward to it!