Tol Eressea and Aman - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 06-08-2002, 11:06 PM

I still don't understand this. Would the Elves who sailed to Tol Eressea at the end of the Third Age have been allowed to sail on to the mainland of Aman, or not? In other words, were they restricted to Tol Eressea only? What about the hobbit Ringbearers like Frodo and Bilbo?

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Melephelwen · 06-09-2002, 04:20 AM

I know absolutely nothing about it, but my guess is, that they are allowed to go to Aman. It wouldn't be fair to let them go so far, and then let them stay in Tol Eressëa. Maybe it would be concidered in every single case, so Manwë decided if they would be allowed to see Aman [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Nevtalathiel · 06-09-2002, 05:37 AM

My understanding was that the elves who remianed on Tol Eressea were allowed to, and did continue on to Aman after some time on the island, but I'm not sure about the non-elves who sailed over the sea.

Daniel Telcontar · 06-09-2002, 02:13 PM

After what I understand, Tol Eressea was used as a place where you got used to living in Aman. That means that the Elves would definetly continue to Valinor. I also thinks that the Ringbearers were allowed. I mean, what harm can it do that they come to Valinor?

Elrian · 06-09-2002, 02:45 PM

Tol Eressea was originally the island used by Ulmo to transport the Elven Kindres to Valinor. Osse had asked that it be left there after this was done, because then there would be Elves in his part of the sea. The island was not really settled until the beginning of the Second age by the remnants of Beleriand that sailed into the West. As it was part of the lands of the Valar that were removed from the circles of the World by Eru at the time of the destruction of Numenor, I wouldn't think any would be forbidden from journeying to Valinor proper, since those that dwelt there were not outcasts, if that were so they would not have been situated so close by being in the Bay of Eldamar. Ships coming in from Middle Earth would come to Tol Erresea before they would to Alqualonde.

Daniel Telcontar · 06-09-2002, 02:47 PM

Just what I meant, although in other phrases. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

akhtene · 06-09-2002, 06:52 PM

Quote:

...the Eldar were permitted still to depart and to come to the Ancient West and to Avallone, if they would

Can the ANCIENT West mentioned in Akallabeth be Valinor itself? Then choice of the destination is left with the travellers.

Quote:

And then it seemed to him (Frodo) that as in his dream in the house of Bombadil, the grey rain-curtain turned all to silver glass and was rolled back and he beheld white shores and beyond them a far green country under a swift sunrise.

To me this vision of Frodo's seems more like the mainland (Valinor ?) than just an island. Of course, it's just a vision, one may say. But hardly those Powers who allowed him to get the glimpse of the Blessed Land in his dream (?) would later deprive him of coming there.

Elrian · 06-10-2002, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Can the ANCIENT West mentioned in Akallabeth be Valinor itself?

Yes it is Aman/Valinor.

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

***Mithadan*** · 06-10-2002, 01:27 PM

Child, last week you asked about canon and HoME. This week you raise the question of Tol Eressea and whether Elves in the Third/Fourth Age can reach Aman. The two questions are inter-related. In his earlier conceptions of the Silmarillion, Elves who rejected the summons to Valinor were not to be allowed to reach Aman even after they chose to travel into the West. The implication was that the refusal of the summons was a rejection of or rebellion against the Valar's rightful authority. Similarly the Gnomish (Noldorin) rebels could not return.

Tol Eressea became a solution to this exclusion, allowing Elves to leave Middle Earth without reaching Valinor. It seems that Tolkien softened this position as his work evolved. The published Silmarillion says the Noldor would dwell in Tol Eressea from whence they might come even to Valinor (or words to that effect). In HoME 5, the conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, paragraph 27, uses different language but also says that Elves may both visit or dwell in Valinor upon their return into the West. There is an implication that some preferred to dwell in the Lonely Isle which lay to the East of Valinor, perhaps because of its "proximity" to Middle Earth.

[ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ]

Daniel Telcontar · 06-10-2002, 01:30 PM

Galadriel was one of these rebellious Noldo, who was not allowed to go to Valinor. But after the War of the Ring she was because of her work against Sauron. But did that mean that the other Noldor also could not return to Valinor until after the War of the Ring, because they did not return after the War of the Wrath?

Child of the 7th Age · 06-10-2002, 05:09 PM

Mith-- Thanks for that clarification. I've heard some people say one way, and others say the other. At least I know why they can't agree now.

I am struggling through the Silm, UT and the volumes of HoMe, but it goes slow. Plus some of these nuances are going to take more than one reading to sink in.

But it does seem that there is more than one area where you can come up with different answers depending on which source you use. I was especially struck what a different portrait of Galadriel you can get depending on what source you are looking at.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

06-08-2002, 11:06 PM	#1
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Tol Eressea and Aman I still don't understand this. Would the Elves who sailed to Tol Eressea at the end of the Third Age have been allowed to sail on to the mainland of Aman, or not? In other words, were they restricted to Tol Eressea only? What about the hobbit Ringbearers like Frodo and Bilbo? sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

06-09-2002, 04:20 AM	#2
Melephelwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: the Middle of Nowhere Posts: 291	I know absolutely nothing about it, but my guess is, that they are allowed to go to Aman. It wouldn't be fair to let them go so far, and then let them stay in Tol Eressëa. Maybe it would be concidered in every single case, so Manwë decided if they would be allowed to see Aman [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ We're all following a strange melody We're all summoned by a tune We're following the piper And we dance beneath the moon

06-09-2002, 05:37 AM	#3
Nevtalathiel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The depths of delusion Posts: 374	My understanding was that the elves who remianed on Tol Eressea were allowed to, and did continue on to Aman after some time on the island, but I'm not sure about the non-elves who sailed over the sea. __________________ "You can go a long way with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun." - Al Capone

06-09-2002, 02:13 PM	#4
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	After what I understand, Tol Eressea was used as a place where you got used to living in Aman. That means that the Elves would definetly continue to Valinor. I also thinks that the Ringbearers were allowed. I mean, what harm can it do that they come to Valinor? __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

06-09-2002, 02:45 PM	#5
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Tol Eressea was originally the island used by Ulmo to transport the Elven Kindres to Valinor. Osse had asked that it be left there after this was done, because then there would be Elves in his part of the sea. The island was not really settled until the beginning of the Second age by the remnants of Beleriand that sailed into the West. As it was part of the lands of the Valar that were removed from the circles of the World by Eru at the time of the destruction of Numenor, I wouldn't think any would be forbidden from journeying to Valinor proper, since those that dwelt there were not outcasts, if that were so they would not have been situated so close by being in the Bay of Eldamar. Ships coming in from Middle Earth would come to Tol Erresea before they would to Alqualonde. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

06-09-2002, 02:47 PM	#6
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Just what I meant, although in other phrases. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

06-10-2002, 01:27 PM	#9
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	Child, last week you asked about canon and HoME. This week you raise the question of Tol Eressea and whether Elves in the Third/Fourth Age can reach Aman. The two questions are inter-related. In his earlier conceptions of the Silmarillion, Elves who rejected the summons to Valinor were not to be allowed to reach Aman even after they chose to travel into the West. The implication was that the refusal of the summons was a rejection of or rebellion against the Valar's rightful authority. Similarly the Gnomish (Noldorin) rebels could not return. Tol Eressea became a solution to this exclusion, allowing Elves to leave Middle Earth without reaching Valinor. It seems that Tolkien softened this position as his work evolved. The published Silmarillion says the Noldor would dwell in Tol Eressea from whence they might come even to Valinor (or words to that effect). In HoME 5, the conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, paragraph 27, uses different language but also says that Elves may both visit or dwell in Valinor upon their return into the West. There is an implication that some preferred to dwell in the Lonely Isle which lay to the East of Valinor, perhaps because of its "proximity" to Middle Earth. [ June 10, 2002: Message edited by: Mithadan ] __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

06-10-2002, 01:30 PM	#10
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Galadriel was one of these rebellious Noldo, who was not allowed to go to Valinor. But after the War of the Ring she was because of her work against Sauron. But did that mean that the other Noldor also could not return to Valinor until after the War of the Ring, because they did not return after the War of the Wrath? __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

06-10-2002, 05:09 PM	#11
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Mith-- Thanks for that clarification. I've heard some people say one way, and others say the other. At least I know why they can't agree now. I am struggling through the Silm, UT and the volumes of HoMe, but it goes slow. Plus some of these nuances are going to take more than one reading to sink in. But it does seem that there is more than one area where you can come up with different answers depending on which source you use. I was especially struck what a different portrait of Galadriel you can get depending on what source you are looking at. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.