When did Deagol find the Ring? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Angry Hill Troll · 12-10-2003, 10:50 PM

According to the chronology at the end of ROTK, it was around TA 2500. But in The Silmarillion (in the 1st edition anyway), in the section 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age' it says that the Ring was

Quote:

...found by one of the small fisher-folk that dwelt by the River, ere the Kings failed in Gondor...

In other words, at least 500 years earlier, since the last King went missing in the early 21st century. Which chronology did Tolkien actually intend?

Gashberz · 12-11-2003, 12:44 AM

Im sorry i dont have an answer for you. I am currently trying to read the smillarian amd its like reading a dictionary. sorry that I am of no help.

Finwe · 12-11-2003, 11:26 AM

According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, the Ring was lost for two and a half millennia after Isildur was slain, and he was slain in year 2 of the Third Age, so I think that Deagol found the Ring in the year 2502 of the Third Age (give or take about a year). That gives Gollum plenty of time to become corrupted.

When the quote says "ere the line of the kings failed" it doesn't mean exactly when the line failed. Earnur, the last King of Gondor before Aragorn II Elessar, had been lost in the year 2050, when he never returned from a challenge issued by the Witchking. "Ere" is probably being used as a term denoting general area of time. To translate that quote into more "modern" English would probably thus result in something like: "...about when the line of the kings failed," not "...exactly when..."

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:30 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]

Lord of Angmar · 12-11-2003, 12:45 PM

I disagree somewhat with your logic, Finwe. "Ere" means "before" or "previous to," and since the date that you say the Ring was found is approximately 452 years after Earnur disappeared, I can only attribute the word "ere" to an error on Tolkien's part.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:46 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 12-11-2003, 01:52 PM

Since Tolkien originally placed the finding of the One Ring by Déagol much earlier (before the failure of the line of the kings, in fact) it's more than likely that the passage in the Silmarillion pre-dates the Tale of Years of the Third Age as published. Since Tolkien himself prepared the Tale of Years for publication, I think that we should take that to be the definitive source for the date of the Ring's discovery.

Finwe · 12-11-2003, 05:04 PM

Perhaps the "ere" confusion was caused by Tolkien editing some things, but forgetting to edit other things, resulting in conflicting stories.

Lord of Angmar · 12-11-2003, 06:34 PM

I agree that that is probably the most likely scenario.

Eol Telemnar · 12-11-2003, 08:42 PM

Woa, that's an easy one. Smeagol and deagol were in a boat fishing in the river. it was Smeagol's birthday. Deagol saw somthing glimmer in the water, knew it was too small to be a fish put his hand in the water, grabed it pulled it out. Smeagol told Deagol to give it to him because it was his birthday, and he wanted it. Deagol said no, so Smeagol killed him. Ran away to the misty mountains, therfore, became Gollum [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Secret Fire · 12-11-2003, 10:23 PM

Eol, please read the whole post before posting, adn be sure to stay on topic (BTW, welcome to the downs). The discrepancy is more than likely due to the fact that the good professor JRRT had not yet prepared the Silmarillion for publication, and Christopher did his best to prepare it for this, but let's face it, he isn't JRRT.

Eol Telemnar · 12-12-2003, 07:10 PM

Sorry, I did not read, I only read the topic. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

12-11-2003, 12:44 AM	#2
Gashberz Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: San Diego, U.S.A Posts: 57	Im sorry i dont have an answer for you. I am currently trying to read the smillarian amd its like reading a dictionary. sorry that I am of no help. __________________ "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man´s flesh to eat!" -Uglúk

12-11-2003, 11:26 AM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, the Ring was lost for two and a half millennia after Isildur was slain, and he was slain in year 2 of the Third Age, so I think that Deagol found the Ring in the year 2502 of the Third Age (give or take about a year). That gives Gollum plenty of time to become corrupted. When the quote says "ere the line of the kings failed" it doesn't mean exactly when the line failed. Earnur, the last King of Gondor before Aragorn II Elessar, had been lost in the year 2050, when he never returned from a challenge issued by the Witchking. "Ere" is probably being used as a term denoting general area of time. To translate that quote into more "modern" English would probably thus result in something like: "...about when the line of the kings failed," not "...exactly when..." <font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:30 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ] __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-11-2003, 12:45 PM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I disagree somewhat with your logic, Finwe. "Ere" means "before" or "previous to," and since the date that you say the Ring was found is approximately 452 years after Earnur disappeared, I can only attribute the word "ere" to an error on Tolkien's part. <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:46 PM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-11-2003, 01:52 PM	#5
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,177	Since Tolkien originally placed the finding of the One Ring by Déagol much earlier (before the failure of the line of the kings, in fact) it's more than likely that the passage in the Silmarillion pre-dates the Tale of Years of the Third Age as published. Since Tolkien himself prepared the Tale of Years for publication, I think that we should take that to be the definitive source for the date of the Ring's discovery. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

12-11-2003, 05:04 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Perhaps the "ere" confusion was caused by Tolkien editing some things, but forgetting to edit other things, resulting in conflicting stories. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-11-2003, 06:34 PM	#7
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I agree that that is probably the most likely scenario. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

12-11-2003, 08:42 PM	#8
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	Woa, that's an easy one. Smeagol and deagol were in a boat fishing in the river. it was Smeagol's birthday. Deagol saw somthing glimmer in the water, knew it was too small to be a fish put his hand in the water, grabed it pulled it out. Smeagol told Deagol to give it to him because it was his birthday, and he wanted it. Deagol said no, so Smeagol killed him. Ran away to the misty mountains, therfore, became Gollum [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-11-2003, 10:23 PM	#9
Secret Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon State University Posts: 47	Eol, please read the whole post before posting, adn be sure to stay on topic (BTW, welcome to the downs). The discrepancy is more than likely due to the fact that the good professor JRRT had not yet prepared the Silmarillion for publication, and Christopher did his best to prepare it for this, but let's face it, he isn't JRRT. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

12-12-2003, 07:10 PM	#10
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	Sorry, I did not read, I only read the topic. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.