The Avari

[Kransha]

Alright, I know there a plenty of varying threads about elves, but there is, in my opinion, a subject about elves which seems not to have been touched upon and should be.

I'm speaking of the Avari, one of the elf divisions who refused the summons of the Valar and did not go to dwell eternally in Valinor. These elves, also called "the Unwilling," if I remember correctly, remained in the far east in the lands surrounding the Water of Awakening, Cuivienen. Now, I've heard that many of these elves were in turn corrupted by Melkor and became orcs, but I couldn't find any proof of this statement.

My question is somewhat multi-faceted. What exactly happened to the Avari? Where they indeed the progenitors of the orcish race? Did they, perhaps, remain on Arda later than the elves of the west, lurking around the Sea of Helcar and the far eastern mountains? Are they of any importance whatsoever or did they simply die out during the ages?

[Oroaranion]

I'm sorry that I cannot give an answer, but this leads me too a similar question that I have wanted answered for a long time.

What other races of people were there in Middle Earth, east of Mordor? There were the Avari and the Easterlings, but were there any others, and did they all fall under the dominion of Sauron?

[Firefoot]

Melkor caught Elves and enprisoned them in Utumno before Elves went to Valinor.

But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor littles is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darknesses of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put ther in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.

`-The Silmarillion, Chapter 3, Of the Coming of Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

Tolkein does not say if any specific kindred of Elves were captured by Melkor, so I would guess Orcs could have been a mixture of all the kindreds.

Melkor, I think, was capturing Elves before the Valar were aware of them. Once they learned the Elves had come, I believe Melkor stopped trying to capture them or scaled back considerably, being more concerned of the Valar waging war against him to protect the Elves.

Something else I question is why didn't Melkor turn all the Elves he captured later on into Orcs as well rather than making them thralls in Angband? Maybe he:

1) No longer had the power to do so
2) It was pointless as he had enough Orcs already
3) The other Elves captured later were not corruptable? (but this is a stretch)

[Kransha]

Well, that generally answers my question about Avari being progenitors of orcs, but the main focus of my query was to find out what happened to the eastern elves. As far as I know, there were also dwarf tribes that remained in the east. Were they all killed off or captured by Melkor (dwarf-orcs, now there's a thought; or better titled, the uruk-lows).

[NightKnight]

Concerning the dwarves that were in the east, I've come up with a theory. During the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, there is a race of Easterlings that are short, bearded and wield axes. Doesn't this sound like dwarves? Maybe they bred with the men that still lived out there (I suppose all of them didn't go west).
Also, both Alatar and Pallando should be hanging around over there.

[Noxomanus]

Now,those Dwarf-Men are an interesting thought! Perhaps,this is the reality. Dwarves may have been to stubborn to be forced to such interbreeding but their lack of women may have forced them to take human women for a wife. Where would such creatures go after death?Halls of Mandos or Eru? Who knows,they might have the choice like a Half-Elven. It frustrates me never to hear about the Dwarves of the East. We only know they existed,nothing more. I suppose they held their own against Sauron but it's of course possible they were destroyed,enslaved (to the slavelands of Rhun perhaps?) or tricked into Saurons service,lured by promises of riches and wealth. The Avari are another matter. It seems like Tolkien to have at least some of them surviving *somewhere* I can only suppose they were lesser Elves as they never saw the light of Valinor. But who knows what happened to them?

[Kransha]

Interesting things to remember about the dwarves that dwelled in the east...

Well, we know that there were 7 original dwarf fathers. One of them was Durin the Deathless, originator of Durin's Folk. Also there were the unamed fathers of the "Broadbeam" and "Firebeard" clans who founded Belegost and Nogrod in the Blue Mountains. There are still 4 dwarf fathers remaining. We are told (I believe in the Silmarillion), that those 4 were "born" in pairs in the far east and began two or more other unamed dwarf clans somewhere around the Water of Awakening or the eastern mountains. Who knows? There may still be remnants of a Moria-esque dwarf underground kingdom in the Orocarni Mountains.

So, in conclusion, there are at least 2 whole dwarf clans somewhere in the east. What happened to them? We also have the Avari and we couldn't forget the Blue Wizards, Alatar and Pallando. There have, I think, been several threads on the subject of the Blue Wizards who remained in the east, but no resolution about the dwarves and elves who lived "way out east", far from the rest of the world.

Also, what of the great beasts of Middle-Earth? The west, were LotR takes place, is only a small portion of Arda. What of dragons? It is most likely that the last great dragon, namely Smaug, was deceased during the War of the Ring, but couldn't there still be a few petty uruloki dwelling in the southeast or northeast lands of Arda? A few smaller, less imposing monsters of Melkor loosed from Angband?

Finally, what of Balrogs? Is it possible that another creature rivaling Durin's Bane might lurk in the east, terrorizing the Easterlings or some such thing? There are still a lot of Balrog deaths unnacounted for after the wars against Melkor.

[NightKnight]

I suppose they held their own against Sauron but it's of course possible they were destroyed,enslaved (to the slavelands of Rhun perhaps?) or tricked into Saurons service,lured by promises of riches and wealth.

It is said somewhere (I can't remember where) that during the Battle of the Last Alliance all creatures except the elves where on both sides that day, and among the dwarves those of Durin's house fought with the Alliance. Doesn't this indicate that there were at least some dwarves at Sauron's side?

[Noxomanus]

Quite probably yes.

I do think Dwarves wouldn't voluntarily serve Sauron. They had to be enslaved,or perhaps more likely, seduced. Sauron the Deceiver would likely find a way to make them believe they were only acting in their own profit while they actually became Saurons puppets.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

But as the third age of the captivity of Melkor drew on, the Dwarves became troubled, and they spoke to King Thingol, saying that the Valar had not rooted out utterly the evils of the North, and now the remnant, having long multiplied in the dark, were coming forth once more and roaming far and wide. 'There are fell beasts,' they said, ' in the land east of the mountains, and your ancient kindred that dwell there are flying from the plains to the hills.'

Hmm, does these elves mentioned by the Dwarves sound like Avari? Then again, Eol and Maeglin are definately Avari. It is said that the Green-elves are Avari too.

Now as has been told, one Lenwe of the host of Olwe forsook the march of the Eldar at that time when the Teleri were halted by the shores of the Great River upon the borders of the westlands of Middle-earth

Now these were a woodland people and had no weapons of steel, and the coming of the fell beasts of the North filled them with great fear, as the Naugrim declared to Thingol in Menegroth

I guess Dark Elves are pretty much scattered all over the place like gipsies?

[Lalaith]

A while back, some of us had a big Avari debate in the books section which you might find of interest.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ighlight=avari