"But One and not the Greatest"

[Angry Hill Troll]

When Frodo, Sam, and Gollum see the Army of the Witch King issuing from Minas Morgul, the text says that

So great an army had never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might; no host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the Fords of Anduin; and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth.

The point of the wording, I suppose, is to impress upon the reader just how much military force Sauron had amassed. But it raises a few questions of how well thought out his strategy was:

Given that Sauron was sending a greater army into the field at the same time, where was it going? Who was commanding it? It would make the most sense for Sauron to send his greatest force against Minas Tirith, which after all was the most populated and best fortified stronghold of his enemies, and also the closest to Mordor.

As it turned out, the force he sent wasn't quite enough to get the job done, once the Rohirrim showed up and Aragorn commandeered the fleet of the Corsairs.

So what was Sauron's greatest army doing? The only thing that seems even remotely plausible would be attacking Lothlorien, but as it turned out this would have proved pointless, since for Lorien to be overcome a supernatural force (e.g. Sauron in person) would be required.

And if the Witch King wasn't commanding the greatest army, who was? Clearly the WK was Sauron's most capable servant (as stated by Gandalf, and evidenced by the WK's being put in charge of the hunt for the Ring). So why wasn't Sauron putting his top lieutenant in charge of his greatest army?

Sauron seems to have given the good guys some breathing room by not putting all those forces to particularly effective use...

[Fingolfin II]

I suppose Sauron assumed that the Witch-King would be strong enough to overcome Gondor, with not only his great fighting power, but his power of fear over the Gondorians. So with the King of the Nazgul in charge of the most important battle, he could then divert his remaining forces to other places (i.e. Erebor), even though some places like Lothlorien could not be penetrated by mere orcs alone.

Sauron underestimated the strength of the Men of Gondor, and he did not take into account Aragorn taking over the Corsair ships. He thought that he did not need a large number to break through Gondor's gates and the terror of the Witch-King would be enough and he was right- partially. What must be noted is that the force Sauron used in the siege of Gondor was not small by any means, and still far outnumbered the forces of the Gondorians. So, as you said, Angry Hill Troll, the point in that quote you gave was to show just how many troops Sauron had under his command.

As always, it is the underestimation of an army that has been the downfall (or at least, the partial downfall) to the 'bad guys'. Morgoth underestimated the forces of the Elves in the Nirnaeth and 'as for the valour of Men, Morgoth took no account of as yet' (or something to that effect); Sauron underestimated the valour of the defenders of Gondor, he didn't think that Aragorn would take his Corsair ships, and he certainly did not think that his great commander would be defeated-

'He is watching. He sees and hears much. His Nazgul are still aborad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed him of his treasure re-made; the winds of fortune turning in our favour, and the defeat unlooked-for of his first assault; the fall of his great Captain.' (The Last Debate; Book 5- Chapter IX)

Saruman also underestimated the Ents and look what they did to him. An interesting thing in this quote is about the Nazgul "being abroad", no doubt commanding Sauron's other forces, being his most trusted servants. Alternatively, Sauron's 'greatest' army could have been held back in Mordor, for the time when Sauron himself was ready to come out and challenge the West (which he could do only with the Ring).

Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges, and the musterings of the long-planned war; and here the Dark Power, moving its armies like pieces on a board, was gathering them together.

So here we can see that Sauron was amassing his forces in Mordor, ready for the last, greatest assault on Gondor to destroy it utterly. However, this didn't happen, as Sauron's armies were defeated, as was his greatest Commander. Thus, the bulk of Sauron's forces were most likely gathered in Mordor itself, in readiness to destroy Gondor and the other free lands entirely.

[Lachwen]

...I always just assumed it meant that the greatest host was still waiting inside Mordor for their marching orders...

[Kuruharan]

A common interpretation of the line is that it refers to the army that marched out of the Black Gate and joined the army of the Witch King on the march to Minas Tirith.

[Morsul the Dark]

I always thought the Mouth of Sauron was his top Lt. ?

And Sauron probably had greater hosts coming from both the East and South

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Angry Hill Troll

It would make the most sense for Sauron to send his greatest force against Minas Tirith, which after all was the most populated and best fortified stronghold of his enemies, and also the closest to Mordor.

I'm not sure about that. I think the elves of Lorien were more populated and better defensively than Gondor. After all, the elves had been there for more than an age, most likely with a steadily increasing population. But in Minas Tirith, the bloodlines were weakening and the population declining.

It would make sense that Sauron would send a larger force against the wood-elves because they were a bigger threat. That is, they would have been, if they had gotten of their lazy butts and helped with the war. As it were, they sat there and watched Sauron waste three armies trying to assault them.

That was his key mistake. He spread his armies too much. If he had used his largest force, he could have easily crushed Gondor inspite of the Rohirrim and the Corsairs. He would have then taken back his ring, and only the will of the Valar could have saved the earth then.

[Rinfanawen]

Originally Posted by Gurthang
I'm not sure about that. I think the elves of Lorien were more populated and better defensively than Gondor. After all, the elves had been there for more than an age, most likely with a steadily increasing population. But in Minas Tirith, the bloodlines were weakening and the population declining.

For one, yes the Elves were increasing in number with age, but also many were leaving on ships across the sea. This happened quite often actually, for the Shirelings spotted Elves travelling through their woods a bit more times than a few, if I recall correctly. I'm sure that Elves of Lothlorien left Middle Earth just as often as those from Rivendell and Mirkwood. So the number would be down just the same.

It would make sense that Sauron would send a larger force against the wood-elves because they were a bigger threat. That is, they would have been, if they had gotten of their lazy butts and helped with the war. As it were, they sat there and watched Sauron waste three armies trying to assault them.

In my opinion, this was not really caused by the fact that the Elves were "lazy". I think that the Elves went through the same decision as the Hobbits and the Dwarves of Middle Earth. The battle was being fought on Man's ground. The Hobbits, as they more than often chose, wished to ignore all business outside of the Shire for that main purpose. It was outside of the Shire. The matters did not concern them.

This battle was fought against the armies of Men and Men alone...aside from a few small Hobbits. The Dwarves were not there either, because the matter did not involve Dwarves at that time. We cannot put all the blame on the Elves just because they happened to be a stronger force. The Elves made their choice, and they decided that it was not their battle to fight.

That was his key mistake. He spread his armies too much. If he had used his largest force, he could have easily crushed Gondor inspite of the Rohirrim and the Corsairs. He would have then taken back his ring, and only the will of the Valar could have saved the earth then.

Though this is a well though out point, Gurthang, there is no certainty that he would get his ring back. You must think that throughout this battle, Sauron's strongest armies were still within the walls of Mordor, as were two small Hobbits. Somehow Frodo and Sam seemed to slip by even Sauron's greatest. Now, think of how much easier it would have been if Mordor had been occupied by Sauron's 2nd greatest, while the best were out at battle. I think that Frodo and Sam still would have been able to make it...even if our heroes of the Pelennor Fields might have ended up being killed off and thus not able to destract the Eye at Frodo's defining hour at Mount Doom. Frodo still would have had a good chance at making it. But that's just what I think.

[Encaitare]

The Dwarves were not there either, because the matter did not involve Dwarves at that time.

Well, not at that particular battle, but if I remember correctly the Dwarves did their fair share of orc-killing while our heroes were running about trying to save Middle-earth

[Gil-Galad]

The Easterling attack on Erebor!

[NightKnight]

I don't think Sauron saw the need to send out all of his armies against Gondor. As has been said before, the army WK commanded outnumbered the gondorian one greatly, and the fear he would put into men was an extra bonus. Apart from that he had the corsairs to distract the people from the coast and he had sent an army over Cair Andros to ambush the rohirrim (which failed because of the druedain).
I don't think he thought WK could be defeated, that Aragorn would summon a long lost host, that the winds would turn, giving his enemies hope and speed, and that the rohirrim would be able to escape from the Cair Andros-army. So it was pretty much a bunch of lucky things that made Sauron lose that attack.

So great an army had never issued from that vale since the days of Isildur's might; no host so fell and strong in arms had yet assailed the Fords of Anduin; and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth.

He did attack on several points at about the same time. Three attacks on Lorien, one on Mirkwood, one on Dale/Erebor, one on Rohan, and he still had a huge army left to surround the attackers at Morannon. I think that one was the largest one, to protect himself from attack.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Well, when a nation decides to attack some other nation, they don't empty out their entire army. They just use how much they think they'll need. Gondor was weak, so Sauron just sent out enough orcs to overwhelm Minas Tirith. He was also attacking Erebor and Lorien, as well as several other parts of Gondor. To make sure Rohan didn't come to help, he blocked the path that Rohan could come through (though the Woses foiled that plan). I personally think that Sauron's plan was pretty flawless and good. It's just that the good guys had luck and stuff. I don't think that anybody in Sauron's place would have expected that the Oathbreakers would help Aragorn, that the Woses would decide to fight for the ones that hunted them, and that the ents would decide to fight after ages of doing nothing. They're just things that he neglected, as most people would.

[Gurthang]

I stand corrected, Rinfanawen. I had not thought where the ring was at that time in the story. As for the Elves, I didn't really mean they were lazy, I was just stressing the point that they didn't help outside their own borders. No disrespect intended.

But I still beleive that if Sauron had not spread his forces over five fronts(Erebor, Mirkwood, Lothlorien, Minas Tirith, Rohan), but instead had concentrated on one at a time, he would have had much more favorable results. His army was barely defeated at the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Had he added a few more thousand, the outcome might have been very different. If he rerouted even one of his other forces from the north, he could have easily destroyed Gondor.

Also, in the books it specifically says:

yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth

So there were other, larger forces being sent out at that same time. So I still think that the larger force would be sent to assault Lothlorien.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

There seem to be two interpretations here of
"yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth"

a---That there were larger armies sent elsewhere or kept in Mordor
b---That the army of the Witch King joined with a larger army (presumably coming from the Black Gate).

I've always read it to be option "b" above, given presumed logistical limitations of sending forces from Minas Morgul, though I suppose it's open to interpretation.

As for dwarves not involved in fighting in the war of the Ring, they were crucially so in Erebor.

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Rinfanawen

This battle was fought against the armies of Men and Men alone...aside from a few small Hobbits. The Dwarves were not there either, because the matter did not involve Dwarves at that time. We cannot put all the blame on the Elves just because they happened to be a stronger force. The Elves made their choice, and they decided that it was not their battle to fight.

In essence, this War was of course very much the Elves' matter: they started making Rings of Power and were lured into this by Annatar/Sauron. If they would have looked through his "Lord of Gifts" disguise, the One Ring wouldn't have been forged and this whole War of the Ring wouldn't have ben necessary.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

But I still beleive that if Sauron had not spread his forces over five fronts(Erebor, Mirkwood, Lothlorien, Minas Tirith, Rohan), but instead had concentrated on one at a time, he would have had much more favorable results.

Maybe you've got a point here. Several dictator in history have found out they couldn't fight on too much fronts at the same time without loosing eventually: Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm II, Hitler, Hirohito ...

[Kuruharan]

Just out of curiosity, could somebody point me in the direction of a reference that says that the Elven population was increasing or at least maintaining itself in the Third Age?

As for the armies marching from the Black Gate to join the army from Minas Morgul, note that there is no mention of Easterlings and Haradrim (with their handy-dandy oliphaunts in tow) marching from Minas Morgul. Indeed, I have a hard time imagining that Sauron would be able to keep anything but orcs there because Tolkien gives the impression that any men in the immediate area tended to go quite mad. Some troops came up from the south to join him, but it is likely that the large numbers of Easterlings and Haradrim that appeared at Pelennor were the same ones that Frodo saw at the Black Gate. Note Gandalf’s message to Denethor…

The isle (Cair Andros) has fallen. Another army is come from the Black Gate, crossing from the north-east.

Rinfanawen

think that the Elves went through the same decision as the Hobbits and the Dwarves of Middle Earth. The battle was being fought on Man's ground. The Hobbits, as they more than often chose, wished to ignore all business outside of the Shire for that main purpose. It was outside of the Shire. The matters did not concern them.

This battle was fought against the armies of Men and Men alone...aside from a few small Hobbits. The Dwarves were not there either, because the matter did not involve Dwarves at that time. We cannot put all the blame on the Elves just because they happened to be a stronger force. The Elves made their choice, and they decided that it was not their battle to fight.

While I understand what you are trying to say, and agree with it in a way, I also concurrently disagree with your statement.

It was not that Elves and Dwarves were indifferent to the affairs of the rest of the world. I think that Legolas puts it best.

’Now why did not we wish for some of our own kinsfolk, Legolas?’
Legolas stood before the gate and turned his bright eyes away north and east, and his fair face was troubled. ‘I do not think that any would come,’ he answered. ‘They have no need to ride to war; war already marches on their own lands.’

Everyone was under attack.

Next Point: While I agree with Gurthang’s overall strategic sense, I have to echo Tuor of Gondolin’s logistical considerations. I think that Sauron sent as many troops against Minas Tirith (both from Morgul and from the Black Gate) as he could afford to feed.

Third Point: I believe that there is a general misconception that Sauron’s strongest armies remained inside Mordor prior to the Battle of the Morannon. I think this may not have been exactly the case. Gandalf confirms that Sauron still possessed large quantities of troops at that time. My question lies in the area of what use Sauron was making of those troops. My understanding of the text is that Sauron had to essentially strip his land bare of troops in order to assemble the army that fought before the Teeth. My belief is that those troops were his garrisons and newly arrived contingents that had not been properly organized into a field army. While this may have created an army that was numerically greater than any other he put into the field; this was not a field army in Sauron’s original planning. It was an ad hoc amalgamation that Sauron gathered to meet an emergency.

This does not mean that I think that Sauron had shot his bolt in the war. It does mean that, conventionally speaking, the West had probably bought itself a respite of several weeks or even months by their victory at Pelennor. I think that Sauron would have gathered a new army (or two), but that would have taken some time. I also doubt that he would have stripped all his garrisons to do so. This brings the urgency (and brilliance) of Gandalf’s scheme to the fore. The last thing the West wanted was to have Sauron turn inward to regroup at that moment. By doing what they did, Sauron had to “empty his lands” and reduce his odds of catching Frodo and Sam (even though Sauron almost did without knowing how close he came.)

Final Technical Point: The troops that attacked Lorien came from Dol Guldur. Considering the fact that the troops that attacked the Woodland Realm were also from Dol Guldur indicates that (a) Sauron maintained a large army there (b) the Elves were not numerous in either place (c) all of the above. My personal belief is all of the above. I would assume that troops from Dol Guldur would qualify under the large umbrella of “armies Mordor sent forth” even though they were not arriving directly from there.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Kuruharan
"conventionally speaking, the West had probably bought itself a respite of several weeks or even months by their victory at Pelennor."
---------------------
Exactly. I think Gandalf somewhat underestimated the relative strength of the West after the Pelennor Fields. Given some weeks a) Cair Andros would be cleared b) significant reinforcements would come from Rohan (remember the rushed mobilization and forces left in Rohan for protection) c) South Gondor forces would have arrived. Despite Tolkien's views that the Western forces could not have ultimately prevailed, assuming the Ring was still thought lost, sunk in the ocean by The Council, etc. was at least a "balance of power" all that impossible to conceive, given the defeat of the Corsairs, and repulse and/or standoffs in Eriador and Rhovannion? Gandalf pretty much cancels out the intimidation of the remaining nazgul, and the oliphaunts are pretty much shot as a new force (apparently handled in much the way Alexander the Great did with Darius's chariots).

Plus the concept of an at least limited offensive, somewhat stonger and more cautious and creative then that necessitated to help Frodo would seem to have been possible, given the significant cavalry advantage of the Western forces, perhaps even a semi-blockade of Mordor. (Echoes of Noldor First Age strategy, but without a curse hampering the good guys)?

[Mithalwen]

I would have thought that the Elven population would almost certainly have been dwindling through the third age....because of various factors.... elves are immortal so they don't have the same biological imperative to reproduce that mortals do...and by transmitting life they diminish themselves... so they have few children .... only the earliest elves had large (relatively) families - Feanor being quite exceptional with his 7 sons.

They avoid raising children in times of strife and if a spouse is killed they may not take another... And I always got the feeling that the longer they spent in Middle Earth and the wearier they got the less likely they were to reproduce ......immortality is a big thing to "inflict" on another in those circumstances - the elves still regard death as a gift... I mean there are no mentions of Elf-children at Rivendell or Lorien are there? I know that doesn't mean everything since you also get the impression that Arwen and Galadriel (and her maidens) are the only elf women left and that clearly can't be true ..... I always wondered if the fact that Elrond's children all being unmarried when it was usual for elves to marry almost on reaching adulthood was partly due to a lack of potential spouses in that generation..

Thranduil lost 2/3 of his army at the last alliance and there could not for the physiological reasons be a baby boom .... Even given that Thranduil's folk were least likely to pass over sea I don't think the numbers would have recovered quickly ..... and the battle of 5 armies also caused losses ... Elsewhere I think the populations would definitely have diminished .... Lindon never recovered from the Last Alliance - I never got the impression that the havens was much more than a small outpost - so many leave ..... and still there are smaller conflicts..

Not scientific but this is my reading - I think the elves disengagement from the wider world is partly due to diminishing numbers ..... 4 communities alone remain 2 of which are surely very small indeed.....

[Gil-Galad]

The biggest chance for Elves would Be Lorien and Mirkwood, seeing they have the biggest of the elvish population in ME, not to mention there probaly stronger, Sauron wanted to distract them...but it failed with Battle under the Trees where Celeborn and Thranduil met in battle...i wouldn't mind seeing that in the movies...

[Angry Hill Troll]

Giving the Dwarves their due, Gandalf says the following in "The Quest of Erebor" in UT

Sauron could have done terrible harm in the North, while he defended Gondor, if King Brand and King Dáin had not stood in his path. When you think of the Great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale.