The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-15-2004, 10:52 AM   #1
Hookbill the Goomba
Alive without breath
 
Hookbill the Goomba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 6,153
Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Hookbill the Goomba is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Tolkien The need of Guidance.

If this has been discussed elsewhere I do apologise.

There was a theme that I knottiest while reading LotR recently. In almost every new area the company go to they have a guide.

For the first part of the Shire Sam is said to know this land quite well and so guides them to the extent of his knowledge. Then they are guided by the elves lead by Gildor. Then as they get close to buckland Pippin begins to show his knowledge of the land. Farmer Maggot guides them to Buckelberry, and then Merry to Crickhollow.

Merry again guides them through the old forest untill they are lost and have to follow Tom Bombadill. Tom again guides them out of the Barrow downs and they then come to Bree. Here they meet up with strider who guides them to weather Top and then on to Troll Shaw. From there Glorfindell seems to be acting as a guide to Rivendell. From Rivendell Gandalf takes them through Hollin and Moria.
After Gandalf's fall Aragorn guides them to Lothlorien where Haldir guides them to Calas Galathon.

I guess you could say that the Anduin guides them southwards, but that may be debatable.

Then Frodo and Sam are guided through the dead marshes and through Ithilian to Shelob's lair by Gollum. Then, Sam has to guide Frodo although he does not know the way. Then (Many 'thens' in this post) they are guided by the band of orcs until they have to go on their own up the mountain before they reach Sauron's road that (in much the same way as the Anduin) guides them upwards to the crack of Doom.

Don't think I've finished, I've not.

Then Gwihir the wind lord 'guides' them out of Mordor. On the journey home the company guides them until Isenguard where Gandalf once again takes the lead and guides them to the borders of the Shire. Then in the shire the sheriffs guide them for a short while.

At the End of the book Gildor again guides them to the grey havens. Then, once again, there is a none living guidance, the sea that takes Frodo to Valinor. Unless you count whom ever it was who was driving the boat.

Is Tolkien trying to make some statement here, something along the lines of, everyone needs guidance?

Any thoughts on this?

(I've probably spelt half of the names here wrong, do forgive me)
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once.
THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket...
Hookbill the Goomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 12:13 PM   #2
Imladris
Tears of the Phoenix
 
Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby.
Posts: 1,494
Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Well, without a guide one is lost unless they themselves know the way. If you yourself know the way, then you are guiding yourself.

What Tolkien is saying is that if you don't know the way, then you cannot "guide" yourself. If you do not know the way, then you need a guide, aka, someone who knows the way. If you don't have one, then you will wander aimlessly.
__________________
I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns.

Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 01:22 PM   #3
Tuor of Gondolin
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
Tuor of Gondolin has just left Hobbiton.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of it in quite that way. The basic reason seems to be that those who know the way would be too strongly and quickly tempted to use the ring (Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond, etc.). But Frodo and Sam do seem, as their journeys progress, to take an increasingly significant part in deciding how and where to go, even with their guides.
--------------------------
Council of Elrond: " 'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.' "
__________________
Aure Entuluva!
Tuor of Gondolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 03:10 PM   #4
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
How about a simple, practical explanation? As in our Middle Ages, paper (or its equivalents) and the written word or drawn picture are rare and expensive in Middle-earth. There are maps in Rivendell, Bilbo also copies some, but apparently the travellers don't have a handy-dandy fold-out map to take with them on the trip. Also, some of the areas they enter haven't been mapped by the Free People of Middle-earth, another problem for the Fellowship.

We tend to take maps for granted nowadays, as they are a cheap, throw-away commodity, but what wouldn't Frodo have given to have one! On the other hand, if all the dangers had been marked for them to see in advance, they might not have taken the same route, and the results would likely have been different.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2004, 03:12 PM   #5
InklingElf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 421
InklingElf has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to InklingElf
Surely a single person cannot navigate on their own, hence the great expanse of land mass that Frodo and much of the others followed.

Hookbill, I truly understand where you are coming from -- perhaps Fellowship is an imparative part of a long journey?
InklingElf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:59 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.