Question of Origins - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Phil The Balrog · 12-20-2001, 05:52 AM

Perhaps one of the most enchanting features or Tolkiens writing is the sense of depth behind his world. I just saw LOTR movie and even tho it only centered around the events in that relatively small amount of time, you totally get the feeling of a vast and intricate mythology. I have a few questions regarding this mythology:

1. Can someone (briefly or not, I like reading) explain Melkor, Morgoth, and Sauron's origins and natures to me? Who and what are they, where'd they come from, why, etc?

2. As i was reading these boards and other assorted LOTR material, I came across a being that appeared to be a God, capital G. I forget it's name, but is there a creator/supreme deity in Tolkien's mythos, and if so, how is it related to the lesser gods?

3. What is characteristic of each age? Meaning, why is it the First Age and what made it turn into the Second Age, etc etc. What are the characteristics and major events of the ages.

4. I was catching bits and peieces about different races. What are the Ainur, the Valar, and the Maiar?

Thanks, i'm a total LOTR newbie but i am obsessed with mythologies and histories so any help would be appreciated. This a very fascinating book cycle.

Telchar · 12-20-2001, 07:08 AM

Hi Phil - and welcome to the Barrow Downs [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll try to be short - the shortest answer would be: Read the Silmarillion - from what you tell, I deem that you're goint to love it - most of us do [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

1. Can someone (briefly or not, I like reading) explain Melkor, Morgoth, and Sauron's origins and natures to me? Who and what are they, where'd they come from, why, etc?

Melkor/Morgoth is the same! He is a ainu, who was among other created by the supreme creator at the beginning of creation. So is Sauron, but of lesser stature - Sauron was in earlier days the vassal of Morgoth - who in their respective ages would be equivelent to supreme evil.

2. As i was reading these boards and other assorted LOTR material, I came across a being that appeared to be a God, capital G. I forget it's name, but is there a creator/supreme deity in Tolkien's mythos, and if so, how is it related to the lesser gods?

In the beginning Eru who in Arda is called Iluvatar created the Ainur, the holy ones as offsprings of his thought. The Ainur men have offen mistaken as being gods - but they are not they are the Powers of Arda - The Valar. They have a people of lesser stature that followed them - The Maiar. Of these you already know Sauron, but also Olorin/Gandalf - Curumo/Saruman and the other Istari.

3. What is characteristic of each age? Meaning, why is it the First Age and what made it turn into the Second Age, etc etc. What are the characteristics and major events of the ages.

Before the 1st 2nd 3rd ages of the world there were countless ages where tha Valar created and ordered everything in preparation of the comming of the children of Eru, which are Elves and Men.

1st age conserned the War of the jewels - the Silmarils and ended with the downfall of Morgoth and the ruin of Beleriand

2 age Started with the Creation of the Island of Numenor given to the faithful men of Beleriand. The men of Numenor fell and on Saurons advise attacked the Valar in hope of gaining immortal life. Numenor was ubsurbed in the Sea and only few faithfull Nomenorean survived. the 2nd age ended with the Destruction of Sauron in the Last Alliance, where Isildur cut the finger of Saurons hand. In this age the Rings of Power were forged.

3rd Age - Here the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were established - Arnor dvindled - as did the power of Gondor - The 3rd age ended with the destruction of the One Ring.

4. I was catching bits and peieces about different races. What are the Ainur, the Valar, and the Maiar?

See above...

All in all this may raise even more questions - I can only emphasize that you read 'The Silmarillion' and after that 'Unfinished Tales'

Cheers T

Legolas · 12-29-2001, 09:40 PM

A further note on Melkor - the Ainur were "the primordial spirits who existed with Ilúvatar and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur." After the creation of Arda, many entered it to help/guide those in it. Fifteen of those that went in were notably powerful than the rest. Fourteen of the those became known as the Valar (or 'Powers of Arda,' they went on to establish Valinor), and the fifteenth was Melkor. If you are familiar with Lucifer in the Bible, it's kind of like that...he strayed from the 'good' path. The Ainurs who took form and entered Arda but were not as strong as the fifteen (though still immensely powerful) became known as the Maiar. I pretty much paraphrased most of this from the Encyclopedia of Arda - was a pretty good explanation there.

Examples of the Valar - Ulmo, Nienna (who taught Gandalf much), Manwë Súlimo
Examples of the Maiar - Sauron, the 5 Istari (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Pallando, Alatar)

12-20-2001, 05:52 AM	#1
Phil The Balrog Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 11	Question of Origins Perhaps one of the most enchanting features or Tolkiens writing is the sense of depth behind his world. I just saw LOTR movie and even tho it only centered around the events in that relatively small amount of time, you totally get the feeling of a vast and intricate mythology. I have a few questions regarding this mythology: 1. Can someone (briefly or not, I like reading) explain Melkor, Morgoth, and Sauron's origins and natures to me? Who and what are they, where'd they come from, why, etc? 2. As i was reading these boards and other assorted LOTR material, I came across a being that appeared to be a God, capital G. I forget it's name, but is there a creator/supreme deity in Tolkien's mythos, and if so, how is it related to the lesser gods? 3. What is characteristic of each age? Meaning, why is it the First Age and what made it turn into the Second Age, etc etc. What are the characteristics and major events of the ages. 4. I was catching bits and peieces about different races. What are the Ainur, the Valar, and the Maiar? Thanks, i'm a total LOTR newbie but i am obsessed with mythologies and histories so any help would be appreciated. This a very fascinating book cycle. __________________ -Yes, I'm Phil the Balrog.

12-20-2001, 07:08 AM	#2
Telchar Stonehearted Dwarf Smith Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 2,247	Hi Phil - and welcome to the Barrow Downs [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll try to be short - the shortest answer would be: Read the Silmarillion - from what you tell, I deem that you're goint to love it - most of us do [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] 1. Can someone (briefly or not, I like reading) explain Melkor, Morgoth, and Sauron's origins and natures to me? Who and what are they, where'd they come from, why, etc? Melkor/Morgoth is the same! He is a ainu, who was among other created by the supreme creator at the beginning of creation. So is Sauron, but of lesser stature - Sauron was in earlier days the vassal of Morgoth - who in their respective ages would be equivelent to supreme evil. 2. As i was reading these boards and other assorted LOTR material, I came across a being that appeared to be a God, capital G. I forget it's name, but is there a creator/supreme deity in Tolkien's mythos, and if so, how is it related to the lesser gods? In the beginning Eru who in Arda is called Iluvatar created the Ainur, the holy ones as offsprings of his thought. The Ainur men have offen mistaken as being gods - but they are not they are the Powers of Arda - The Valar. They have a people of lesser stature that followed them - The Maiar. Of these you already know Sauron, but also Olorin/Gandalf - Curumo/Saruman and the other Istari. 3. What is characteristic of each age? Meaning, why is it the First Age and what made it turn into the Second Age, etc etc. What are the characteristics and major events of the ages. Before the 1st 2nd 3rd ages of the world there were countless ages where tha Valar created and ordered everything in preparation of the comming of the children of Eru, which are Elves and Men. 1st age conserned the War of the jewels - the Silmarils and ended with the downfall of Morgoth and the ruin of Beleriand 2 age Started with the Creation of the Island of Numenor given to the faithful men of Beleriand. The men of Numenor fell and on Saurons advise attacked the Valar in hope of gaining immortal life. Numenor was ubsurbed in the Sea and only few faithfull Nomenorean survived. the 2nd age ended with the Destruction of Sauron in the Last Alliance, where Isildur cut the finger of Saurons hand. In this age the Rings of Power were forged. 3rd Age - Here the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor were established - Arnor dvindled - as did the power of Gondor - The 3rd age ended with the destruction of the One Ring. 4. I was catching bits and peieces about different races. What are the Ainur, the Valar, and the Maiar? See above... All in all this may raise even more questions - I can only emphasize that you read 'The Silmarillion' and after that 'Unfinished Tales' Cheers T __________________ Anar Kaluva Tielyanna.

12-29-2001, 09:40 PM	#3
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	A further note on Melkor - the Ainur were "the primordial spirits who existed with Ilúvatar and with Him created the world through the Music of the Ainur." After the creation of Arda, many entered it to help/guide those in it. Fifteen of those that went in were notably powerful than the rest. Fourteen of the those became known as the Valar (or 'Powers of Arda,' they went on to establish Valinor), and the fifteenth was Melkor. If you are familiar with Lucifer in the Bible, it's kind of like that...he strayed from the 'good' path. The Ainurs who took form and entered Arda but were not as strong as the fifteen (though still immensely powerful) became known as the Maiar. I pretty much paraphrased most of this from the Encyclopedia of Arda - was a pretty good explanation there. Examples of the Valar - Ulmo, Nienna (who taught Gandalf much), Manwë Súlimo Examples of the Maiar - Sauron, the 5 Istari (Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Pallando, Alatar) __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.