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Old 04-11-2007, 09:05 AM   #121
The Squatter of Amon Rűdh
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Pipe A lengthly monologue

Sorry to hark back to conversation past, but I've noticed that comments on that Sunday Times article have been posted by Michael Drout and Verlyn Flieger. It's a shame that Tom Shippey didn't join them, but you can't have the opinion of every professor in the world on one article.

I think that their comments bear careful reading. The Sunday Times reviewer, as is becoming all too common with that organ, has done just enough research to appear knowledgeable, but not enough to provide an accurate idea of his subject. Less forgivably, he spends half the article commenting on the literary failings of LR without reference to the book he's supposedly reviewing. This is as good an example as you'll get of an apology to the in-crowd for liking something that's out: Appleyard doesn't want to lose his grown-up, serious-reviewer credentials by approving something written by Tolkien, who rather tautologically wrote fairy-tales about Elves. Incidentally, I'm not sure that Hugo Dyson would have published his opinion in quite those terms, and I'm reasonably sure that he wouldn't have been entirely happy to see his words in a Times review. The deleted expletive descends to the coarse prudery so beloved of our dear scarlet press, and so symptomatic of the provincial, petit-bourgeois mentality that self-styled intellectuals take such great pains to renounce.

The Wagnerian reference is another giveaway: Wagner's is a name that automatically implies that those who invoke him are intellectuals who understand music. As is often the case, though, Appleyard's invocation of Wagner reveals a lack of understanding of both the composer and Tolkien, not to mention the real relationship between their works. I expect that Wagner here is used as shorthand for an operatic style of presentation (which is also the epic style of presentation, which predates opera) unless the reviewer is so badly informed as to think that Wagner actually invented those stories himself. All in all, it confirms my general impression that newspaper literary reviews tell one more about the reviewer than the work reviewed, which renders them useless save as a beginner's guide to being a pretentious bore.

Anyway, since better people than I have pointed out the deficiencies of that article there remains little more for me to say than that Michael Drout promises to post on his site his own critique of Tolkien's style, which, since M.D. actually knows what he's talking about, should be worth a look. This pointless babble from News International I can do without: what isn't obvious or derivative in it is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar
I do not read ANY of CT's middle Earth history because much of that material was rejected by Tolkien himself as it did not entirely harmonize with his inner vision.
There's no easy way to say this, but that rules out reading The Silmarillion as well. CRT put that together from the very material that yielded The History of Middle-earth, even writing some passages himself. There is no pure vision of the Silmarillion material endorsed by JRRT, and even what he rejected can only be inferred from his later revisions. Some parts of the HME were at one time or another under consideration by publishers; some of it had already been published; some of it is taken from lectures that Tolkien delivered annually to students. The old Fall of Gondolin was probably more publicised before 1977 than anything about Hurin, since it was read to the Oxford essay club (strictly speaking, a forum for academic papers) by its author. It's more complicated than Tolkien rejecting something and CRT publishing it later; rather JRRT left behind a lot of drafts, many of them incomplete, and little or no indication of what he wanted to retain or reject. Yes, the LR material in volumes 6-9 was definitely never intended to see the light of day, but even that is a stage in the evolution of a grand idea that never fully emerged. Part of the reason for that was that there simply wasn't a single inner vision, rather there were many, each of which informed particular stories or phases of development. The picture will never be complete, but that's no reason not to appreciate each fragment on its own terms, since each has value of itself. Moreover, since JRRT specifically appointed CRT to publish, withhold or destroy his unpublished works at his own discretion, we might regard JRRT's approval as given to all of the posthumous publications. I don't say that this is definitely the case, but it's one way of looking at things; in fact, all that I can say about this with any certainty is that HME contains most of Tolkien's best writing, both verse and prose; make of that what you will. With any luck The Children of Hurin will give a glimpse of that to readers who would never get through the History.

As for asking what Tolkien said, I consider it the first and most important step to finding a meaning: unless you know exactly what was said you can't hope to interpret what was meant. Meaning is an elusive enough beast even without the additional cover of misquotation and paraphrase.

On the 17th I'll be doing something; possibly I'll be trying to buy a copy of the new book, but more likely I won't. It isn't going anywhere.
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:27 AM   #122
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Appleyard is quite well-respected as a journalist, though - apart from taking the Murdoch dollar. I was surprised (as I've already mentioned on the Flieger thread - so I also apologise for referring to conversations/links past) how much of this article he'd actually lifted from the original AN Wilson piece in the Telegraph, back in 2001. Wilson did a biography of Lewis and does seem to be a Tolkien fan, albeit a critical one. Here, the expletives are not deleted. Interesting that the Telegraph was less prudish six years ago than the Sunday Times is today. The Wilson piece is much better, but then Wilson, although I often disagree with him, is very smart.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main...w24.xml&page=1
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Old 04-11-2007, 09:57 AM   #123
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wow!

Wow Man! Like, I had to read that twice!
The Silmarillion feels right. Refering to Strider as Trotter feels wrong.
The continuity of the Silmarillion. There's an inter-connectedness and a common diction that is recogonized, a word usage, diction, that is matured, grown more serious and plausible, where at other times in the more detailed, incomplete renditions, which I still find illuminating at points and troubling at others, in the Unfinished and the Lost Tales, there is a change in tone and diction that makes me feel seperated in a way. I cannot verify all my opinions, and I challenge men such as your self to debates, and want to provoke attacks on myself, not because I believe I will always win, but because sometimes, I know I will lose. And that I find that very thought provoking and it compels me to think in new paradigms.
I know about CT and the Silmarillion buddy. You see, I have a bit of a mean-streak. And whatever respect I had for one died with the other.
And: I enjoyed your subtle cheapshots at the end. Very respectful criticism, just perfectly within the bounds of the acceptable. What can I say? I tell myself that it would only be vanity at the most that would compell me to reference books, check indexes, and make perfect qoutes and accurate refrences to base each expostulated supposition, which becomes, in effect, presupposition, thanks either to my virtuous humility, or my scholarly laziness. You decide. Either way, it is the missing scale in me belly. Aim at it my good man, aim at it!
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:07 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalaith
I was surprised (as I've already mentioned on the Flieger thread - so I also apologise for referring to conversations/links past) how much of this article he'd actually lifted from the original AN Wilson piece in the Telegraph, back in 2001. Wilson did a biography of Lewis and does seem to be a Tolkien fan, albeit a critical one. Here, the expletives are not deleted. Interesting that the Telegraph was less prudish six years ago than the Sunday Times is today. The Wilson piece is much better, but then Wilson, although I often disagree with him, is very smart.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/mai...nw24.xml&page=1
Quite. I would suspect that, should that little bit of "journalistic appropriation" be pointed out in arenas that care about such things, Mr. Sunday Times flack might find himself in a bit of a tight spot. But then, I'm not thoroughly familiar with the ethics of Murdoch papers, being more familiar with those of the Lord of Black Harbour--no, um, it's Cross Harbour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squatter
This pointless babble from News International I can do without: what isn't obvious or derivative in it is wrong.
But very sadly he's achieved what yellow journalism is all about: he's got highly respected scholars replying to him, attention all over the internet, and fans in an uproar. In the twisted values of rags, he's got his minutes of fame. His article has drawn more readers to the online paper. He's made the advertisers happy. Frankly, he sounds very much like some members of online forums who think that scruffles are what it's all about. And the more we reply to this fellow, the more his puppet masters will crow. Although I commend Squatter for not naming him. Cleverly done!

Laliath, your link here isn't working for me, to the Wilson piece, although I read it when you linked elsewhere.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:19 AM   #125
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"I do not read ANY of CT's middle Earth history because much of that material was rejected by Tolkien himself as it did not entirely harmonize with his inner vision."

Newsflash: CJRT edited the Silm. sometimes heavily, sometimes lightly. Some sections [thingols death are pure CJRT fan-fiction]. You want tolkien's 'purest' silmarillion? Better go buy HoME X & XI, as they are:
  • JRRT's last revised drafts of the Silm material
  • written after the LotR, his craft only got better w/ age
  • have much more material than the more 'remote' compressed Pre-LotR summaries CJRT favored in his SilM.
Ultimately every Silmarillion reader who wishes to dive deeper than CJRT's Silmlite has to go to the virtually unedited [in terms of the texts being altered or polished or redacted] volumes of the History.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:47 AM   #126
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The same Christopher chosen by JRRT himself to be his literary executor and the same Christopher who his father decided was the one person most qualified to handle his unfinished work?

I have to wonder who would have been better qualified to write The Silmarillion?

I'm quite happy that the father's choice, being one he was happy with, was the right choice and am also quite happy to enjoy Christopher's lifelong work. None of us can say with certainty what Tolkien did and did not want including from his jumble of drafts and notions in The Silmarillion, but we can say that Christopher would know what to include better than any of us could.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:55 AM   #127
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Thanks for pointing out the dud link, Beth. I've fixed it.
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Old 04-11-2007, 12:01 PM   #128
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Just seen over on the Tolkien.co.uk forum that Foyles bookshop in London have broken the embargo & have copies of CoH on sale now.
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Old 04-11-2007, 11:51 PM   #129
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Amazon.com interview with Alan Lee - with pics http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/061...d_i=1000072721
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Old 04-13-2007, 12:06 PM   #130
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New pics from CoH

Middle column, about half way down the page.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....ainment/books/

And a bit from the Independent: http://comment.independent.co.uk/lea...cle2390841.ece

'pre-teen market'

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Old 04-13-2007, 03:29 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squatter
Anyway, since better people than I have pointed out the deficiencies of that article there remains little more for me to say than that Michael Drout promises to post on his site his own critique of Tolkien's style, which, since M.D. actually knows what he's talking about, should be worth a look. This pointless babble from News International I can do without: what isn't obvious or derivative in it is wrong.
Well, Drout's critique of Tolkien's style is up. http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04...-style-at.html
Not sure I agree with him actually. I don't think the descriptions of landscape/nature are at all excessive, & am I the only one who actually likes the fox?
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Old 04-13-2007, 03:57 PM   #132
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Quote:
Better go buy HoME X & XI, as they are:
JRRT's last revised drafts of the Silm material;
written after the LotR, his craft only got better w/ age;
have much more material than the more 'remote' compressed Pre-LotR summaries CJRT favored in his SilM.
Erm- the vast bulk of the 1977 text is from the post-Lord of ther Rings period: the Grey Annals, the Annals of Aman, and the early- and late-50's phases of revision to the Quenta Silmarillion. CRT only reverted to earlier material when there simply wasn't anything later to work from.

CRT's "Silmlite" (as you sneeringly call it) also has structure and pacing, something the Professor had lost in his piecemeal rewritings. (This is also a major flaw in this forum's Billy Idol* Silmarillion project).

* More, more, more!
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:25 PM   #133
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Quote:
CRT's "Silmlite" (as you sneeringly call it) also has structure and pacing, something the Professor had lost in his piecemeal rewritings.
Structure and pacing are subjective things.
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Old 04-13-2007, 04:35 PM   #134
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Times Review

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle1649664.ece

Very positive - but what else would one expect by one of the authors of The Ring of Words?

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Old 04-13-2007, 04:42 PM   #135
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We had this one before?

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/b...cle2390834.ece
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:19 PM   #136
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A friend of mine is the collection development specialist at a large library system. She already has the book in her hands. Apparently the publisher is already shipping out the book to some large library systems. This is the regular edition put out by Houghton Mifflin.

I've also read on another website that there is a strange variant that has already surfaced in a few samples of the regular edition....one section of the book is bound upside down. Some book people love those kind of strange quirks and try to search them down. Not me. I'll take one bound in the regular way so I can read it.
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Old 04-13-2007, 05:24 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age
I'll take one bound in the regular way so I can read it.
Hehe...I agree. That's sort of the point, as far as I'm concerned .


Oh, and someone seriously needs to slap me upside the head. I've been looking at Alan Lee's cover art for months (it's on my desktop, for goodness sakes) and I just now noticed that Turin's sword is black.
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Old 04-13-2007, 06:20 PM   #138
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Who's Drout? Never heard of him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Well, Drout's critique of Tolkien's style is up. http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04...-style-at.html
Not sure I agree with him actually. I don't think the descriptions of landscape/nature are at all excessive, & am I the only one who actually likes the fox?
I want to clown on this drout fellow who criticizes Tolkiens writing. He's not a member is he? If he's not does anyone mind if I find out who he is and then write a scathing denuciation?
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Old 04-13-2007, 09:59 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maglor
Oh, and someone seriously needs to slap me upside the head. I've been looking at Alan Lee's cover art for months (it's on my desktop, for goodness sakes) and I just now noticed that Turin's sword is black.
Goodness I had not even realized he was holding his sword, I sort of saw it as an extension of his cloak (am I going blind?)

Then what is he resting his hands on, you slow poke?

Silence you!!

Anyway, it is true... what scene in the story of Turin do you think it represents? It looks to me like Turin is leading his men into battle... but what battle, and which men? we could say he was a "prolific" leader... meaning that he lead so many people... charismatic guy.
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Old 04-13-2007, 11:01 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neithan Tol Turambar
I want to clown on this drout fellow who criticizes Tolkiens writing. He's not a member is he? If he's not does anyone mind if I find out who he is and then write a scathing denuciation?
He's one of the best informed & most insightful Tolkien scholars around. He co-edits the journal Tolkien Studies & teaches university courses in Tolkien's work.
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Old 04-14-2007, 02:07 AM   #141
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Bits 'n' bobs on the Beeb

Open Book Sunday 15th @ 4.00pm (available on the 'Listen again' option after broadcast:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/arts/ope...openbook.shtml

& Loose Ends today @ 6.15 - interview with Alan Lee: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/comedy/looseends.shtml
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Old 04-14-2007, 03:57 AM   #142
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I think they're doing something on Front Row next week as well. (Friday evening radio 4 arts review)
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Old 04-14-2007, 06:09 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Well, Drout's critique of Tolkien's style is up. http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2007/04...-style-at.html
Not sure I agree with him actually. I don't think the descriptions of landscape/nature are at all excessive, & am I the only one who actually likes the fox?
What's interesting about this entry by Drout is that his critique does not seem to support his general comment. He wonders if Tolkien could have achieved the same effect with fewer words--and then qualifies that wonder with the wonderfully inane comment from the Emperor in Amadeus. And then he quibbles over a few small points, but largely lauds the cited passages.

There would be two ways to consider the claim about excessive landscape description: the wordiness of particular passages (which he counters here) and the dwelling upon landscape so that it features constantly and continuously in the narrative. I suppose he tries to address this latter point when he compares Tolkien positively to Donaldson, but largely he does not addresss this claim.

So, his point that Tolkien's style is meant to create a mythic feel in modern language isn't, to my mind, drawn out well in this entry.

I really have to say, however, that I laud his efforts to bring Old English to a wider audience, especially with those podcasts. I haven't listened to any yet, but I recognise that setting up such a feature speaks highly to his efforts. Imagine setting up podcasts on the Downs, of passages from Tolkien's created languages.

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Old 04-14-2007, 10:23 AM   #144
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Drout's missed something - there is a strong tradition in British writing (and Art and Music) to bestow the very earth itself with a personality - Tolkien is following in the footsteps of others, and others would follow him. This is why we are given such lengthy descriptions of place, to establish Middle-earth itself as the primary character in this work, and it is the protagonist more than any single character is. Tolkien's works on Middle-earth are ensemble pieces in terms of 'human' characters, but the one constant that everyone fights so hard to dominate, control or save is the land itself. On many occasions it also heaves itself and reasserts its dominance (the sinking of Numenor, the storm on Caradhras, the fog on the Barrow Downs etc).

If you want to find other living landscapes look to Wordsworth, the Brontes, Thomas Hardy, Ted Hughes, Vaughan Williams, Turner, Constable, Goldsworthy...and if you want to read more about this look to Peter Ackroyd's Albion.

Remove the living landscape from Tolkien's work and you will be left with something very different, and with a very different, even meaningless, drive and purpose for all those who live there.

So Drout's missed a trick there. And not even every critic criticises the extensive writing about the land - Ackroyd acknowledges it for one!

And I can't let Drout's criticism of the 'archaic' language pass - a lot of it is anything but odd to me, as I'm used to people who often use 'archaic' English; growing up in Lancashire and living in Yorkshire you hear a lot of 'theeing' and 'thouing' every day, plus some very odd words. I knew right away what Attercops were. Thrawn is not far away from Thrawp. As someone points out in his blog, not everyone speaks the same 'brand' of English.
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Old 04-14-2007, 10:59 AM   #145
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I don't think he's really missed it, Lal. He's just been, I think, rather rhetorically clever at handling the complaint about landscape description.

After all, once he identifies the complaint about too much description as merely as matter of too many words--a strawman argument--he quite niftilly undercuts that with the Emperor's silly request. Then Drout compares two passages which for the most part he praises highly and even lauds them as suitable for a Hemingway style. He hoists the modern critics on their own ... um, criterion.

I think the one or two small points about wording which he objects to are really intended similarly in the strawman vein, to show that they can easily be dismissed, so that in the end he is able to claim that it is not easy to dismiss or critique Tolkien's style.

I suppose it must be his habit of lecturing--starting out with a, shall we say, hot air balloon, pumping it up for analysis, only to demonstrate how it can be deflated. A bit of a pedagogical trick I would say. But as I said, it leaves the larger question of the role and place of landscape description unexamined.

I'd agree that Tolkien certainly needs to be read alongside Hardy. I was ever so tickled to discover that 'kine', the Old English plural for cow, was still used in Yorkshire in Bronte's day.

Oh, and, I had always had the sense that 'thrawn', because it can also mean "contrary, peevish, perverse, sullen, unpleasant" as well as "twisted" and "crooked", was doing a little bit of foreshadowing for the ents.

But this, as I say, is likely Drout's habit of getting his students to refute his points, thereby actually defending the opposite of what he initially purports. I suppose I shall have to read more of his blog to say definitely though.
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Old 04-14-2007, 11:08 AM   #146
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Adam Tolkien on CoH

On the Reviews section 'From the Publisher'

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Children-Hur...ion/0007246226

Found via Tolkien Gateway. VVV interesting...

And I've just got an email from Amazon that my copy of CoH has been despatched

EDIT:

What are we to make of Adam's comments here:

Quote:
Alan was commissioned in 1990 to create the
first-ever illustrated edition of The Lord of the Rings to mark Tolkien's
Centenary, and his 50 watercolour paintings were to prove more influential
than anyone could possibly have imagined, as Alan then spent five years in
New Zealand working as conceptual designer with John Howe for the Peter
Jackson trilogy.
&
Quote:
(It might be compared to a sort of literary
Director's Cut, the long version of the story assembled from all the best
footage available, though my father probably wouldn't welcome the
filmmaking comparison!
)
Obviously the family are at war again over the movies

Last edited by davem; 04-14-2007 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 04-14-2007, 12:35 PM   #147
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Mine's been despatched too!

Bb - don't you think there are enough strawman type arguments though? I get a bit fed up with defending Tolkien myself! And no doubt people like Drout do too! I'm finding myself reading these reviews of CofH expecting to read the usual unpleasantness and the usual accusations and make the usual defences. The existence of critics like Ackroyd who can mention and use Tolkien as an example without feeling any need to make a snide aside suggests that there are some critics outside the Shippey/Flieger specialist academics who can accept Tolkien as a part of culture and give him some respect!

Liking that Adam Tolkien quote about his father and the films - very tongue in cheek about all the folk who amp up the rumours about family rifts over the films Maybe they'll be quiet now?
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Old 04-14-2007, 12:49 PM   #148
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I would like to be able to take the two film references from Adam Tolkien as a very positive sign. It appears that Adam may well be in the same place Christopher was three decades ago. The fact that he cites Lees work with Jackson by name is positive. The fact that he makes a joke about his fathers feelings for film also shows some very welcome openness.
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Old 04-14-2007, 01:30 PM   #149
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Just seen on the Tolkien.co.uk forum that the words of CT quoted on Adam Tolkien's statement is from the Preface of CoH - & the guy who posted it is the translator of the Croation edition.

EDIT

I found CT's words interesting:

Quote:
`It is undeniable that there are a very great many readers of The Lord of
the Rings for whom the legends of the Elder Days (as previously published
in varying forms in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and The History of
Middle-earth) are altogether unknown, unless by their repute as strange and
inaccessible in mode and manner. For this reason it has seemed to me for a
long time that there was a good case for presenting my father's long
version of the legend of the Children of Húrin as an independent work,
between its own covers, with a minimum of editorial presence, and above all
in continuous narrative without gaps or interruptions, if this could be
done without distortion or invention, despite the unfinished state in which
he left some parts of it.
& Adam's unambiguous statement:

Quote:
The words are one hundred percent J.R.R. Tolkien's,
Its clear that CT is aware that the postumous works he has so far given to the public have a reputation for being 'strange & innaccessible'. Can we take this to imply that CT feels he has not achieved what he set out to do - make his father's great work (The Sil) accessible to the general reader - & especially to many of those who Love LotR & TH? Is this, perhaps, the real reason that he has prepared CoH for the public - he wanted the general reader to have a glimpse of his father's work outside of LotR & TH that is 'accessible'?

Or am I reading too much into CT's statement?

Last edited by davem; 04-14-2007 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 04-14-2007, 02:14 PM   #150
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Oh, not fair! Mine is still awaiting dispatch...
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Old 04-14-2007, 02:15 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Mine's been despatched too!

Liking that Adam Tolkien quote about his father and the films - very tongue in cheek about all the folk who amp up the rumours about family rifts over the films Maybe they'll be quiet now?

Gah sinceI have ot work on Tuesday and can't go up to Lunnon.... your saying htat the book has been dispatched has incited me to visit Amazon ..and spend the money saved on the deluxe edition on pre-ordering Mr Baggins and "investing" in the hardback 20th anniversary editionof UT - which I love.. and could I wait for Mr Baggins? No of course not ..so I have 3 lots of delivery charges.....
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Old 04-14-2007, 02:31 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen
Gah sinceI have ot work on Tuesday and can't go up to Lunnon.... your saying htat the book has been dispatched has incited me to visit Amazon ..and spend the money saved on the deluxe edition on pre-ordering Mr Baggins and "investing" in the hardback 20th anniversary editionof UT - which I love.. and could I wait for Mr Baggins? No of course not ..so I have 3 lots of delivery charges.....
The '20th Anniversary edition' is very nice - good quality & matching the recent LotR 50th & Sil hardbacks (as well as the new 70th anniversary Hobbit with fold out maps & such. Only irritating thing is that they insist on calling it the 20th anniversary edition when its actually the 26th anniversary. (I bought UT on the day it was published in 1980 & this one came out last year).
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Old 04-14-2007, 02:42 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
The '20th Anniversary edition' is very nice - good quality & matching the recent LotR 50th & Sil hardbacks (as well as the new 70th anniversary Hobbit with fold out maps & such. Only irritating thing is that they insist on calling it the 20th anniversary edition when its actually the 26th anniversary. (I bought UT on the day it was published in 1980 & this one came out last year).

Well I am my second pb edition so I can justify a hardback at Ł12..... Ideally I woul dlove everything in HB but..... Home it seems would be about Ł400 I think
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Old 04-14-2007, 07:13 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Its clear that CT is aware that the postumous works he has so far given to the public have a reputation for being 'strange & innaccessible'. Can we take this to imply that CT feels he has not achieved what he set out to do - make his father's great work (The Sil) accessible to the general reader - & especially to many of those who Love LotR & TH? Is this, perhaps, the real reason that he has prepared CoH for the public - he wanted the general reader to have a glimpse of his father's work outside of LotR & TH that is 'accessible'?

Or am I reading too much into CT's statement?
No, that's exactly the case. Christopher views this book as a bridge for the ordinary reader from the Lord of the Rings to The Silmarillion, and felt that the general public could use at least part of his father's prized First Age legendarium in a form less 'rebarbative' (his word) than The Silmarillion. He was also partly motivated by the perception that, in the wake of the films, 'Tolkien' and 'Lord of the Rings' had become nearly synonymous, although his desire to publish a complete Narn dates back many years. (This is straight from the horse's mouth, BTW).
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Old 04-14-2007, 07:52 PM   #155
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Forgoil and such

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lalwendë
Bb - don't you think there are enough strawman type arguments though?
I would have thought that such a dedicated and public scholar of Tolkien could have presented a more powerful defense against the charge of wordiness, excessive description, dependence upon landscape. Bringing in Hemingway rather defeats his earlier claim about presenting a mythological style. However, one can still have high hopes for the entry on heroic speeches.

What I am curious to know is whether CoH will have the style of The Silm, of LotR, or of its own unique style.

Also, I am not satisfied with the pitifully small number of avatars. I would hope that more will become available, especially of Nienor.
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Old 04-15-2007, 12:19 AM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli
No, that's exactly the case. Christopher views this book as a bridge for the ordinary reader from the Lord of the Rings to The Silmarillion, and felt that the general public could use at least part of his father's prized First Age legendarium in a form less 'rebarbative' (his word) than The Silmarillion. He was also partly motivated by the perception that, in the wake of the films, 'Tolkien' and 'Lord of the Rings' had become nearly synonymous, although his desire to publish a complete Narn dates back many years. (This is straight from the horse's mouth, BTW).
But does CT feel he has 'failed' in what he set out to do - make his father's Sil accessible? We had The 77 Sil, presented without notes & background analysis/info, & that is seen as 'difficult', & we've had UT & HoM-e with notes & analysis by CT & they are viewed as even more difficult. CoH seems to be CT's final attempt at making his father's work available to the general reader. So, does he in some way feel that he has 'let his father down' in that the stuff he has given us so far has in many eyes the reputation of being either difficult or boring (or simply 'unreadable' )?

It also occurs to me whether some of us fans haven't contributed to that impression, with our in depth discussions & references to 'HoM-e vol 6 chapter 17.....' stuff which very few Tolkien fans actually know or have access to.

I'd hate to think that CT did feel he had in some way 'failed' his father. I think I've read everything CT has published of his father's work, & I'm immensely grateful for CT for the work he's done.
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Old 04-15-2007, 04:04 AM   #157
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Take your Prozac & read on.....

Here we go - Sunday Times 'review'. http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle1639071.ece
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Old 04-15-2007, 04:50 AM   #158
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Techy he is. Maybe his advance copy wasn't one of the signed ones?
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Old 04-15-2007, 05:16 AM   #159
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Maybe it displays a certain level of contempt on behalf of the Sunday Times as this guy is not even one of the 'literati', he's a schoolteacher (in music, not even English!) who works as an 'adviser' for an LEA and writes in the reactionary journal also known as the Times Educational Supplement (that teachers only buy to read the job ads...). They could have at least deigned to give it to someone with some knowledge to review...

Typical Sunday paper fodder for the ever-smug Tarquins and Jocastas of Islington who will enjoy scoffing at this while filling their faces with focaccia and organic whatnot this morning...
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Old 04-15-2007, 05:31 AM   #160
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Hey Lal do you think it would have got into the Sunday Sport for Mikey and Britney the Manchester Chavs to understand or care about it, whilst eating left over pizza and kebab from last night, and opening the first beer of the day (well it wern't in my copy that I nicked ). Joking aside, wasn't this to be expected, isn't it always the same, some nobody trying to sound clever and arty by way of making it in to the 'literati' and acception into the 'Dead from the neck up Club'
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