tactical discussion, countering balrogs

[Celebaglar]

I found a post about the tactical ways of destroying the mumakil. I like that thread, and afterreading the silmarillion, i decidedto make a new one. With that said, the balrogs of morgoth were incredibly powerful. But the tactics of countering them depends if they could pick their form. Didn't Ungoliant choose to be a spider? What i want to know is can a balrog have chosen their form, and how would they be countered on the battlefield?

[obloquy]

Two words: ICBMs.

[Lindolirian]

Originally Posted by BolT 2 Fall of Gondolin

Rog and his men leap even upon the coils of the great serpents, and come at those balrogs and smote them greivously and batter them into nought, or catching at their whips, wielded them against them, and they tore them, even as aforetime they had torn the Gnomes. And the number of Balrogs that were slain were a marvel, and a dread to the host of Melkor, for ere that day, never had any Balrog been slain by man or elf.

Basically, call up an incredibly strong Noldo with a gargantuan hammer and watch while he beats on them.

In the event that one fails to get Rog back from Valinor, you can always try my personal favorite: tell them that they have no wings (or unable to fly) and watch as they "prove you wrong" by flinging themselves off a cliff.

[Celebaglar]

haha, but the point is, they really do have wings

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Silmarillion and LOTR class Balrogs are large, deadly, and have mid-ranged weapons (whips) and short ranged weapons (blades).

So the ideal way to kill them is to be in the mountains, on some high cliff that you can throw them off.

Luring them to mountains doesn't seem to be hard, they seem to be drawn to the high peaks. Just lead refugees on a mountain pass, and a Balrog will come. Then, all it takes is one being who has seen Valinor, using some leverage to knock the brutes over the precipice.

Make sure there isn't a huge lake below ... because the Balrogs will live.

But, if it's a fountain ... they'll die. Apparently.

Ecthelion drowned Gothmog in a fountain ... of course, Gondolin was in a mountainous region, and there may have been a cliff involved, it may have had sheer, steep walls that Gothmog couldn't just slime his way out of. That explains why Ecthelion couldn't get out either ... that and swimming in a suit of armor.

Perhaps the fountain of Gondolin was more like a really big well or reservoir.

Anyway, from a tactical point of view ... all it takes is a sword to parry blows and an indeterminable amount of strength to fight with the Balrog until a suitable cliff can be found.

[Makar]

Why would it be that a Noldorin Prince seems to have been a better match for a balrog than another Maia?

[Celebaglar]

What reason had the maia to be fighting the balrogs, the noldor were not suited, they just came across the noldor.

[Lindolirian]

The Balrog yelled, and fell forward, and the fire of his being was extinguished in the Fountain, and he perished, along with Ecthelion, who, steel laden, sank into the depths, and so perished the Lord of the Fountain, after fiery battle in cool waters.

Keeper: This quote from the Fall of Gondolin has always made me think of the Fountain as a deep well because I can't imagine a great Elf like Ecthelion drowning in two inches of water. It is clear that it was deep enough to quench the weaking embers of Gothmog and drown and armour laden (not to mention rather tall) Elf.
In all seriousness, the most tried and true way to kill a Balrog has been casting him from a great height, but that's not always and option. Ecthelion killed Gothmog by stabbing with the spike of his helm, which I find downright hilarious. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only other descriptions of Balrog deaths are Glorfindel's and Gandalf's which were both done in by a great fall. Gothmog is the only one who gives us evidence that Balrogs can be killed by a physical wound which implies that their spirits are more tied to their bodies than Sauron's. Just ask Luthien and Huan about that one.
So the trick is either to overwhelm them by numbers (Rog and his House), impale them (Ecthelion), or toss them off a mountain.

Now if each of these fail, I'd say just send in a MOAB

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Aside from ICBMs (MIRVed or not), MOABs, and lone fighters, you can kill Balrogs with an absurdly large army of Maiar and Valinor Elves.

Probably except those that will hide in inaccessible caverns deep underground.

[Essex]

I usually find that about 15 hits of the Balrog with a 'bolt of the valar' from Gandalf usually does the trick. And as long as Idrial is there to bump up gandalf's health now and then there's no problem.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Celebaglar

What reason had the maia to be fighting the balrogs, the noldor were not suited, they just came across the noldor.

Celebaglar brings up a good point: fire-retardant suits are absolutely necessary. This, as Tolkien points out, was why the Elves were able to bring down so many in The Fall of Gondolin. Gondolin was the center of all fire-retardant suit manufacturing, however, so once it fell there was no longer an abundance of this special Elven armor. I believe Rog's chestpiece had a name, but it's not coming to me at the moment. Maybe someone else remembers.

[lord of dor-lomin]

If a fall can kill a Balrog, why didn't Durin's Bane die when he and Gandalf fell a million miles down from the bridge?

I mean, just think of how fast they'd be going after falling that far. Hitting water going that fast should kill you, right?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by lord of dor-lomin

If a fall can kill a Balrog, why didn't Durin's Bane die when he and Gandalf fell a million miles down from the bridge?

I mean, just think of how fast they'd be going after falling that far. Hitting water going that fast should kill you, right?

I think that lord of dor-lomin is correct regarding 'falling kills balrogs.' I assume that a fall, though even from a great height, can only wound not destroy a Balrog. Nor can they be drowned easily. I would say, seeing the examples provided, that the Balrogs must be seriously wounded before these other means of death are available.

Though not very obvious from the book, obviously Gandalf gives the Roggie more than a few paper cuts and spells (lightning bolts, fireballs, something?) before he casts him into ruin on the mountain.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by alatar:

Though not very obvious from the book, obviously Gandalf gives the Roggie more than a few paper cuts and spells (lightning bolts, fireballs, something?) before he casts him into ruin on the mountain.

I'm not sure that fireballs would to much good against Balrogs, but I think you have the right idea.

In the examples above, there seems to be a trend that you can physically hurt a balrog. (Falls, magic spells, helmet spikes...) It would make sense then that you could injure it enough to remove spirit from body. After all, that is death. The more pain inflicted, the farther apart a beings physical and spiritual parts move. It would probably take awhile, but it seems very possible to me that a balrog could simply be beaten to death.

Now, doing that before it kills you is the hard part.

[obloquy]

It's news that Balrogs are physically vulnerable?

[the phantom]

Terminal velocity for a human falling with his legs and arms stretched out is around 120 mph. That's pretty much as slow as you can fall.

Balled up- 200 mph

Maximum recorded free fall speed without any special equipment- 321 mph

That is really fast.

There is no doubt that such a fall would kill a person on land. Falling out of Celeborn and Galadriel's flet would likely kill someone.

Water is a different story.

Yes, it's true that water is more like a solid at high speeds (think skipping stones- or airplanes). I've gone water skiing before and yeah- when you try to flip and wipe out at 50 miles an hour you're going to skip a couple times and probably get a couple bruises, but it's not that bad. It's definitely possible to survive a 100 mph fall into water.

There was a jet pilot who bailed out at 10,000 plus feet and survived the dive into the ocean.

So no, the fall into the water did not have to kill or maim Gandalf and Durin's Bane.

But I bet they got a wicked welt, especially if they belly-flopped. Ouch.

[Celebaglar]

Why would gandalf call Durin's Bane "Flame of Udun" when Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Celebaglar

Why would gandalf call Durin's Bane "Flame of Udun" when Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun?

He wouldn't have, if what you say is true. It's not though. Balrogs had plenty to do with Udun (Utumno).

[Celebaglar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

He wouldn't have, if what you say is true. It's not though. Balrogs had plenty to do with Udun (Utumno).

[from the FOTR]"You cannot pass" he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. "I am a wielder of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. Dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You can not pass."

Please sir, I am not ignorant. If you need proof of Gandalf saying this, it is in the chapter "the bridge of khazad-dum".

And what does the balrog have to do with Udun?

[obloquy]

I didn't say Gandalf didn't say it, I said that if what you say is true ("Balrogs had barely anything to do with Udun"), he wouldn't have said what he said. As you've unnecessarily proven, however, Gandalf did say that. Therefore your claim that Balrogs had little to do with Udun is incorrect.

[Gurthang]

I agree with Celebaglar on this one. Udun was the land between the Black Gate and the Plateau of Gorgoroth. The balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not Sauron, and likely would never have gone to Mordor for any reason. Even besides that, Durin's Bane had been asleep in Moria long before Sauron set up his stronghold within Mordor. So what would the Balrog have to do with Udun?


(Just to clarify: I'm not saying that it doesn't have anything to do with Udun, I just don't see any reasonable reason that it would.)

[obloquy]

Udun is Sindarin for the Quenya word Utumno, which was the name of Morgoth's original subterranean stronghold.

[Gurthang]

Well, there's that reasonable reason I was looking for. Thanks a bunch, obloquy!

Oh yes, one thing I would certainly do if confronting a Balrog: Ask him if he had wings or not, just so I'd know before I died.