The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-27-2014, 12:03 PM   #41
Mithalwen
Pilgrim Soul
 
Mithalwen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,916
Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.Mithalwen is lost in the dark paths of Moria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pervinca Took View Post
Thanks for the clarification. Does it actually say that mortals could visit Valinor, and stay there for a short time? I have a gut feeling that a sojourn in Valinor itself, however brief that might be, would be necessary for full healing. Perhaps the Ringbearers might choose to go there when ready to die. (All conjecture, of course).
Since Gandalf was a Maia of Irmo, my guess would be that they might go to Lorien for a little while which was probably the place to deal with bad dreams and memories, but that Eressea might be the most congenial location for most of their soujourn where there would be mainly folk who knew Middle Earth and was perhaps not as high falutin' as Valinor.

I don't think the effects of Frodo's injuries can be underestimated. Sometimes it is having to keep on going that keeps you going. My mother faced her terminal cancer with great courage and the only time she broke down was when she was briefly in remission and not having treatment. She coped so well with facing death it waa awful to see her struggling with life almost, yet when her symptoms returned she coped with surgeries, more chemo, infections stoically. To return to Middle Earth, the only example I can think of of a similar wound (other than Aredhel's fatal one) is Celebrían. Even she, with her great ancestry and knowing that leaving might well mean, definitively parting from her children, can not bear to remain.
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”

Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

Last edited by Mithalwen; 05-27-2014 at 01:28 PM.
Mithalwen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2014, 01:02 PM   #42
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,058
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithalwen View Post
I don't think the effects of Frodo's injuries can be underestimated. Sometimes it is having to keep on going that keeps you going. My mother faced her terminal cancer with great courage and the only time she broke down was when she was briefly in remission and not having treatment. She coped so well with facing death it waa awful to see her struggling with life almost, yet when her symptoms returned she coped with surgeries, more chemo, infections stoically. To return to Middle Earth, the only example I can think of of a similar wound (other than Aredhel's fatal one) is Celebrían. Even she, with her great ancestry and knowing that leaving might well mean, definitively parting from her children, can not bear to remain.
Very insightful, Mith. Of course Melian, too, after the death of Thingol, had had enough of Middle-earth and somehow made her way back to Aman, specifically to Lórien. She also left her kin and people behind.

I find it interesting to look at Frodo and Gandalf as opposites in the effect that the trials and wounds, physical and spiritual, of both, ran different courses after the destruction of the Ring and the fall of Sauron.

Gandalf had been bearing a great burden ever since his arrival in Middle-earth: how to bring about Sauron's permanent defeat. The chapter on the Istari in Unfinished Tales describes his ordeal by saying Gandalf "suffered greatly, and was slain". When the War of the Ring was over, Frodo made the remark:

Quote:
'Pippin, didn't you say that Gandalf was less close than of old? He was weary of his labours then, I think. Now he is recovering.'
ROTK

Frodo is also relieved of his crushing weight when the Ring is gone; yet his spiritual and physical discomfort grows until he feels he must leave Middle-earth to escape it. I think a lot of that really is due to his sense of ultimate failure regarding the Ring: that he had not himself thrown it into the Fire, and still in some level of his mind, wanted it back. In many cases, health follows will: a good outlook and positive emotions can hold physical pain at bay, or at least lessen it. Frodo did not have the benefit of that himself.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2014, 04:27 AM   #43
Pervinca Took
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
Posts: 5,035
Pervinca Took is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Quote:
In many cases, health follows will: a good outlook and positive emotions can hold physical pain at bay, or at least lessen it. Frodo did not have the benefit of that himself.
Perhaps he had it, at least to some degree, once he had actually made the decision to sail. That was a positive decision to do something about his suffering, to take the best path open to him. Tolkien said that it was after his last grievous illness - in March, I think? - that his mind was made up. Also, he left before the October illness could recur. That is even spoken in an earlier draft: "I'm going now, before the wound returns."

Tolkien does speak of some positivity - "if Sam thought he was lucky, Frodo knew that he was more lucky himself ... he took to a quiet life, writing a good [or was it great?] deal, and going through his notes." I think he used the near-completion of the Red Book as a focus. Sam did remark "Well, you've kept at it, I must say."

There was also, reputedly, much coming and going between Crickhollow and Bag End. I always took that to mean that Frodo visited Crickhollow as well as Merry and Pippin coming to Bag End, but I might be wrong.
__________________
"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always."
Pervinca Took is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2014, 05:23 AM   #44
Lotrelf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
Lotrelf has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
The darkness wasn't permanent, though. It left no lasting damage in the Blessed Realm.
One final question- What about the Trees, did they ever recover? If not, how can the effects of Morgoth's darkness be said temporary?

Another question just popped in: In The Silmarillion, at one point, Professor says that whenever Elves were to give any message or something by Valar they were given dreams or visions. In LotR, Frodo often sees visions or dreams. His Elvish nature is also the reason he leaves for the Undying Lands. Is there any connection?
__________________
A short saying oft contains much wisdom.
~Sophocles
Lotrelf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2014, 06:51 AM   #45
Zigûr
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Zigûr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
Zigûr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Zigûr is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotrelf View Post
One final question- What about the Trees, did they ever recover? If not, how can the effects of Morgoth's darkness be said temporary?
The Trees never recovered. After Yavanna retrieved the fruit and flower which would become the Sun and Moon, "then the Trees died, and their lifeless stems stand yet in Valinor, a memorial of vanished joy."

The reason we don't consider Aman to be Marred like the rest of Arda is because unlike the rest of Arda the matter of Aman is not combined with Morgoth's spirit, something he did in Middle-earth. So the Trees were destroyed, but they and the land at large were not actually corrupted.
__________________
"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir."
"On foot?" cried Éomer.
Zigûr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2014, 08:28 AM   #46
Lotrelf
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 265
Lotrelf has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zig0‹4r View Post

The reason we don't consider Aman to be Marred like the rest of Arda is because unlike the rest of Arda the matter of Aman is not combined with Morgoth's spirit, something he did in Middle-earth.
Would you please elaborate explaining this?
Quote:
So the Trees were destroyed, but they and the land at large were not actually corrupted.
Is it also because the Fruits of the Trees covered the entire Arda with their light- night and day, and even Morgoth feared them.?
__________________
A short saying oft contains much wisdom.
~Sophocles
Lotrelf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:53 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.