Lonely Star: Fanfiction/RPG discussion

[Mithadan]

Then I shall! In the meantime, are you going to use your "saved" spaces Pio? Mith is still a touch woozy from his injuries but is eager to get moving again. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[piosenniel]

I deleted my saved spaces - and am working on a post now which will be up soon.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Let me suggest two possible ways of resolving this. I prefer approach #2 which I think strengthens the story.

Approach #1: Cair Andros would work, but we'd still have to tie up the loose ends. Leave the hobbits along the banks, not the island. We have no boats so we'd be stranded otherwise.

All of the hobbits would eventually travel north of Cair Andros: the Stoors, 500 miles north; the Harfoot, 700 miles; and the Fallohides, 800 miles.

The banks near Cair Andros would need to be a temporary hiding place for the hobbits. Meanwhile, Gandalf, accompanied by Cami and a few hobbits, would go down to Minas Anor, presumably for supplies.

According to the early part of the story, that room was definitely inhabited by hobbits. The entire rescue and the hobbits could disappear into thin air if the clues were not left for the Star to find, and the bas relief not made. Plus, the front of the story would not fit with the back end at all, if the thing was left hanging with no explanation.

The hobbits and Gandalf would rent and stay in that old 'cellar' a day or two. The clues would be left there when they leave. After they leave, the roof fall in, and it would be deserted. How else would you explain things still being there in the middle of a city thousands of years later?

Approach #2: To tell the truth, I like this approach a lot better, but it involves later editing of the fanfiction. We could agree to revise the first part of the fanfiction. I actually think this would make the story stronger. Let's face it. The earliest parts are going to need a fair amount of editing, the later ones much less.

At the beginning of the story, have Cami tell the Star to sail north along the Anduin looking for clues to hobbit history. If you were looking for hobbit history this is definitely where you'd start. Cami would know this.There were never any hobbits in Minas Anor, not in our story or in Tolkien. We'd come down to Minas Anor to look at the archives and meet the king only after we found the first clues. I'd be glad to take the existing posts and make the changes for this scenario.

Then at the very end of the fanfiction, you could just time jump to the place in the river where the Stoors go, sail up a bit further and let the Harfoot out, and last the Fallohides where you tearfully say goodbye to Cami, or else push her off the boat. You might run into one or two folk but the Anduin was hardly rush hour in the year 950 this far north.

Then time jump out of there any where you want to go. We don't have to "explain" the presence of those clues on the banks of the Anduin since the hobbits were definitely going to that area. We'd do the simple hobbit drop of in the RPG, and revise the fanfiction later.

What do you think?

sharon

`

[Rose Cotton]

What's wrong with walking? We've been stuck on a ship for forever. I would think it would feel good trek upon solid ground.

I'm really getting into the Silmalarion now. The only problem is now I'm on the fall of Gondolin and I keep expecting to see one of our Lonely Star people show up. Oh well. At least I know they were there.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I honestly would prefer a drop off near where we're going since we're talking about the end of the story. It would give some feeling of closure.

But the real problem isn't whether we go by ship or walk. We could do either.

It's explaining and understanding those early clues in Minas Anor. Otherwise the front half of the story and the back half are totally out of sync, and the reader is left scratching his head as to why and when there were hobbits in Minas Anor.

It's like a beast that has a zebra head and a giraffe behind. They don't fit.

If anyone can suggest other solutions, I'm game. I think editing of the beginning of the fanfiction is actually the best choice.

sharon

[piosenniel]

Sharon -

There is really nothing to resolve! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I was simply throwing out suggestions for resolve of the problem. Mithadan has an actual plan in mind, so let's run with that. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

*shakes up her can of river blue spray paint and sprays a lovely design on the mast*

[Mithadan]

One problem with Option 2, Child. The Falls of Rauros. Our fleet can't get past that point in the river so you are walking partway at any rate. Also, the scenery from Rauros going north isn't too pleasant between the Emyn Muil and the swamps to the East and the mouths of the Entwash to the West. Another option is that we take you up the Isen as far as we can and you pass through the Gap of Rohan before turning North. Or we could go the Minas Anor route; I guarantee that I can get you ships to carry you as far as Rauros. Your call.

BTW, how did the ships that carried the Dale/Lonely Mountain/Mirkwood delegations get past Rauros in Audience? I missed that (rapidly jots down notes for critique session).

[Bêthberry]

Dwarves are better with their feet, Mith, than with their pens/ keyboards. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Bethberry ]

[piosenniel]

The Dale/Mirkwood/Lonely Mountain portaged their baggage around the falls and picked up a ship on the other side. (Another advantage to the vast networking of the DTA - Dale Tradesmen's Association!)

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pat,

I knew the editing would fall on our joint heads so didn't want to commit us to such work without some discussion or warning.

Mith---As far as where the drop off is, let me check the map. You mean we can't go over the falls in a barrel like Niagra? Oops, that won't work. They're going in the wrong direction! Let me look at the atlas and get back to you.

Meanwhile, I'll try to post the memorial and Ancalimon's explanation tonight. Ancalimon will be apropriately vague about the Anduin, as he generally is.

Pat--I had a scene where Urken acknowledged Al-Gareth, since we've only got till tomorrow to meet with the king. BTW, who is the King? Dare I ask??

sharon

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

*opens her bottle of white-out*

I live to edit!

Regarding the falls - we would have to trade the swan ships for salmon ships and leap up the falls to make it northward.

Hey, here's an idea - we make a huge net that can carry all the Hobbits and sweet-talk the Eagles of Manwë into carrying you all to your desired destinations.

No?!

Back to the maps . . .

**** As to the King, I think that is Mithadan, bag of cheese doodles in hand . . .

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ok, Mithadan, as long as I don't have to troop back down to Minas Anor and scatter clues around, I'm happy. How about the Isen in the year 950? I figure Gandalf will be with us, so we should be alright.

Once the hobbits were on foot, we could cut across Rohan and skirt around the edge of Fangorn. Hey, Cami might see an Ent if she keeps her eyes open! And then cut up and follow the Anduin north, having the clans leave one by one. Gosh, she could live in the north of Greenwood near the Enchanted River. It should be alright for about 100 years, or so. (When the spiders come, the hobbits will clear out.) There should be Elves and Woodmen there, right?

Mith, does this sound doable?

sharon

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Mithadan]

*Munch, munch. "It if I the King Eleffaw Tewecompar, Word of the Wealmf of Gondow and Awnow. [cough, choke]"

[Child of the 7th Age]

Where is Southwest Airlines when I need them?

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

How safe do you think Fanghorn is? Er...., not very, I know. Surely, if I survived Gondolin and Numenor, I'll be alright here. Won't I?........


(Cami reconsiders her choice and opts to become a hobbrim living in paradise.....)

Some King!

sharon

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[piosenniel]

We'd never make it on the airlines - too much weaponry! hmmmm . . . how about borrowing something from the Middle-earth Airforce?

Back to reality, [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] - Are we editing out the Minas Anor stuff altogether? Or are we somehow figuring out how to drop a few hobbits there.

It's the River Isen (Angren), then?

Back to the map . . .

Is there any way we could drop you off in Eriador and you could make your way west to the Anduin? The Hobbits could ooh and aww over what a nice place it looks like and want to come back to it?

We can enter the Gulf of Lune, and get you as far as the Hills of Evendim.

[piosenniel]

He waved off her questions and set his head upon the turf. In moments, he had fallen asleep.

Mithadan, you are asleep, again!

[Birdland]

Hi, sorry this is so late in the conversation, but I'd thought I'd throw my opinion in. After all, everybody's got one. (An opinion, I mean.)

As for the drop off: aren't Hobbits known as "wandering people"? At least for the first few 1000 years of their history. They're nomads! Drop them off a little past Minas Anor and let them wander. It'll do 'em good. If it takes them 50-100 years to branch off and semi-settle in the regions they were known for, that's no big deal. Who says they have to immediately be plopped down in Mirkwood or The Vales, or anywhere else? After all, that's what our ancestors did.

Second, regarding the little room: Archeology teaches us that cities start out small, and are built out and up. Look at the excavations done on any ancient city. You find a top layer, then a second layer, then a third, etc., etc. That little room at the beginning of the Third Age could have been buried long ago as Minas Anor grew. That's what I was picturing, anyway, when the scene came up.

Same with the bas-relief. It may have been carved by some ancient Numenorean artist to commemorate what he remembered from the Locks of the Faithful. But time, changing tastes, and vegetation led to it being forgotten and covered.

So leave your clues, and let time take care of the rest.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Bird--

You make several good points about cities being built upon older ruins, and that this would explain the presence of an old, buried room or an ancient leftover bas relief. Also, the idea of hobbits wandering aimlessly about for some time.

I have thought long and hard about this, and have come up with the following.

1. Gandalf (that wasn't a typo) will take the hobbits to the Third Age, about 950. We'll be taken along the Anduin as far as the falls and then let out. Clan groupings will scatter in different directions. The Stoor and Harfoot clans are welcome to wander about aimlessly for as long as they want to.

Cami will be with one of the Fallohide clans, specifically the Tooks, and they will head due north. That particular clan will number about 40. Gandalf will be with them, at least initially.

The Tooks will indeed wander about, once they get to their desired spot. This Fallohide group will spend its summers in the mountains near Rivendell and its winters in the northern part of Greenwood (which is becoming Mirkwood) as long as the spiders don't get too bad. That should give Gamba plenty of woods and Elves.

If the Fallohides walk there, they should cover the 750 miles in about 3 months (less than 10 miles per day is realistic). Do you think I dare have a herd of wild ponies on Meneltarma to take a few with us? Cami really wants a pony and cart, even if the other hobbits don't have them. After all, she is a wise woman and should get some perks.

Minas Anor clues : The bas relief was, as Bird suggests, a leftover from the late second age. In the fanfiction, we will make sure it is located on a crumbling wall which was presumably a building knocked down in the earlier war. It was crafted by one of the Faithful who saw the hobbrim in the rescue. Remember that Mithadan asked the Faithful to pledge secrecy about the hobbits. The poor artist who made this had no idea he was looking at a special kind of hobbit. He thought the hobbrim were something totally different.

The room by the river that we found was inhabited for a short time by a few of the Stoors who headed south towards Minas Anor in 950 T.A. They only stayed a little while there, since they didn't like living among all those men. It was a pretty tumbledown place, and, when they departed, it was deserted, and left alone. Maybe the big folk weren't very nice to them, since the hobbits seem to have cleared out fast and left a few of their belongings.

If anyone sees problems with this, let me know. Otherwise, Cami will pack her bags and get one of those "Learn Sindarin Fast" books. Plus, she'll pick up some Orc repellent.

sharon

[piosenniel]

*licks her thumb and pages back to Fonstad's map on pg 88-89*

Get the ships ready, Mithadan! We're back on the Anduin . . .

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

Do you think I dare have a herd of wild ponies on Meneltarma to take a few with us? Cami really wants a pony and cart, even if the other hobbits don't have them. After all, she is a wise woman and should get some perks.

Hmmmmmm...how about a pony and travois? Maybe it took the Hobbits a few hundred years to invent the wheel. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

BTW Cami - If you take off with those Hobbits 100s of years ago, then Pio, Mith and I meet you at the beginning of the Fourth Age, does that mean that you are your own Great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother?

Is that considered incest in some way?

[Rose Cotton]

Born in the Third age. Live through to the fourth. Then back to the First. Skip back over to the Third so you can live to be your own ancester.

Let's not make this story more confusing then it is.

I like wandering. Like I said before walking is a good idea. Rose is sick of stupid boats.

Which clan of hobbits is Gamba going with. Asmuming he's going with us of course.

[mark12_30]

I think we can realistically find some ponies shortly after we are dropped off-- or buy them from Rohannish sorts of folks. Bringing a herd all the way from Meneltarma seems strange.

But maybe there'd be one or two that fled the waves and got high enough. The queen didn't make it but maybe a few ponies did. And the Hobbrim wouldn't need them.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Regarding being my own ancestor......Cami's heart is still breaking over Maura. She has no intention of being her own ancestor, or anyone elses. As to Rose, I am giving her strict orders that she is welcome to marry an Elf, a man, a shapechanger, or an Ent--but no hobbits!

Pio, yes, we're back on the Anduin. But we get to see the Falls this time.

BTW, one way or another, I'm getting a pony!

Camelia Goodchild, who has now cornered the market on Orc spray in order to guarantee our financial survival

[Child of the 7th Age]

Rose,

Sad to say, us sensible Harfoot gals will now be living with a passel of Fallohides, Tooks to be exact.

We'll have to keep them in line.

sharon

[Child of the 7th Age]

AwtK has taken up my posting time for this last day. I promise to work on the memorial service and Ancalimon's speech this afternoon. Off to work. sharon

[mark12_30]

Hey! If you like elves and woods, then who else would you pick to hang out with?

Geez, Azra, Nitir sure can be annoying sometimes. You and I will have to keep HER in line.

If we can't find any horses or ponies, then I don't mind walking, especially if we get to walk thru some woods. But I'm NOT sleeping in ANY more caves.

--Gamba

[Rose Cotton]

Well from what I know the Fallohides wern't the hobbits who liked to live in holes so I think we'll be above ground for the most part.

You mean Rose can't even marry a hobbit? How do we know she's going to be her own ansester. She could be totaly unrelated to herself which I know makes no scence at all.

Rose has come this far because of her love for her own race. She is not falling in love with anyone from another race.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Rose Cotton ]

[piosenniel]

EVERYONE

Let's start thinking about the process to bring this to it's conclusion.

Can we list, preferably at some time, in order, what we need to get done:

1.)memorial service - in progress

2.)? healing time for hobbits (anybody need to work through some trauma issues with their characters?) A lot or a little time?

3.) Anyone need private talks with Ancalimon or Idril or whoever before the choosing? Will this be where we cover the plan of where and when we are taking the hobbits?

4.) Ulmo visit and the Choosing - we will need some sort of lead in to this won't we?

5.)The Wedding/exchange of rings ceremony, gift of quilt and big fun party

6.) Fond farewells hobbits/hobbrim

7.)Idril/Tuor leave with Khelek and Veritas on board back to the West. A number of the Elven ships leave

8.) the Star and the Elven Hobbit Transport ships leave for wherever/whenever

(At this point I'm thinking we still have the crystal, since we will need to get back to our own time period. Kali and Daisy will go with us since I believe we had at one time posited that the Time Crystal would be in his and his family's safekeeping)

Are we looking at any sort of adventure/disaster/close call at this point or is it short smooth sailing?

9.) The hobbits are duly deposited and another tearful round of FINAL farewells takes place *sniff*

10.) Mith, Pio, Bird, Levanto, Kali,Daisy and the Star sail back to where Kali and Daisy are going to reside (Meneltarma?). We all transport to the fourth age, then Kali and Daisy are put into a skiff with the crystal set for them and transport back to their time period.

11.) Some short wrap-ups should occur to let the reader know a little of how the lives went on.

Can everyone look this over and add their two cents worth (yes, I've used that denigrated phrase!)

Copy/paste it with your own inclusions and deletions or make a new one up completely.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pat,

This is a great list. I need to think about it more. But didn't you forget something? What about that celebration that the happy couple never got? Are you going to repeat public vows or just have a big party? Remember, we have a present for you two.

sharon

[piosenniel]

Right!

*pats her pockets for the ring*

I know I put it here somewhere!

I'll just go back and put that after the Choosing. Sound ok?

[Child of the 7th Age]

More comments on that great list....

As soon as people finish posting their eulogies, I will have Ancalimon stand up and tell the hobbits about the choosing. Also, he will tell the hobbits to make sure all the orphans get adopted and taken into families. I'll write that sometime tomorrow. He'll give the hobbits a few days (game time) to decide.

I know Helen has some scenes which involve her characters struggling to decide which way to go.

Pio, do you want to do the scene where Daisy makes her decision to become a hobbrim? Maybe she would have come to you to discuss it?

Also, there's a scene or two between Gamba and Cami, including one where Cami compares Meneltarma with Middle-earth to give Gamba an idea of what his alternative is.

Can Mithadan be Ulmo? Also, what are those knives for in Mith's last post?

On the day of the party, Ancalimon will talk with Cami about where she and Rose will be going and what she must do. Then, he'll give her a surprise gift of a pony which he has had sent over from Valinor on one of the Elven ships. (Do you think my pony is immortal?)

Won't the Man and the Elf begin discussing where they're going after the quest? What about Bird? Is she going to begin thinking about searching for roots?

I wasn't thinking of another disaster, but with Mithadan and Piosenniel around, you never know what will happen.

Oh, yes, after the choosing, Angara should be appointed by Ulmo as 'guardian of Meneltarma.' She'll stay there and guard the island against any nasties, and also get to play with the children.

Bird could do that too, but somehow I doubt that is her cup of tea!

Kali and Daisy will reside on Meneltarma. Since they are definitely both under age by hobbit standards, they'll need to be 'adopted' by different hobbrim families. Maybe Andril should adopt one of them?

sharon

[piosenniel]

Is there a particular reason we are cramming the picnic, memorial and the talk on the choosing into one day?

It seems to make short shrift of the grief brought out in the memorial service, as if we're just ticking off items on a 'things to do list'.

It seems more natural to me if we put off the choosing talk til the following game day - make it early in the am and then we can spend the day talking about it. I can do the Daisy/Pio dialog. Other hobbits can talk this decision over with friends and family. it will be a frightfully big decision for most of them. If we dump it on them in the same day as the memorial, the poor dears won't get any sleep at all!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pat,

You have a good point. We can definitely wait in terms of game time. Do you want me to do the scene of Ancalimon's explanation real time tomorrow, or wait for the weekend, or even Monday? Let me know if you have a preference. sharon

[piosenniel]

Oh great! I just sent a PM to Helen thinking she had put that message on the board! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

When would you like to put the Choosing speech on the story?

I'll be gone all day tomorrow, and have to work the weekend and Monday. You can put the speech on any time, I'll save a space for the Daisy dilemma. As you said, Helen has some posts of her characters working through the decisions.

Is everyone done saying their piece about the fallen?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pat (and Helen),

Sorry about that mix-up. I added an earlier scene between Gamba and Cami way back on the ship. I had to put it into Helen's box, since that was the only space. Then I started to do that post, but realized I'd forgotten to shift back to Sharon. So I erased, shifted, and reposted.

I'd planned to be on today, but that's how it goes!. I'll reserve a space and try to get the choosing speech by Analimon up this weekend. Also I'll write up the other two. See just below.

I plan on doing at least three scenes before the actual choosing ceremony:

1. Ancalimon's explanations to the hobbits of what the choosing is.

2. Gamba comforts Cami; Cami offers to adopt Gamba if he chooses to be a hobbit.

3. At Gamba's request, Cami talks to him about what Middle-earth is like, how it compares to Meneltarma.

Helen, is there anything else immediate you can think of before the choosing itself?

BTW, Helen mentioned to me she's on travel Sat. night through Thursday, but will have limited web access on Sun and Monday only. She also intends to post on Sat.

I will block in my posts, plus save lots of spaces in Helen's name. We'll leapfrog if needed and do the best we can.

Pat, Mith--if you need us to change something, just let us know.

Helen--Can you give me some idea of what you'll be posting for Gamba and Phura at the choosing, especially since you'll be out of town? Are there others you'll be singling out? Cami may need to respond to some of those posts. Pio will speak for Daisy before and during the ceremony. I'll try to coordinate with Rose for Cami and Rose. I'll also do one general post.
describing the hobbits choosing.

When does Ulmo/Mith get to wave his magic wand, and make this happen?

Boy, Daisy is going to look strange after this! I wonder how Gamba will relate to Phura and Loremaster.

Do we go immediatly into the party, or is that the next day.

Good thing, Cami chooses to be a hobbit. Otherwise, Gandalf would have to get her a seahorse!

sharon

[ November 08, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[mark12_30]

Bird--

Going back to the night of the rescue-- I'm going to "take care" of the "extra" Study Guard before they go up the mountain for the sacrifice. More guilt for Gamba, and also then you can rescue both your guys from the Locks. Works better that way. --Helen

[Child of the 7th Age]

There was only a single high mountain on Númenor. The original island had a single, volcanic type peak(Meneltarma) as its center. The top of the peak was blown off and hollowed as vaolcanic peaks are wont to do. This caldera, the original place of worship at the top of the peak was huge, and it is where we all are now. It is like a meadow now and along its sides the trees have grown up and the vegetation.

Pat,

Geologically you're definitely right. But I imagined it differently.

Let me explain. I was envisioning the island in mystical or fantastic terms rather than 'real' ones. To me, Meneltarma is, like Valinor or Tol Eressea, a magical place still part of Arda, but very different than your average piece of real estate in Middle-earth. It is not subject to the normal laws of nature, any more than Tol Eressea would be (which used to cross back and forth across the waters, and of course, like Aman, could not be reached on the straight road). I almost envisioned the mount as a kind of junior Taniquetil which was why I had Idril say the isle reminded her a bit of Elvenhome.

Tolkien states that many mariners searched for Meneltarma but failed to find it. It was apparently hidden under some kind of protective cover. That goes beyond any geology we know or understand.

For the same reason, I felt that, when the isle was reconstructed, Eru's Mount would still have to be there as a mountain. The mountain could not be overcome or fundamentally changed, in the same way that evil could not overcome goodness. No matter what the people of Numenor did, no matter how Sauron tried, they could not destroy the holy place where the Faithful of Numenor came to worship. I saw Angara as its special guardian, appointed by Ulmo, the dragon sitting astride the mountaintop and glaring down on any intruders that might show their noses before the end of time.

The cone with grasslands and trees does conform to nature's laws, but is less visually compelling than the dragon on the mountaintop.

If we decide to go with the scooped out cone with meadows and some trees, I'll need to revise my earlier descriptions. In my original post when the hobbits get their first close look at things from the ships,

...the mountain was so close to the heavens that the hobbits could not even see where its top point lay.

Ancalimon also mentioned the memorial place was in a glade tucked beneath Eru's Mount:

. Ancalimon had found a grassy spot tucked away near the base of the mountain.

What do you think? Does anyone else see Meneltarma in a particular way?

For now, I'll leave the post, until we decide for sure what to do with the island. If we eliminate Mount Eru, I'll probably have Cami take a small skiff out to sea to be by herself and look over things from a distance (which was what I was trying to do with the mountain). As for the isle itself, without the mountain, I'd probably make it a bit more windswept and stark in its beauty, with just a few flowered meadows and shady groves.

sharon

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Pat,

I'm flexible as well. The revisions aren't so extensive that they would prove a problem. I can see an argument made either way.

Basically, we have windswept island of stark beauty with scattered grasslands and small forest groves versus island with mountain in the middle and fairly thick forests at the base. If we retain the mountain, you're right in saying the top of the mount should be similar to that in the Descripton of Numenor--a bowl shaped crater, not a point.

But the hobbits can't see the top in my post. I figure when you're that short, everything must look gigantic and far away. I could always put a sentence in like this the first time they see it, "If they had been able to crain their heads to see the top of Eru's Mount, they would have realized that the mount still retained its bowl shaped crater...."

Why don't we leave this thing open a day or two, and see if anyone else has opinions or preferences?

BTW, I really liked your Daisy post.

sharon