Who, in The Lord of the Rings, was the most effective liar?

[littlemanpoet]

Effective liar. Not the most prone, not the most self deceived, not the most obvious; no; rather, the most effective. Cast your vote and explain your thinking, if you like.

[Nogrod]

It can't be Boromir for his deception was short-lived and dubious in the first place as he regretted it and tried to heal the damage he had done. He was indeed effective to the good side in the end.

It won't be Denethor either for me as his lie was not effective enough to lead Gandalf and the defence of Minas Tirith astray.

With Gollum there is the problem of only one part of him being treacherous as Frodo's behaviour managed to bring forth the other one: Sméagol against Déagol - even if the dark one could have been said to talk through the good one at times.

Saruman's lies were also not profound enough to get my vote here as he too was revealed as what he was quite early on and he failed badly in the end and managed only through Wormtongue in relation to the Rohirrim.

That would leave Sauron and Wormtongue for me.

Sauron has his credits: swaying the smiths to forge the rings is a case in point. Fooling Saruman, the greatest of the Maiar in the ME and Denethor the steward of Gondor in a tight place are credits for him as well. There is effectiveness to the largest scale.

But Wormtongue also was effective in ther scale of his reach. He managed to fool Théoden for a long time and would have been succesful if Gandalf had not broken the spell he had wowen. Also he managed to fool Saruman himself from his real feelings and capabilities in the end.

So I would need to choose between the two until you give other arguments for me to change my mind on this.

[Groin Redbeard]

There’s no doubt about it, Sauron the deceiver lied to the great smiths to create rings of power, so that he could give them to the great leaders of the races of Middle Earth, in hopes of controlling them all.

-He nearly controlled the Elves, but they were too clever for him.
-The Dwarves were a hardy race, and to resistant for him to take an immediate toll on them.
-The leaders of the race of men, however, fell victim to his scheme and became his greatest servants, the Nazgul.

Sauron also through his web of lies and deceit gained another dark servant: Saruman, another person who was known to be skilled with deceiving people and controlling them, as we saw with Theoden.

Now I have nothing to prove this thought, but wasn’t Sauron the one who brought about the destruction of Numenor? I’m pretty sure he corrupted the King at the time, but it has been a long time since I have read the Silmarillion.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Now I have nothing to prove this thought, but wasn’t Sauron the one who brought about the destruction of Numenor? I’m pretty sure he corrupted the King at the time

Yes, you are right. And Sauron's a very talented liar. I'll vote for him.

So far Wormtongue is the only other one in the running.

[mormegil]

You didn't ask best you asked most effective. Given the difference in powers and whatnot I would have to say Wormtongue as his 'powers' were rather limited and finite yet his decite accomplished a great deal towards his cause. He nearly fooled an entire kingdom and lacking Gandalf he would have been successful.

[Alfirin]

I though I should point out that Saruman gets away with another lie earlier in the book one that in its own way is both more audacios and more effective than any he is able to put over on Theoden via Wormtounge. The lie is when he tells the Morgul King that he does not know where the Shire is. As pointed out in the Unfinished Tales, Saruman would have had to know where it was. The agumen made goes something like this. Like Gandalf, Saruman by this tile also used pipeweed (Merry after being woken up by Aragorn and looking for his pipe says that the pipeweed he has is "some of Saruman's best") Since its use is still more or less unkown Tolkein makes it clear that the Shire and its immediate environs is the only place in middle earth from which pipeweed can be obtained. Therefore, anyone who uses pipeweed must have business contacts within the shire, or at least within hobbit lands. This lie is in its own way more audacious than those to Theoden. After all theoden represented little threat to Saruman on his own (i.e. sans ents and hourns) whereas lying to the morgul king if the lie was found out risked incurring the wrath of both the Morgul king (who is proably more powerful that Saruman one on one already by the time of the lie) and of Sauron himself. Even if Saruman was not yet in Sauron's thrall lying to the morgul king would be a risky move at best.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

whereas lying to the morgul king if the lie was found out risked incurring the wrath of both the Morgul king (who is proably more powerful that Saruman one on one already by the time of the lie) and of Sauron himself. Even if Saruman was not yet in Sauron's thrall lying to the morgul king would be a risky move at best.

Why might the Morgul king have been more powerful than Saruman? He was nothing but a Man, a wraith, even though one of Sauron's most powerful captains, whereas Saruman was one of the Istari and of much greater origin than the Morgul king. Sauron had far greater armies than Saruman though, but what could he have done to Saruman himself? And it would have been only ridiculous, had Sauron started to fight against Saruman instead of Gondor and Rohan...

I voted for Saruman.

I fail to see what made Boromir a liar. He never meant anything bad to happen, it wasn't his fault the Ring attracted him, and he never really lied. I would forget the incident on Amon Hen- Boromir wasn't being himself and soon recovered and regretted what he had done. And, as far as I see it, Boromir's lies didn't cause anything bad to happen, on the contrary. Frodo succeeded because he left the Fellowship then, and we don't know what would have happened, had he not done it on that very moment.
Sauron was scarier and more powerful as a servant of Melko than as the Dark Lord on the throne of Mordor. Furhermore, his power was rather in violence than in verbal things.
Gollum never really achieved anything by lying. In the end all his lies turned against him. The same goes with Denethor.

Even though he never had as great plans and motives, I think Wormtongue was in a way a better liar than Saruman- mainly because he wasn't too full of himself to see what happened around him (which happened to Saruman). What makes Saruman more effective is that he really used his power and knowledge. Wormtongue had a strong influence on Rohan's politics, true, but why was he working? Not for his own fun, surely, he never gained anything by betraying Théoden. He was Saruman's puppet, and his lies came directly from Saruman.

Saruman dared to cheat the other members of the White Council for quite a long time, and I think that was riskier than lying to the Morgul king. And would he have been revealed even that early, had he not decided to tell Gandalf about his plans?

Saruman's voice was of course an effective talent when it comes to lying. Nogrod said Saruman's lies were not profound enough, but it was his voice that made them profound and believable if they weren't that by themselves.

If there was something Saruman succeeded in, it was destroying the Shire for a while. After Saruman's death the damage done was fixed, but the whole country was under his control before Frodo & co. returned.
Everyone can decide themselves if it was a difficult thing to scare some Hobbits who didn't know anything about the cruel world, though...

Considering the Downfall of Númenor, I think Saruman would have managed to destroy Númenor with the same means Sauron did, had he been there in Sauron's stead.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Given the difference in powers and whatnot I would have to say Wormtongue as his 'powers' were rather limited and finite yet his decite accomplished a great deal towards his cause. He nearly fooled an entire kingdom and lacking Gandalf he would have been successful.

Your right about Grima almost fooled the ruler of an entire Kingdom, but he didn't succeed. It seems that Grima's only acconmplishement was to hold back Theoden from taking action against Saruman at the time. Besides, Grima was mearly a puppet for Saruman's master-plan, and Saruman was in turn a puppet for Sauron's master-plan. So you see, it all comes back to Sauron no matter on how you look at it.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, isn't the Second Age too early to be considered in this thread?

It dosen't say anywhere that we just have to be proned to focusing on achievements done in the Third Age.

And, considering the state of Ar-Pharazon, it wasn't that much of an accomplishment. Saruman, the Jack-of-all-trades, with his Voice, is capable of achieving the same, in my opinion.

Sauron destroyed an entire island, the homeland of the Numenoreans, the greatest fighting men of the age. Now if that's not an accomplishment I'd like to see what is.

You say that Saruman was capable of doing the same to the island of Numenor. He very well might have been able to, but he didn't. Therefore that makes Saurons acheivments all the more amazing, because no-one in the history of Middle Earth has done such an amazing feat.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Besides, Grima was mearly a puppet for Saruman's master-plan, and Saruman was in turn a puppet for Sauron's master-plan. So you see, it all comes back to Sauron no matter on how you look at it.

But we are not talking about who is the most adept strategist - but who is the most effective liar... you know.. the groundwork .

It dosen't say anywhere that we just have to be proned to focusing on achievements done in the Third Age.

I disagree... The very prologue of the LotR qualifies it as a story of the end of the Third Age. If we allow ourselves to extend its reach at will, then why not include Melkor in the vote; he would be a sure winner by all accounts.

Sauron destroyed an entire island, the homeland of the Numenoreans, the greatest fighting men of the age. Now if that's not an accomplishment I'd like to see what is.

It was not Sauron who physically destroyed Numenor. As for its moral decay, it began even before him.

You say that Saruman was capable of doing the same to the island of Numenor. He very well might have been able to, but he didn't. Therefore that makes Saurons acheivments all the more amazing, because no-one in the history of Middle Earth has done such an amazing feat.

Again, we are back at disregarding the boundaries of LotR and arbitrarily setting our own. Melkor accomplished far greater destructions, directly and indirectly.

Originally Posted by Alfirin

I though I should point out that Saruman gets away with another lie earlier in the book one that in its own way is both more audacios and more effective than any he is able to put over on Theoden via Wormtounge. The lie is when he tells the Morgul King that he does not know where the Shire is.

Great point indeed.

Originally Posted by The hunt for the ring, UT

Such was still the power of the voice of Saruman that even the Lord of the Nazgul did not question what it said, whether it was false or short of the full truth; but straightway he rode from the Gate and began to hunt for Gandalf in Rohan.

I would further like to point that Saruman's voice is not magical, which adds even more credit to him, as far as this thread is concerned (emphasis original):

Originally Posted by Letter #210

Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake. It was always open to one to reject, by free will and reason, both his voice while speaking and its after-impressions. Saruman corrupted the reasoning powers.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It can't be Boromir for his deception was short-lived and dubious in the first place as he regretted it and tried to heal the damage he had done. He was indeed effective to the good side in the end.

It won't be Denethor either for me as his lie was not effective enough to lead Gandalf and the defence of Minas Tirith astray.

With Gollum there is the problem of only one part of him being treacherous as Frodo's behaviour managed to bring forth the other one: Sméagol against Déagol - even if the dark one could have been said to talk through the good one at times.

Saruman's lies were also not profound enough to get my vote here as he too was revealed as what he was quite early on and he failed badly in the end and managed only through Wormtongue in relation to the Rohirrim.

That would leave Sauron and Wormtongue for me.

Sauron has his credits: swaying the smiths to forge the rings is a case in point. Fooling Saruman, the greatest of the Maiar in the ME and Denethor the steward of Gondor in a tight place are credits for him as well. There is effectiveness to the largest scale.

But Wormtongue also was effective in ther scale of his reach. He managed to fool Théoden for a long time and would have been succesful if Gandalf had not broken the spell he had wowen. Also he managed to fool Saruman himself from his real feelings and capabilities in the end.

So I would need to choose between the two until you give other arguments for me to change my mind on this.

My reasoning mostly. I voted Wormtongue.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Saruman's lies were also not profound enough to get my vote here as he too was revealed as what he was quite early on and he failed badly in the end and managed only through Wormtongue in relation to the Rohirrim.

Quite early on? Hm... I wouldn't say so. He was discovered a few months before the end of the Third Age, and he had his way for more than 160 years, fooling Men, Elves and other Istari.

Fooling Saruman, the greatest of the Maiar in the ME

Hm... I kinda doubt he still had that title by that time, nor that he was fooled - his eye was "trapped and held" by Sauron, he was persuaded and daunted, but I don't think he was lied to by Sauron.

Denethor the steward of Gondor in a tight place are credits for him as well

I disagree with this too; Sauron wasn't able to make the palantir "lie", only to direct its "vision". While it may qualify as a deceit, it is not a lie, in the context of this thread.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

There’s no doubt about it, Sauron the deceiver lied to the great smiths to create rings of power, so that he could give them to the great leaders of the races of Middle Earth, in hopes of controlling them all.

-He nearly controlled the Elves, but they were too clever for him.

Well, isn't the Second Age too early to be considered in this thread? And about the elves, I doubt he would have controlled them as an entire species, if three of them would have kept their rings on.

wasn’t Sauron the one who brought about the destruction of Numenor?

Well, also, too early - I would say. [And, considering the state of Ar-Pharazon, it wasn't that much of an accomplishment. Saruman, the Jack-of-all-trades, with his Voice, is capable of achieving the same, in my opinion.]

[Boromir88]

I said Saruman...I'll get to the full explanation later, when I have more time. But pretty much it's summed up in Raynor's point:

He was discovered a few months before the end of the Third Age, and he had his way for more than 160 years, fooling Men, Elves and other Istari.

[Bêthberry]

Ah, I see that a name is omitted from this list. Surely the most effective liar in Lord of the Rings is the author himself, given the vigor of his imagination and the power of his conception to lead people to want to believe in Middle-earth, if not engage in actual belief itself that this is a story of our world's early ages.

And if the power of the tale itself is not evidence enough, consider his own statements. Look at his claim in the Prologue that hobbits "are an unobstrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today--now there's the very kind of falsehood the author engages in blatently stated--and the present tense continues in the subseqent paragraphs, leading to such statements as imply the existence of Dwarves (the race, not simply small humans) and indeed the author even makes the very claim that "Hobbits are relatives of ours". And one more example of the kind of lies our author makes which forms the very basis of the effectiveness of his fantastic art:

Originally Posted by The author himself

Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea.

And then there's that self-made confession in the Foreward to the Second Edition: "I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability. . .".

It cannot be said our author affirmeth nothing when he affirms that these are tales of the early years of our world. And who of us when reading are not convinced of these words, not merely suspending our disbelief but actually persuaded of the world? Indeed, the Author even went to some effort in a long essay to elucidate the nature of his persuasive art: developing desirability. There can be no fuller confession of the nature of the effectivenses of his authorial method than this.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Ah, I see that a name is omitted from this list. Surely the most effective liar in Lord of the Rings is the author himself,

Clever, and your point is well taken; however, the question is asked of those "IN" LotR whereas the author stands outside it. So it is not, technically, an omission.

As for "too early", Raynor and others, it's an open debate as to what status the Appendices have by way of "IN LotR", as the question was stated. So I'll allow the appendices as part of LotR for the purposes of this discussion.

Effectiveness must take into account who gets misled and who doesn't. Wormtongue misleads the Rohirrim but not Gandalf. Saruman misleads Radagast & many of the Rohirrim but not Eomer and not Gandalf. And so on.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Saruman misleads Radagast & many of the Rohirrim but not Eomer and not Gandalf.

I disagree; Gandalf was misled all the way up to the day he was imprisoned.

As for "too early", Raynor and others, it's an open debate as to what status the Appendices have by way of "IN LotR", as the question was stated. So I'll allow the appendices as part of LotR for the purposes of this discussion.

Then, as said previously, we must include Melkor in the poll. He too is mentioned in the appendices, and, passingly, in the story itself. In fact, it may be said that all the other baddies owe a great deal to him, in terms of the effectiveness of their lying:

Originally Posted by Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath, Silmarillion

Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ah, I see that a name is omitted from this list. Surely the most effective liar in Lord of the Rings is the author himself.

Strange, Bethberry, but when I first read the question, this was also the first thought that leapt to my mind.

Clever, and your point is well taken; however, the question is asked of those "IN" LotR whereas the author stands outside it. So it is not, technically, an omission.

Littlemanpoet,

On one level, what you are saying is obviously correct. But there is another way to view things. By the rules set up by JRRT, the writer(s) of the Redbook implicitly lie within the story. Moreover, you have several overall narrators of the Legendarium, who were introduced earlier at different points. These historical/mythical narrators technically fall within Middle-earth. In effect, there is a widening circle of narrators, who have one or more feet inside the tale. At what point, do these concentric rings stop? At what point does history become myth (and vice versa)? Does that circle extend far enough to take in Tolkien and, in effect, make him the biggest and most effective liar of all?

On the other hand, if you look at some of the language of certain Letters, Tolkien did feel that he was writing something that already existed as truth on some level. He was not lying or inventing. He was telling the truth about something that he was fortunate enough to be able to get a glimse of. That may be why his story rings so true to those of us who aren't so fortunate to possess that ability to "see" things on that level.

This wasn't what the original question you raised. But on some level, it's fascinating to ask how the author stands in relation to truth and not truth. Either he is an enormously effective liar or the conveyor of some fundamental truths that the rest of us can't see as well as he did.

On a practical basis, however, my vote goes to Sauron.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Clever, and your point is well taken; however, the question is asked of those "IN" LotR whereas the author stands outside it. So it is not, technically, an omission.

As Child pointed out, there are narrators who are part of the story--I believe we even had a thread on the Conceit of the Narrator. Yet at the same time, there are many threads here which attempt to discover who Tolkien is by virtue of his writing--and not just the more autobiographical writings such as Leaf by Niggle and Smith of Wootton Major. There are many Downers no less than other readers (those poor unfortunates who have not found this piece of Middle-earth in the Seventh Age) who insist that we can know many things about an author from his work. There's an entire sub-category of literary analysis based upon psychoanalytic theory, for instance, as well as less theoretical interpretations which believe that the nature or character of the person is unfolded by his or her writing. So for those readers, Tolkien truly is in the text. He does, after all, have by far the greatest effect on the action, having decided either consciously or unconsciously what the story would be, where it would go, who would be the characters. Who other than the author has such an impact upon the action of the story?

But both Child's and Raynor's posts bring another interesting dimension to this question by pointing out that Tolkien, at some point in his life, decided or realized that what he was writing was true history, the very essence of real myth and he spent the remaining years of his life niggling his Legendarium to reflect more clearly aspects of his faith. Does this mean Tolkien saw himself as a Prophet, revealing God's truth? Did Tolkien believe that his writing personally helped him recover from the Fall--that is, did he believe that his writing granted him a State of Grace?

[littlemanpoet]

Interpret it as you like, but for the purposes of this thread the only 6 choices are those provided. Sorry.

I'm rather impressed, however, with Gandalf as an effective liar. Creating poll threads is a rather dangerous business since someone else will pretty certainly think of something I didn't. So it goes.

[Meriadoc1961]

I say Sauron because his lies were so effective it took the intervention of Iluvatar and a changing of the world.

Merry

[Boromir88]

I say Sauron because his lies were so effective it took the intervention of Iluvatar and a changing of the world.~Meriadoc

But by the 3rd Age (and well back into the 2nd) Sauron wasn't fooling anyone anymore. He had been 'figured out." He wasn't able to keep his "Necromancer" identity for long and the only people he managed to get on his side were the ones he bribed or intimidated. He tried to trick the dwarves into helping him, they wouldn't. The Elves, Gondorians, and Rohirrim weren't deceived by him anymore.

Sauron had lost his ability to put on a 'fair hue,' after the sinking of Numenor, so he no longer was deceiving anyone. He ruled (and 'grew' in power) with fear and bribery, not through deception.

Saruman relied solely on his cunning and his 'skillful voice' that corrupted your reasoning abilities. As Raynor pointed out Saruman had not only been fooling the White Council, and all of his allies, but for a time he was also fooling Sauron. I think we can see that in Gandalf's comment, which reminds me of the saying "you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar."

"So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."~The Palantiri

Saruman was able to keep up a charade (I'm not good with years but I trust Raynor is correct when saying 160 years) for a long time. He was lying to the White Council, his allies, Sauron's servants, and even Sauron...and not just lying but able to keep it a secret for a long time. When he gets caught, he comes to the 'last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in.'

But, I would like to add, and I mentioned this earlier. Even after Saruman is figured out, and his voice began to 'lose its charm' he still has significant 'skill.' As he holds the Men of Rohan in a 'dream-like' state for a while, and he causes a seed of doubt to arise in Theoden's mind (after Theoden just told Saruman he was full of crap).

To me that takes some skill, when everyone knows you're a tricky, in it for yourself, liar and you are still able to weave in doubt, you are still able to corrupt? Once Sauron lost his ability to assume a fair form, he was figured out and wasn't fooling anyone. He had to go to intimidation and bribery. Saruman still kept up his game of lying (lying quite 'effectively' I might add) even after everyone knew he was a traitor.

[Raynor]

I wouldn't want my words to be taken just for granted , regarding the 160+ years:

Originally Posted by Tale of Years, RotK

2851, Third Age

The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. [It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.] Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.
...


July, 4, 3018

Gandalf imprisoned in Orthanc.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Saruman still kept up his game of lying (lying quite 'effectively' I might add) even after everyone knew he was a traitor.

He also managed to successfully hide his intentions in his meeting with Gandalf, Galadriel, the hobbits et al, on August 28 - only to take over the Shire a month later. He still got the "skillz" .

[CSteefel]

Some very interesting posts.

Echoing some of the posts above, Sauron does seem a likely candidate in the 2nd Age, given that he deceived the men of Numenor so successfully, even if the fall of Numenor cannot be attributed to him alone. And perhaps more importantly, he did deceive the Elves of Eregion (with the exception of Galadriel). In the 3rd Age, I don't see much evidence that he deceived anybody.

Saruman was able to deceive the entire White Council, with the exception of Gandalf and Galadriel to some extent (it is stated that Galadriel preferred Gandalf as the choice for the head of the Council and that Gandalf did not share all he knew himself about the Ring that Bilbo had found, implying some level of mistrust). But even in the case of Galadriel, the suspicion was not strong enough that she was willing to derail Saruman's appointment. This is in contrast to Sauron, who was never capable of deceiving either Galadriel or Gil-galad, even in the 2nd Age. One might argue that Saruman initially was not evil, but the falsity of his intentions was clear from the time when he started to search the Gladden Fields secretly, as far back as 2851 as Raynor points out above. Add to that the deceit of the men of Rohan and you have a pretty good record.

[Galadriel]

Saruman. Definitely Saruman.

[Arendil15]

I voted Wormtongue because his "advice" did corrupt King Theoden. Like in the movies Wormtongue says that Saruman has been Rohan's friend and ally, which we all know isn't true, but to Theoden its the truth, because his mind has been poisened by Wormtongue's evil whisperings.

[doug*platypus]

I'm going to throw a spanner in the works and suggest that none of them were effective liars. To my mind, an effective liar would have gotten away with it, and come away largely scot-free at the end of the tale. But as we know, all of them met a grisly death! And I think there's a lesson in that.

However, since lmp did not allow "none of the above" as an option, I humbly suggest that Gollum was the most effective, but not in the way he intended. He deceived Frodo into taking the Pass of Cirith Ungol, making out that it was relatively safe, with ill intent. Had Frodo not taken this way, he would never have been able to make it to Mount Doom. Gollum's deception in leading Frodo and Sam that way, and his treachery in reclaiming the Ring in the Sammath Naur led to the destruction of the Ring and the fall of Sauron. Effective!