Scene-by-scene?

[alatar]

Been thinking more about the PJ-bashing threads, and also about the Movies section of the Downs. After we bashed (or not!) each scene, what else are we going to discuss in this section? I assume that no new DVDs are on the way anytime soon, and the Hobbit remake along with any LOTR remake or spin-offs ("LAPD: Dwarf and Elf") are far in the future.

Just what shall we talk about?

Anyone interested in critiquing the PJ LOTR movies, scene by scene? Never did the CbC thing yet as I still haven't recovered my books, and so not sure how that all works. Anyway, I would imagine that we would all view a scene (or scenes if they be short), then critique them. I'm no film critic, yet I think that I could argue why I liked a scene, why it worked, how certain elements aided (or not) the scene, etc. And though I've mentioned bashing, those participants who simply state that "I hate it!" without any additional rational information will simply be ignored.

The various commentaries could also be used to gain further insight.

Some scenes like the Gandalf-Witch King face off have been equinely whipped beyond dead, but what if we looked at all of the scenes? Maybe we all would have a better understanding of the tradeoffs, mistakes and changes that were made by PJ.

Anyone interested? Anyone interested in 'running the show' or at least being a Gandalf to this Frodo?

Just a thought.

[Shelob]

I'm interested. Not in running it though, I've got enough going on that running something here might kill me. A chance to discuss the movies critically though, that's too good a chance to pass up, it means I can stop bugging my brother with comments begining "Now I wonder why they chose...?" or the like.

[Essex]

good idea - I can already hear the lamenting of the "100% Faithful to the Text fan club" starting, but TREEBEARD said that! Not Galadriel! as we start the movie off.

[Boromir88]

I of course am interested, this should get....fun seeing as Essex is here.

I wonder if we could do this Chapter-by-Chapter discussion like the books. If you go to the War of the Ring it breaks down the movies in their respective Chapter of the books.

[Essex]

yeah, but the scenes jump from chapter to chapter (and book to book) - so we could do it against the titles of the DVD EE 'chapters'?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It'll only make me feel worse about not participating in the CbC section but OK.

And I don't think it will be difficult to run it. Basically, all the moderator would have to do is signal when the discussion moves onto the next scene. Right? We're not necessarily talking about Estelyn-levels of involvement, are we?

[alatar]

Thanks for the replies. Will do some thinking and (for gosh sakes!) some planning and get started here soon as permitted.

And I think that we should stick with the DVDs as they are presented. Hopefully all participants will have access to the EE versions, as PJ "made these ones for us." And as we are critiquing the movies, it would be helpful to leave the books at home.

Did I just commit the unforgivable sin on the Downs?

I know that we will still be saying things like "Treebeard didn't say that" and "that happened later in the Books" but (1) this is the movie section of the forum and (2) we are discussing the movies. So it would be helpful if we stayed with what was on the screen and in the commentaries.

Thoughts?

[Anguirel]

Mmm...I think reference to and synthesis with the books will add a rich layer to this scheme, myself. As long as the primary object remains the discussed scene.

[Shelob]

For purposes of discussing the translation from book to movie it's cool...Book and Film are two completely different mediums and you can't express in one what you can in another. To look solely at the movies, without any reference to the books, will harm the movies and to compare them in to stringent a manner will harm both movies and books. It's balance, or a juggling act...

However, given that it's to be a discussion of the movies, I agree the discussion should be focused towards the movies, with the books as simply supporting material.

[Kath]

I like the idea. It'd be good to see what other people really think of the films and why rather than just posting a little and then having to stop because it's off-topic.

alatar since it's not too much work (as you said yourself) why don't you be 'moderator' since it was your idea?

[The Saucepan Man]

Seems like a good idea to me. I doubt that I'll get too deeply involved myself, as I have been over and over many of the scenes many times, but I'm happy to take overall "modding" responsibility for it.

Alatar, would you be prepared to take on the day-to-day running of the discussion (starting new threads, posting links to the script etc)? If so, how do you propose structuring it? Do you envisage having a new thread for each new scene? If so, then I'll have to think about whether a sub-forum in the Movies Forum might be a sensible option.

[Boromir88]

And I think that we should stick with the DVDs as they are presented. Hopefully all participants will have access to the EE versions, as PJ "made these ones for us."~Alatar

Call me a heathen, but I don't got 'em. I have seen each of them several times, but as for owning the...nadda, though I can get my hands on the script and stuff like that.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I think it's a cool idea, although I agree that a separate forum should probably be established because we are talking a TON of scenes here. Alas, I do not have the extended editions yet, though I've seen each of them. I'm saving up to get all three of the Collector's Edition Gift Sets (complete with figurines) from Amazon. Forty bucks apiece with free shipping, in case anyone's interested.

[Essex]

for our uk viewers, HMV a doing a sale on the complete extended trilogy (without the statues - so not the collecter's editions) - can't remember exactly how much, but it was less than half price if my memory serves me correctly. (and i only saw them a few nights back - i must be getting old)

[Mister Underhill]

I like the idea of a complete movie discussion, but there are some logistical details to hash out. For instance:

I reckon that the three EE movies combined represent 188 chapters, not counting end credits or any extras. It's impractical to do a chapter a week -- if the discussion never took a break, it would take over three and a half years to plow through it all.

The good news is that, based on the run-times listed on Amazon, the average chapter length is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3.5 minutes, though it's probably closer to 3 since the run-times probably include the credits.

So the options are to do each chapter but on a faster than one-a-week pace, or to organize the chapters into logical blocks. For instance, we might do the Prologue all by itself to get our feet wet, then group Concerning Hobbits, The Shire, and Very Old Friends into one discussion sequence. This is where a good moderator would come in handy -- his or her duties would include grouping the chapters into sequences.

As for the books, I think they should absolutely be fair game for discussion. These are adaptations, and analyzing their relation to the source is a key aspect of discussion. Here again we'd need a moderator with steady nerves and good sense to keep the discussion focused and civil (is there any way we can clone Esty? -- she's worth her weight in mithril).

I like the idea of the project, but I think it would need a committed discussion leader at the helm to be successful.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Sounds great! It's about a time that the movies get their own Something-by-Something discussion.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

it would take over three and a half years to plow through it all

Wow, hmmm, I definitely agree that we should do a few scenes at a time.

[Kitanna]

Sounds interesting...I like this idea.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Alatar, would you be prepared to take on the day-to-day running of the discussion (starting new threads, posting links to the script etc)? If so, how do you propose structuring it? Do you envisage having a new thread for each new scene? If so, then I'll have to think about whether a sub-forum in the Movies Forum might be a sensible option.

Yes. It's gonna take a bit of thought to get it started, and to collate all of the great thoughts posted here, but I hope to get something up soon. I want to look over the CbC and see how that's constructed.

Not sure what to do in regards to everyone having the DVDs and having the same versions. As I have the EE versions, those obviously are the ones that I would prefer to use. And taking Mr. Underhill's suggestion, I would group the scenes accordingly.

Anyway, actually am busy at work this week, but will post here when I'm about ready to launch.

Thanks for all of the advice, input and help, present and future.

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks alatar.

I'm running the idea past BW, just to check that he's OK with it. In the meantime, would you be able to do some research on the likely breakdown of scenes per thread - for FotR at least - and give some thought as to how long will be alloted for each scene grouping before moving onto the next group, so as to get an idea of how long the project will last?

I'll look into opening a sub-forum in the Movies Forum to accomodate the project.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

This is an interesting idea. But which would be the reference dvd used, the
movie version or extended dvd?

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, BW's given the thumbs-up, so it can go ahead.

Mister Underhill will make the necessary arrangements for a sub-forum in the Movies forum.

Originally Posted by Tuor in (formerly of) Gondolin

But which would be the reference dvd used, the movie version or extended dvd?

I see no reason why the process should not include the additional scenes. If people are not familiar with them, then it's up to them whether they contribute with regard to those particular scenes. The discussion could then cover the impact on the films of the addition of the extra scenes, ie comparing the films with and without them.

[Essex]

so why not group them roughly into book chapter sizes (where possible) - for example (discounting the prologue which could be done as one 'chapter'), maybe we could cover from the first scene proper with Bilbo talking about Hobbits, up until the 'keep it secret, keep it safe' words of Gandalf to Frodo. - this would fit in loosely with A Long Expected Party...............

[alatar]

More thoughts about the SbS:

• As some have suggested, I would group scenes so that we're not spending the rest of our mortal lives in FOTR:EE. Grouping the scenes by chapter or content could be done, yet in this media typically one experiences it as it is presented. For example, there's a reason that PJ cuts away from the Shire to Orthanc (scenes 11 and 12 respectively). If we skip over 12 (to come back to it later), are we missing something that the media was trying to present to us? Should we group scenes yet still attempt to maintain the "DVDlogical" ordering?

• To start each group of scenes off, I envision that I would present some sort of overview of the scene(s). Would this be descriptive or more of a synopsis (if I'm using those words correctly)? For example, for the prologue, would I start by saying that "some woman is speaking such and such words," or "Galadriel narrates the prologue." Is the difference apparent? How much do I 'bias' the discussion by saying what could be to some not obvious?

• I would then, after doing something to get the thread started, would either immediately post my thoughts on the scenes, asking questions, pointing out specific issues etc or wait to see how the posting progresses before adding my 2 cents. Or do I shorten the 'start' thread and add more of my thoughts there?

• We could review a new set of scenes each week, Sunday to Sunday possibly, yet still be flexible for those threads that really take off, extending the time as needed (sorry, having a sudden delusion of grandeur) or cutting short those that tank.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Never did this kind of thing before, and so welcome any helpful hints, suggestions or time travel technology so that I can go back and stop myself from starting this thread...

[Mister Underhill]

If you want to back out, now's the time -- before sub-barrows have been excavated and the appetites of the Movie ghouls have been properly whetted. It is a big commitment -- at the very least we're talking watching scenes and starting up a thread once a week for a year or more.

If you do decide to undertake this quest (though you do not know the way... or, you sort of know... okay, you know the way, it's just a frokking long way), here are my two bits:

1. I don't think you need to knock yourself out with a synopsis -- participants have theoretically just watched the scenes, right? We don't need a recap. I think you can pretty much jump right in and get the discussion going. Esty has done a fabulous job of this in CbC; check out some first posts there to study her technique, but of course also feel free to make SbS your own.

2. Since SbS won't be as intuitive as CbC (i.e., "What do we watch this week?"), it will be important to have a breakdown handy for participants (perhaps as a sticky thread?) so that everyone knows well ahead of time what the next week's block of scenes will be. We'll also have to come up with a thread-naming convention to keep the forum semi-organized.

3. I think without question that we need to respect the medium and watch the scenes in order, without attempting some sort of Tolkien's Cut version by reordering scenes for the discussion.

4. If indeed the project forges ahead, we'll want to spend a little time building awareness via a forum-wide Announcement and any other such means as seem advisable (signature links spring to mind).

But, let me repeat, alatar, that if you find yourself wondering how you got yourself into this mess and how you can now gracefully get yourself out, now is the time to speak up.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

But, let me repeat, alatar, that if you find yourself wondering how you got yourself into this mess and how you can now gracefully get yourself out, now is the time to speak up.

I appreciate the offer, but I really wasn't being too serious about backing out. Just hoping that it goes well. Just some pre-game jitters, that's all.

Have only one caveat: Ms. alatar and I are expecting our fourth child mid/late November, and that may set me back a day or two . Is there a possibility of having a backup in place for that time?

And watching the movies isn't that big of a deal. Practiced last night. Will send along a proposed 'grouped' scene list soon.

[mormegil]

I would be interested in discussing the movies as well. I do have one question though, are mistakes allowed to be discussed? Or only certain types of mistakes or none whatsoever. I'm fond of mistakes but I'm not sure this would be the thread to bring up such issues.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Alatar, if and when you need a break for real life reasons, just announce it and take it! I have resorted to preparing an advance thread when I knew I'd be away, but I have also postponed a new discussion for my (well-earned! ) vacation. There have also been times when my introductions were briefer than at other times. You're a human being, not a machine!

I'm sure you'll do a great job, and hope you'll find yourself enjoying preparation as much as I enjoy reading my weekly chapter!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

You're a human being, not a machine!

Haa! Another one fooled!

Have noted that I experience doubt when presented with an event for which I have no data...no way to predict outcome. Think that with some criticism I'll learn what to do, then how to do that efficiently and effectively. Thanks for your support (sight unseen, I must note).

Here could be a scene grouping for FOTR:EE. Note that this grouping is tentative and may be changed as per others' suggestions and my rewatching the scenes in this way to see if they (1) have too much going on within them and (2) make some sense.

• Prologue: One Ring to Rule Them All...

• Concerning Hobbits; The Shire; Very Old Friends; A Long-expected Party; Farewell Dear Bilbo

• Keep It Secret, Keep it Safe; The Account of Isildur; At the Green Dragon; The Shadow of the Past; The Passing of the Elves

• Saruman the White

• A Short Cut to Mushrooms; Bucklebury Ferry; At the Sign of The Prancing Pony; The Nazgul; The Midgewater Marshes

• The Spoiling of Isengard

• Flight to the Ford; Rivendell; Many Meetings; The Fate of the Ring; The Sword That Was Broken; The Evenstar

• The Council of Elrond; Gilraen's Memorial; Bilbo's Gifts

• The Departure of the Fellowship; The Ring Goes South; The Pass of Caradhras

• Moria; A Journey in the Dark; Balin's Tomb;The Bridge of Khazad-dum

• Lothlorien; Caras Galadhon; The Mirror of Galadriel; The Fighting Uruk-hai; Farewell to Lorien

• The Great River; Parth Galen; The Breaking of the Fellowship; The Departure of Boromir; The Road Goes Ever On...

Should this grouping (or something like it) prove fit for purpose then I will start crafting a few of the start threads - would love to steal the Welcome! sticky for the CbC, but will write my own. Trying to make some progress, but what y'all call reality has been intruding on my time lately.

Thanks for all help in advance!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Alatar, there's no copyright on my welcome thread; you're very welcome to take it and revise it for your purposes, or use any part that fits into what you want to say.

Your breakdown looks good; on a weekly basis, the first movie would then take about three months. We're getting close to the Christmas holidays, when a break would probably be a good idea, but from my experience on the CbC discussions, I'd suggest staying with a weekly beginning for the threads. That gives those involved something reliable to work with. Exceptions excepted (and accepted!), of course...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

What about occasional discussion of movie/extended dvd comparative content? For example, in


* Concerning Hobbits; The Shire

There are interesting variations in speaker (Gandalf to Frodo vs. Bilbo writing in his book) and context (talking about what's been happening in the Third Age outside the Shire). In this specific case, with the extended dvd making more sense.

[Mister Underhill]

That looks like a good breakdown, alatar. While you work on that "Welcome" thread, one or the other of us should soon think about a short forum-wide Announcement post that I can throw up to start to generate awareness.

[alatar]

Rumors of my death are premature...

No, I didn't die or go into hiding. Been busy, but finally the 'Welcome' text is done (hopefully worthy of the 'Downs,' but that remains to be seen). I'm going to hammer out the first two threads (Prologue and the Shire/Hobbits scenes) to make sure that I'm ahead of the game, then I think that we can launch. If anything needs to be vetted or proofread, let me know and I'll send it along.

Sorry for the delay, and thanks for your patience.

[Mister Underhill]

Okay, looks like things are almost ready. I'll build the sub-forum soon, perhaps tomorrow, perhaps even today if I find a few spare minutes. We can post the "Welcome" thread, then link to it from a short, forum-wide Announcement. We'll just leave it at that for a few days or a week to build awareness, and then get the ball rolling. Sound good?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think I would be interested in posting to a discussion like this...

But I gotta say now, whoever was in charge of the lighting on those films oughtta be shot!

[Lush]

I think this is a fab idea.