Mim the petty dwarf

[the real findorfin]

What is up with Mim. I didn't think he was too bad when he left Amon Ruath (was that him?) but then he was deservedly slain by Turin. Why?

Can someone give me a quick history and the bad things he did.

Thanks

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: the real findorfin ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Actually Mîm was killed by Húrin, who ran into him in what was left of Nargothrond after his release by Morgoth.

What the Petty-Dwarf had done essentially was to betray Túrin and his outlaws by leading Orcs to the hidden entrance to his halls on Amon Rûdh, where they had set up their base of operations. This is understandable since Túrin and company had killed his son, Khîm and taken over his home. Unless my memory deceives, Húrin killed him for speaking out of turn. He was more sinned against than sinning in my opinion.

[vanwalossien]

Húrin killed him for speaking out of turn. He was more sinned against than sinning in my opinion.

Didn't he claim the treasures of Nargothrond? Haven't got the Silm here, but I think he said something about that the dwarves had been there before the elves, and that he only claimed what should've been his. I don't think he was that bad. As one single, old dwarf he wouldn't be that much of a threath would he? But I can kinda understand Húrin though.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: vanwalossien ]

[Aule]

Betraying anyone to Orcs is a massive sin and deservedly got his comeupance

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Yeah, but a factor in his favour, is the fact that he asked the Orcs not to slay Turin, who he liked and got on with well

[vanwalossien]

Yes, and his son was killed, after all. Who'd even consider being nice to someone that killed your son?

[Aule]

its still inexcusable, to betray anyone to orcs and there dark master is the same as treachery. What happened to him was sad but he could have found a different way to gain revenge, like attempting to kill them all.

[Legolas]

You reap what you sow, Aule.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

And nobody does metaphorical agriculture like Túrin. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Morgoth Bauglir]

he tried killing beleg, turins freind

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

He wasn't quite as good at killing Beleg as Túrin turned out to be, though.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I always thought that Turin was pretty damn bossy about Mim's home. Mim was trying to save his own life by giving the Orcs something in return. Why should Mim really care about all these Men who had taken over his life?

Anyway, I don't think Mim was really that bad. On the other hand, Hurin was justified in slaying him for betraying his son.

Neither Turin or Mim were angels.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think Mim had a right to hate the Elves. They hunted down his people and took their realm, Nargothond. Androg, the terminally stupid man who killed his son, so there was a lot of rage built up there. Beleg also undone Mim's curse on Androg, and he refused to give him the Lemba's. Any ideas on how old he is? I'd say 700.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

700? What makes you think that?

[the phantom]

Sure Mim had some chips on his shoulders that could be used as excuses, but let's face it, even if some of Turin's men weren't the best, Turin and Beleg were doing their best to control their forces and oppose Morgoth, the enemy of the world. Mim, by betraying their position to the servants of Morgoth, essentially was saying "I'm on Morgoth's side". You're either with him or against him. No true and noble foe of Morgoth would make terms with his servants, particularly if those terms involved the slaying of his foes.

Yeah, Mim had a rough time, blah blah excuses, but there's no excuse for being in league with Morgoth, end of story. Hurin struck him down for his willful betrayal, and rightly so.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Mim, by betraying their position to the servants of Morgoth, essentially was saying "I'm on Morgoth's side".

This is almost certainly how Tolkien would have seen the situation, since the opposition of Morgoth is the acknowledgement of Eru's right to sole divine honour. By this argument, anyone who upholds that tenet is automatically in the right, no matter what actions they take in so doing; and by the same token anyone who allies with Morgoth, whatever their reasons may be, is in the wrong.

This is all very well: Mîm's actions are selfish, short-sighted and in opposition to the cause of the common good. My argument is that Túrin could have avoided the entire situation simply by not forcing someone whose son his men had just killed to offer his force hospitality. Had he sought out a different hideaway, perhaps leaving behind some token of apology, the Petty-Dwarf would have had much less inclination and no opportunity to betray him. Perhaps if his men were a little more disciplined the entire situation could have been avoided in the first place; but one has to possess discipline before one can inspire it in others, and self-discipline is not Túrin's strong suit.

My point is that this is just another example of how Túrin plays into Morgoth's hands at every turn. Mîm, if left alone, would never have had any dealings with either side. He was, in many ways, a mean and petty character, yet he was originally neutral and could have gone either way. When Túrin's band of outlaws turned up, killed off his son, barged into his home and treated him like a servant, they awoke in him a natural resentment and desire for revenge. Since he was obviously incapable of seeking retribution alone, he turned to the only potential ally he could find. Granted, this ally was someone whom he should have seen as his enemy; but like a lot of small people with a grievance he wasn't interested in the big picture; just getting some measure of redress for himself.

By the same token, Húrin's killing of Mîm is justified in that he finds the betrayer of his son claiming the treasure and halls that Túrin had liberated in killing Glaurung. I didn't say that Mîm was noble or just; only that the enemies of Morgoth brought a lot of misfortune to his door, and that this turned him against them. Húrin himself railed against his allies for much lesser ills after his release, and he was one of the noblest of Men. Mîm is a weaker vessel altogether.

All of which leads me to the question: was the curse that Morgoth placed on Húrin's family one of eternal stupidity? They certainly seem adept at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Mim was trying to bargain for his life by dealing with the enemy. While probably 'wrong' it's still understandable.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I doubt that he needed much persuading. I expect that he ensured Túrin's survival in recognition of his promise of weregild for Khîm; he certainly owed nobody else any favours. Ironically enough, this offer of ransom gave Mîm a claim on at least some of the treasures of Nargothrond, which we can assume to have passed to Túrin.

[Kuruharan]

*TANGENT TIME*

By this argument, anyone who upholds that tenet is automatically in the right, no matter what actions they take in so doing

I don't know about that. I'm not sure that the actions of somebody would be considered right (by Eru) even if the individual in question was acting in the name of Eru. Some of the actions of Turin, for example, might fall into this category. (Even though its not in the context of Middle earth, the Crusades also come to mind as an example.)

However, it is certainly true that Turin never intentionally aided Morgoth, while Mim did.

*END TANGENT TIME*

[HerenIstarion]

Hurin was in the state of darkened mind when he omitted this. If the meeting were to occur after his conversation with Melian, he might have forgiven Mim. But those are only might have beens.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

I think he is 700 because, it is probable that he had been around before the Noldor's coming to Belerialand, and he mentions something about being very old. So let's take the average Dwarf age to be 250ish, too be very old he would have to be double or treble that.

[Gryphon Hall]

He wasn't quite as good at killing Beleg as Túrin turned out to be, though.

I know that shouldn't sound funny, but it did to me. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Sorry.

Mim, Túrin and Húrin were all probably just at the wrong place at the wrong time so very often at that time, thanks to Morgoth. When I read the chapter on Túrin in the Silm, I just thought that all that happened was unfortunate, and none really deserved anything they got. Just some major **** happening. Can't help feeling sorry for Mim, even if he did all those really terrible things.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I know that shouldn't sound funny, but it did to me.

Yes it should. Thanks.

I'm not sure that the actions of somebody would be considered right (by Eru) even if the individual in question was acting in the name of Eru.

You're right. However, acting in his name and acting in his interests are two very different things. This has already been posted, but it was the basis of my point, so I'll post it again here:

In the LotR the conflict is not basically about 'Freedom', though that is naturally involved. It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour.

Now admittedly this refers to The Lord of the Rings and not to the story of Húrin and his family, but to my mind it must be even more applicable to the wars against Morgoth.

This is something of a tangent, so I suggest that one of us starts a new thread if we're going to discuss it in depth.

And I agree, Gryphon Hall: everyone involved in the story was in the wrong place at the wrong time, although anything that looks like bad luck can be attributed to Morgoth's curse. I do feel, though, that Túrin especially, but also Morwen and Nienor, always seem to choose the most unwise course of action possible.