NO! Take us South! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

08-30-2003, 02:22 PM

After the Entmoot and the Ents decide not to go to war(which I didn't like, it changes the people's view of the charecter, just like making Faramir take them out of the way, but ah well) But anyways after the Entmoot and they choose not to go to war, Fangorn says "I will take you to the western edge of the forest and from there you can go north to your homeland."Isn't Fangorn Forest's western edge against the Misty Mountains? They still would have to go south, then west through the gap of rohan and still go past Saruman? Just thinking this as I watch my personal copy of TTT for the second time.....Oh and one more note, didn't it seem that the elves died a little easy? Aren't they supposed to be like the most elite and best fighters? It's not like they were out of practice, I'm sure they were quite busy defending Lorien...Maybe I shoulda made two posts...Ah well

Elfstone · 08-30-2003, 07:03 PM

Yeah, that is a bit wrong when you think about it. Unfortunately I have lent out my copy of TTT, so I can't check it by the text.And I'm with you on the Ent's characters being compromised by them deciding not to go to war. The worst part of the whole thing is when Treebeard gets to Isengard and sees the destruction there. First, he reacts like he had no idea! Yeah, some tree sheppard And then he lets out a scream, and suddenly every Ent from here to Timbucto appears, and all ready for fighting! Am I supposed to believe that they all just happened to be standing 20 feet deep in the forest?Why Jackson couldn't just have them decide to go to war and march together to Isengard is beyond me. Just another example of him, Fran, and Philippa deciding they can do Tolkien better than Tolkien, I guess [ August 30, 2003: Message edited by: Elfstone ][ September 01, 2003: Message edited by: Elfstone ]

Daisy Brambleburr · 08-31-2003, 09:19 AM

Maybe at that point Treebeard was closer to the Western edge than the Southern edge? Or perhaps he thought that the hobbits would be hidden better if they went down by the mountains than if they went by the more open southern side? Sorry if I'm not making much sense, I don't have my maps with me right now. And Elves may be very elite but even the best warriors can get shot by a well aimed arrow or crossbow (as Boromir proved). And, to be honest, I didn't get the impression that they died easily anyway. But perhaps it's just me.Hope that helped a little!

08-31-2003, 10:02 AM

You people should always use Google Image Search if your lacking a map.... Let's see...here... <A HREF="http://img-fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/images/mapmiddleearth.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://img-fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/images/mapmiddleearth.jpg</A> Look at that. Fangorn's West End is clearly against The Misty's.And when I said the elves died easily, I didn't mean with getting hit by the ballista or archery, I meant when they breached the wall and it became sword on sword combat, I think that most of the time, the elves should have won. But when they fall back to the keep, it's like none of the elves even made it there. Elves have ages to practice, where as the Uruk's are just handed a weapon and sent off to war. I'm not saying that none of them should have died, but where do you think Aragorn learned to fight? Oh and where did those horses come from? That Aragorn and Theoden rode out on? Was there like a hidden stable somewhere or what?

Elentári · 08-31-2003, 10:06 AM

Well considering the trouble the Company had when trying to cross the Misty Mountains the first time...it wouldn't be too wise to try it again, would it? Unless there was no other way. And yes, I can't understand why the Ents didn't agree to war straight away (well relatively) like in the book. It would have saved on time, which could have been given to say establishing Faramir's GOOD CHARACTER instead of mutilating him like PJ did.

Lord of Angmar · 08-31-2003, 10:08 AM

Since the general direction of the Shire from Fangorn is Northwest, perhaps Treebeard just assumed that they could take a pass through the Mistys on the Western flanks of Fangorn. It would be the least roundabout way for them to be on their way to the Shire.

Elentári · 09-01-2003, 04:40 AM

Yes, I suppose so...though surely an Ent would be wiser than to try to make some little hobbits go home via the mountains??Now, I must admit, when I saw this topic I thought it was about Éomer telling his éored (or whatever they're called) that they would ride north- when in the book they had just come from the north!

dragoneyes · 09-01-2003, 06:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, I suppose so...though surely an Ent would be wiser than to try to make some little hobbits go home via the mountains??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If he hasn't even realised that a huge section of his forest has been mutilated, I wouldn't be surprised if the dangers of the misty mountains slipped his mind.

09-01-2003, 07:19 AM

Ahh yes, true...I'm sorry, I had confused the Ents from the books with the Ents in the films...dreadful mistake as they are so different...won't happen again, I assure you...

HCIsland · 09-01-2003, 11:01 AM

I don't have a problem with this bit. Let's face it, there is no easy way from Fangorn back to The Shire without using the Gap of Rohan. Once the decision was made to have the Entmoot decision be to not get involved in the war, then describing the direction to take the hobbits as west (to the north-west corner of the forest) isn't any worse than any other alternative. For what PJ wanted to do, it was more important to establish that Pippin wanted to get Treebeard to turn around than to put in what would esentially be more unnecessary dialogue about finding a path home for the hobbits.Feel free to disagree with the decision to change the outcome of Entmoot, but once that decision was made I think the decision as to Treebeard's initial direction becomes somewhat forced.H.C.

Dimaldaeon · 09-01-2003, 12:14 PM

As to Theodens charge, look closely only EIGHT!!!!!!!!! riders follow him. Bit of a heroic last stand (or last ride) than a tactical act

Daisy Brambleburr · 09-01-2003, 01:12 PM

But then again, the compass directions are pretty screwed up in the movie. Heck, Legolas says that the uruk hai are turning North East to Isengard, but Isengard is in the other direction! Lol, but seriously... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't have a problem with this bit. Let's face it, there is no easy way from Fangorn back to The Shire without using the Gap of Rohan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that HC is pretty much right about the unneccesary dialogue, and I genrally agree with the post. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You people should always use Google Image Search if your lacking a map.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My computer is so slow it's untrue. For me to find and load a map would take an age. And if I opened another window it would crash with the strain! In future I will keep a book by my computer.And about the elves dying easily issue, you've got to remember that there were 300 elves against 10,000 uruk hai. So even if the elves are great fighters the uruk hai are going to be coming at them in waves and waves, non stop. After a point they're going to get tiered, even if they are elves. And if they are off their guard for even a second they could snuff it. The uruk hai were bred for fighting, the were armed and armoured well, pretty darn huge and their only thought was to kill, no matter what. And the elves were hopelessly outnumbered, and they didn't expect the deeping wall to explode either! But I still didn't get the impression that not many of them made it, sorry!

mollecon · 09-01-2003, 01:21 PM

Of course HCIsland is right! Instead of thinking 'is this close to the books?', you might consider 'will this work in a movie & to a non-Tolkien audience?'.And, in the books the Misty Mountains weren't described as being that high close to Isengard - Treebeard could have taken the Hobbits close to a place where they only had to walk down some path to get to the low lands.

Rose Cotton · 09-05-2003, 08:08 PM

I can tell you without question that all the Merry/Pippin/Treebeard parts were aimed at growing the hobbits' characters. In that I felt PJ did a fantastic job. While in the FotR Merry and Pip were just comic relief they now had become rich dramatic characters. But when roles are expanded other roles are hurt. In this case the Ents recieved less character. Being more of a hobbit fan then an ent fan myself I didn't mind the change at all.As for why so many elves died and Aragorn lived? Because it's written in black in white in Tolkiens books that Aragorn lives through the books. Pit him against a thousand orcs, throw him off a cliff, give him a bath, or whatever you do to him he has to be there at the end because that's what the books say. As for the elves, since they aren't even supposed to be there PJ can do whatever he wants with them. Ah, the "magic" of Hollywood.

Finwe · 09-05-2003, 09:10 PM

I think that the main reason that Pippin said that was to make the character seem smart. In the Fellowship of the Ring, he was made up to be a slightly foolish, comical, immature little Hobbit. Now, he is sort of "coming into" his intelligence. He is truly realizing how big the mess that they're in is. After Merry told him that "there might not be a Shire to return to," Pippin realized that they had to DO something. And little Pippin went ahead and DID something, he persuaded Treebeard to turn around, and eventually, caused the destruction of Isengard.

Elentári · 09-07-2003, 10:34 AM

Ahh! So that's probably one reason why the whole Ent thing was changed, because of Pippin. I was wondering about that.

08-30-2003, 02:22 PM	#1
OrcChieftain Guest Posts: n/a	NO! Take us South! After the Entmoot and the Ents decide not to go to war(which I didn't like, it changes the people's view of the charecter, just like making Faramir take them out of the way, but ah well) But anyways after the Entmoot and they choose not to go to war, Fangorn says "I will take you to the western edge of the forest and from there you can go north to your homeland."<P>Isn't Fangorn Forest's western edge against the Misty Mountains? They still would have to go south, then west through the gap of rohan and still go past Saruman? Just thinking this as I watch my personal copy of TTT for the second time.....<P>Oh and one more note, didn't it seem that the elves died a little easy? Aren't they supposed to be like the most elite and best fighters? It's not like they were out of practice, I'm sure they were quite busy defending Lorien...Maybe I shoulda made two posts...Ah well

08-30-2003, 07:03 PM	#2
Elfstone Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 30	Yeah, that is a bit wrong when you think about it. Unfortunately I have lent out my copy of TTT, so I can't check it by the text.<P>And I'm with you on the Ent's characters being compromised by them deciding not to go to war. The worst part of the whole thing is when Treebeard gets to Isengard and sees the destruction there. First, he reacts like he had no idea! Yeah, some tree sheppard And then he lets out a scream, and suddenly every Ent from here to Timbucto appears, and all ready for fighting! Am I supposed to believe that they all just happened to be standing 20 feet deep in the forest?<P>Why Jackson couldn't just have them decide to go to war and march together to Isengard is beyond me. Just another example of him, Fran, and Philippa deciding they can do Tolkien better than Tolkien, I guess <P>[ August 30, 2003: Message edited by: Elfstone ]<p>[ September 01, 2003: Message edited by: Elfstone ]

08-31-2003, 09:19 AM	#3
Daisy Brambleburr Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 334	Maybe at that point Treebeard was closer to the Western edge than the Southern edge? Or perhaps he thought that the hobbits would be hidden better if they went down by the mountains than if they went by the more open southern side? Sorry if I'm not making much sense, I don't have my maps with me right now. <P>And Elves may be very elite but even the best warriors can get shot by a well aimed arrow or crossbow (as Boromir proved). And, to be honest, I didn't get the impression that they died easily anyway. But perhaps it's just me.<P>Hope that helped a little! __________________ 'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.'

08-31-2003, 10:02 AM	#4
OrcChieftain Guest Posts: n/a	You people should always use Google Image Search if your lacking a map....<BR>Let's see...here... <A HREF="http://img-fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/images/mapmiddleearth.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://img-fan.theonering.net/middleearthtours/images/mapmiddleearth.jpg</A> <P>Look at that. Fangorn's West End is clearly against The Misty's.<P>And when I said the elves died easily, I didn't mean with getting hit by the ballista or archery, I meant when they breached the wall and it became sword on sword combat, I think that most of the time, the elves should have won. But when they fall back to the keep, it's like none of the elves even made it there. Elves have ages to practice, where as the Uruk's are just handed a weapon and sent off to war. I'm not saying that none of them should have died, but where do you think Aragorn learned to fight? <P>Oh and where did those horses come from? That Aragorn and Theoden rode out on? Was there like a hidden stable somewhere or what?

08-31-2003, 10:06 AM	#5
Elentári Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon... Posts: 113	Well considering the trouble the Company had when trying to cross the Misty Mountains the first time...it wouldn't be too wise to try it again, would it? Unless there was no other way. And yes, I can't understand why the Ents didn't agree to war straight away (well relatively) like in the book. It would have saved on time, which could have been given to say establishing Faramir's GOOD CHARACTER instead of mutilating him like PJ did. __________________ Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Spread the word! The 1st annual Golden Ring Marathon! October 20th 2005! Tell Everyone! Frodo Lives!

08-31-2003, 10:08 AM	#6
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Since the general direction of the Shire from Fangorn is Northwest, perhaps Treebeard just assumed that they could take a pass through the Mistys on the Western flanks of Fangorn. It would be the least roundabout way for them to be on their way to the Shire. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

09-01-2003, 04:40 AM	#7
Elentári Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon... Posts: 113	Yes, I suppose so...though surely an Ent would be wiser than to try to make some little hobbits go home via the mountains??<P>Now, I must admit, when I saw this topic I thought it was about Éomer telling his éored (or whatever they're called) that they would ride north- when in the book they had just come from the north! __________________ Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Spread the word! The 1st annual Golden Ring Marathon! October 20th 2005! Tell Everyone! Frodo Lives!

09-01-2003, 06:40 AM	#8
dragoneyes Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Completely lost track, sorry! Posts: 733	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, I suppose so...though surely an Ent would be wiser than to try to make some little hobbits go home via the mountains??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If he hasn't even realised that a huge section of his forest has been mutilated, I wouldn't be surprised if the dangers of the misty mountains slipped his mind. __________________ "We might succeed in roasting Pippin alive inside." - Frodo.

09-01-2003, 07:19 AM	#9
elentári Guest Posts: n/a	Ahh yes, true...I'm sorry, I had confused the Ents from the books with the Ents in the films...dreadful mistake as they are so different...won't happen again, I assure you...

09-01-2003, 11:01 AM	#10
HCIsland Zombie Cannibal Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,000	I don't have a problem with this bit. Let's face it, there is no easy way from Fangorn back to The Shire without using the Gap of Rohan. Once the decision was made to have the Entmoot decision be to not get involved in the war, then describing the direction to take the hobbits as west (to the north-west corner of the forest) isn't any worse than any other alternative. For what PJ wanted to do, it was more important to establish that Pippin wanted to get Treebeard to turn around than to put in what would esentially be more unnecessary dialogue about finding a path home for the hobbits.<P>Feel free to disagree with the decision to change the outcome of Entmoot, but once that decision was made I think the decision as to Treebeard's initial direction becomes somewhat forced.<P>H.C. __________________ "Stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed myself. Have I not tasted it now many nights upon my tongue, foreboding that worse yet lay in the dregs." -Denethor

09-01-2003, 12:14 PM	#11
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	As to Theodens charge, look closely only EIGHT!!!!!!!!! riders follow him. Bit of a heroic last stand (or last ride) than a tactical act __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

09-01-2003, 01:12 PM	#12
Daisy Brambleburr Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 334	But then again, the compass directions are pretty screwed up in the movie. Heck, Legolas says that the uruk hai are turning North East to Isengard, but Isengard is in the other direction! Lol, but seriously...<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't have a problem with this bit. Let's face it, there is no easy way from Fangorn back to The Shire without using the Gap of Rohan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think that HC is pretty much right about the unneccesary dialogue, and I genrally agree with the post. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> You people should always use Google Image Search if your lacking a map....<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My computer is so slow it's untrue. For me to find and load a map would take an age. And if I opened another window it would crash with the strain! In future I will keep a book by my computer.<P>And about the elves dying easily issue, you've got to remember that there were 300 elves against 10,000 uruk hai. So even if the elves are great fighters the uruk hai are going to be coming at them in waves and waves, non stop. After a point they're going to get tiered, even if they are elves. And if they are off their guard for even a second they could snuff it. The uruk hai were bred for fighting, the were armed and armoured well, pretty darn huge and their only thought was to kill, no matter what. And the elves were hopelessly outnumbered, and they didn't expect the deeping wall to explode either! But I still didn't get the impression that not many of them made it, sorry! __________________ 'What news from the South, O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve? Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve.'

09-01-2003, 01:21 PM	#13
mollecon Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 188	Of course HCIsland is right! Instead of thinking 'is this close to the books?', you might consider 'will this work in a movie & to a non-Tolkien audience?'.<P>And, in the books the Misty Mountains weren't described as being that high close to Isengard - Treebeard could have taken the Hobbits close to a place where they only had to walk down some path to get to the low lands.

09-05-2003, 08:08 PM	#14
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	I can tell you without question that all the Merry/Pippin/Treebeard parts were aimed at growing the hobbits' characters. In that I felt PJ did a fantastic job. While in the FotR Merry and Pip were just comic relief they now had become rich dramatic characters. But when roles are expanded other roles are hurt. In this case the Ents recieved less character. Being more of a hobbit fan then an ent fan myself I didn't mind the change at all.<P>As for why so many elves died and Aragorn lived? Because it's written in black in white in Tolkiens books that Aragorn lives through the books. Pit him against a thousand orcs, throw him off a cliff, give him a bath, or whatever you do to him he has to be there at the end because that's what the books say. <BR>As for the elves, since they aren't even supposed to be there PJ can do whatever he wants with them. <BR>Ah, the "magic" of Hollywood. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

09-05-2003, 09:10 PM	#15
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I think that the main reason that Pippin said that was to make the character seem smart. In the Fellowship of the Ring, he was made up to be a slightly foolish, comical, immature little Hobbit. Now, he is sort of "coming into" his intelligence. He is truly realizing how big the mess that they're in is. After Merry told him that "there might not be a Shire to return to," Pippin realized that they had to DO something. And little Pippin went ahead and DID something, he persuaded Treebeard to turn around, and eventually, caused the destruction of Isengard. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-07-2003, 10:34 AM	#16
Elentári Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Up a tree somewhere in Caras Galadhon... Posts: 113	Ahh! So that's probably one reason why the whole Ent thing was changed, because of Pippin. I was wondering about that. __________________ Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs? Spread the word! The 1st annual Golden Ring Marathon! October 20th 2005! Tell Everyone! Frodo Lives!