Time to fix Gandalf versus the Witchking

I am a fan of the movies but it is time to fix the scene where the witch king breaks Gandalfs' staff. Someone who knows video has to edit the scene - keep the part where Gandalf meets the WitchKing and have him say " do you not know death when you see it? This is my hour" Then cut out the part where the Witchking breaks Gandallf's staff, show Gandalf on his horse - and not on the ground , cut back to the Witchking's face and then hear the sound of the horn or Rohan .Then show the Witchking flying off.

Then put it up on YouTube. After some time it will become the official scene in the hearts of fans.

I don't know anyone who is a fan of the books who likes this scene the way it is.

With all the videos and clips of the films already on the net I would guess it would not be difficult at all to do.

That scene ruins the films IMHO.

Someone out there please fix the biggest flaw of the films.

You are right I ought to get a life, nevertheless it is something that ought to be done.

If you agree with this please tell other fans.

[alatar]

Jonathan, welcome to the Downs!

What a wonderful idea. I'm guessing that the reason that it hasn't been done is that one is messing with copyrighted material, and getting that to load into editing software is never fun (is it even legal?).

I'd be happy with the scene 'as is' (shudders) if only Peter Jackson would put a slim smile on the prone Gandalf's face after the Witch-King finishes his brag. That little addition, to me, would change the scene completely by showing that, even when down, Gandalf did not despair and knew a 'dead man talking' when he saw one.

[Lindale]

That part was all right; otherwise, it would all be too-stereotypical Hero that does not know or show fear. It showed (a bit?) of Gandalf's human-ness, because even in the books Olorin said he was afraid. (See the UT, The Istari, I don't have that book right now in my pocket). In my opinion Jackson did a pretty good job at the movies, and though the book version is almost always better than the movie, he interpreted the book really good.

PJ & his 2 assistants to this day have no idea how much damage they have done to the final film with this scene. Their commentary on the scene is of sheer foolishness & cluelessness.

[Knight of Gondor]

Actually, this would be a cinch. I'll see if I can wrangle it today, but it might have to wait until the weekend. You can help - go to YouTube and find an already-existing video of the Gandalf-Witchking encounter.

[obloquy]

There's nothing wrong with this scene existing in the movie, as Gandalf's entire nature has been adapted for the film version. The scene plays out as it should.

[ArathorofBarahir]

I happen to like the scene as it is...I mean it can't be the exact same as it was in the book. After all, the movies are an adaptation of the books.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by ArathorofBarahir

I happen to like the scene as it is...I mean it can't be the exact same as it was in the book. After all, the movies are an adaptation of the books.

I don't like the scene, but I like your point. Would we really be happy if he didn't change anything? I mean, small surprises can be pleasent. Things like Boromir teaching Merry and Pip how to fight, Elves coming to Helms Deep(to show that the elves did help without having to explain border wars), and other various things.

[alatar]

The scene makes sense as is if you chart the fall of Gandalf from leader to hanger on, and Aragorn from reluctant errand boy (bring Frodo Baggage to Rivendell) to leader of the forces of the free. Gandalf has to slowly exit the stage to make Aragorn appear the more, and so in PJ's world it (I guess) works.

And to surprises: Sure, I'm all for them if they are well done, but if another main character were to fall off a cliff and return...

[Finduilas]

Well, of course. As I said, I don't like the Gandalf part. I don't like any of the changes that ruin/cowardize any of the characters. No movie maker has that right, though I do beleive he has a right to make such changes as I meantioned above.

[Sauron the White]

JUst reread the section in the book and watched it in the EE of ROTK. I would have preferred it have stuck closer to the book especially with the flaming crown. I always liked that touch a great deal. But I did not see the film depiction as anything near cowardice on the part of Gandalf. I think Jackson was trying to show just how powerful the WK is which makes the upcoming scene with Eowyn even more powerful and dramatic.

Sure, Gandalf is unhorsed and both he and Shadowfax show a lot more reaction than in the book. But I took his facial expressions on the ground to mean he was marshalling his strength for a return volley with the Witchking. But before that can happen, we get the horns blowing and the WK departs.

I think it works this way - and there is nothing wrong with it - but I would have liked to see it a bit more like the book.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

I think Jackson was trying to show just how powerful the WK is which makes the upcoming scene with Eowyn even more powerful and dramatic.

...which he then kills with Eowyn, Witch-King's bane, shown almost crying as she flees from the gimpy Gothmog.

[Sauron the White]

Eowyn killing the WK was a moment of great heroism and strength. It so sapped her of energy and strength that she was reduced to temporary physical weakness. Kind of like an untrained Dwarf running a 26 mile marathon then crawling to the refreshment tent .... oh never mind

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Eowyn killing the WK was a moment of great heroism and strength. It so sapped her of energy and strength that she was reduced to temporary physical weakness. Kind of like an untrained Dwarf running a 26 mile marathon then crawling to the refreshment tent .... oh never mind

PJ just didn't know when to stop. I'd been happy if Eowyn used up her last molecule of glycogen slaying the foul dwimmerlaik, swooned and knelt to hear Theoden's last words before 'dying' herself. But nooo...

[Knight of Gondor]

If you people don't shut up about the glycogen...

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Knight of Gondor

If you people don't shut up about the glycogen...

Seriously... start your own glycogen arguement thread...

[alatar]

One smile was all it would've taken...

Note that not one molecule of glycogen was harmed during this post.

[Finduilas]

That looks terrible!

But I get your point.

[alatar]

I agree. But I didn't have a good distortion program to make Ian smile, and so used what I had on hand to make the point.

Plus it looks somewhat like those wax lips you get around Halloween time.

[Groin Redbeard]

With this scene I would have liked to have seen Peter Jackson keep more to the books, or at least have Gandalf put up some sort of a fight.

[Galendor]

There are probably 20 or so scenes in the movies, this among them, that if redone slighly or cut out entirely, would have greatly improved the movies by better matching the books without losing much or any "mass appeal". I wish it had been done! Certainly if Tolkien himself could have been consulted and obeyed, the movies would have been greatly improved, and I think without necessarily alienating those viewers with little or no knowledge of the books, or reducing profits.

Sauron the White - regarding the glycogen use issue in the runner's muscles, if this is a concern then how do we explain Shadowfax? This horse ran at incredible speeds for very long distances, far beyond the ability of any "normal" horse. This isn't physiologically possible in the real world. If an argument is made that Gimli could not sustain his long run, then wouldn't the same argument apply to Shadowfax's performance? If not, why?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Galendor

There are probably 20 or so scenes in the movies, this among them, that if redone slighly or cut out entirely, would have greatly improved the movies by better matching the books without losing much or any "mass appeal". I wish it had been done! Certainly if Tolkien himself could have been consulted and obeyed, the movies would have been greatly improved, and I think without necessarily alienating those viewers with little or no knowledge of the books, or reducing profits.

Do you have a list of scenes, and if you have that much time on your hands , could you give the details - whether the scene should be deleted or altered?

[Eönwë]

I don't like that scene. It is the only scene that it made sense to get rid of (obviously the others had to be cut because otherwise it would be to long, but still, they are good additions). The Witch-king could never even get near beating Gandalf. Olorin (Gandalf) was a Maiar and the witch-king was a human (though I do think he was a "black numenorean" so he might have had some Maiar blood in him after all, but Gandalf is fully Maiar). A human, however powerful, could never kill, or even win a fight against a Maiar. And Olorin was chosen to help the peoples of middle earth, in the same that Eonwe was (not being as strong as the target but still being comparatively strong to them). This scene could never happen. Gandalf killed a Balrog, a Maiar, a being of divine descent, to get beaten by a man? The Balrog, by the way, was not even a servant of Sauron, but of Morgoth, not much weaker than Sauron, in fact. Gandalf was sent by Manwe, and even though he refused at first, Gandalf went for a reason (varda makes a sneaky comment that hints that he is stronger than Saruman (curumo in Valinor). Gandalf is an immortal, and could not properly be killed anyway. Also, the witch-king has neither the authority nor the power to break Gandalf's staff as he did during the movie.

[alatar]

Eönwë, you obviously haven't read the 525 posts on this thread, which will demonstrate, as it did to me, that not everyone sees it your and my way.

Welcome to the Downs, by the by.

[Sauron the White]

from Galendor

Sauron the White - regarding the glycogen use issue in the runner's muscles, if this is a concern then how do we explain Shadowfax? This horse ran at incredible speeds for very long distances, far beyond the ability of any "normal" horse. This isn't physiologically possible in the real world. If an argument is made that Gimli could not sustain his long run, then wouldn't the same argument apply to Shadowfax's performance? If not, why?

Shadowfax is described as one of the mearas - horses of the gods. It was said that Orome brought the first meara to Middle-earth direct from Valinor. I believe that puts him in a far different class than a mere dwarf.

[Quempel]

So Gimli is to be judged by real human standards, yet Shadowfax is to not be judged by real horse standards? Aulë created the dwarves. If Shadowfax is a creation of a Vala he is allowed special powers. But 'mere' dwarves, also a creation of a Vala, are not allowed any special powers. Which is it? Vala created beings have some special ablities or they don't. This is this.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel - you are confusing apples with cinderblocks. The Mearas were creatures of the Valar in Valinor and then exported to Middle- earth by Orome with their special genetics, abilities and talents. Dwarves are a creature of Middle-earth. They were not given the special abilities from Valinor as the mearas were.

They are two extremely different races and breeds of creatures. It is not logical or intellectually consistent to infer that the rules which apply to one apply to the other simply because they both occupy Middle-earth in the later part of the Third Age.

[Quempel]

The dwarves were created by a Vala, in middle earth before Valinor was created. It's quite intresting the logic twist you seem to be using. If the story doesn't fit in your world you twist it around so it does.

Unlike Elves and Humans or, in Middle Earth, Men, the Dwarves are not counted among the Children of Ilúvatar. They were created by Aulë the Valar.


And wasn't Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse, and the original lord of all horses-the first mearas? but Shadowfax was not an actual meara that was from Valinor, but a meara from middle earth descended from the meara's of Valinor? Sure he was the horse lord of the third age, but he was not Felarof.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel ... could you please cite where it says that either
a- the Valar gave short, heavy, dwarves in cumbersome gear the power to run 45 miles per day without training, or
b- one of the Valar waved a magic wand and specifically gave Gimli that same ability

You are confusing two very different things here or are perhaps really stretching a bad argument for what purpose I do not know.

[Quempel]

No I am simply calling your bluff. You say that Shadowfax was able to run and endure more because he was a Meara from Valinor, but he is not from Valinor, he is a meara from ME.

Yet with the same brush you say that Gimli, who is neither Elf nor Man and whose race was created by a Vala is under the same standards as Man.

So either those created by the Valar have different more extraordinary powers and don't fall under the same rules as Elf and Men, or they don't have extraordinary powers.

And I would like you to point out where it says dwarves can't run 45 miles per day. You keep saying they can't, yet you say Shadowfax is able to out run mortal horses because of his special abilities that he recieved from the Valar.

Either mythical creatures have special ablities or they don't. One can not pick an choose which mythical creature has certain abilities to fit into one's closed view of things.

Dwarves were not human. They did not have the same qualities as human's. They were in fact older than Elves, but Eru made Aule put them to sleep so the Eldar could be the first born. Dwarves lived longer than human, even the Dunedain. But according to you since they were short and stocky they must fall under the lowest possible human standards. They are not human.

I still find it funny that you can be fine with a horse, a perfect specimen of a horse with strong legs and a flowing mane, to be able to have abilities above and beyond regular horses. But a short stocky dwarf can't do anything exceptional.

[Sauron the White]

Quempel --- you sound like you have a problem more with me than with the point being discussed. I thought I was clear from the start. Please review the above posts and you will find out that it was not myself who brought up the subject of Gimli and Shadowfax. It was Galendor who asked me about it bringing up Shadowfax. I gave Galendor the answer and apparently it sufficed. But then you got involved refusing to accept it despite it being rather clear.

I asked you to clearly support your Gimli theory with evidence but your reply was firm and short. NO. That says pretty much all you need to say. But to be polite here it is again -and for the last time.

The mearas and the dwarves are two completly different creatures with completely different origins, characteristics, qualities and abilities. The mearas were created in Valinor by the Vala and exported to Middle-earth by Orome. They are not like other Middle-earth horses because their origins are in Valinor.

The dwarves were created for Middle-earth and are not of Valinor. There is no evidence they had the kind of abilities that you attribute to them. None. I asked you to show me evidence that

a- the Valar gave short, heavy, dwarves in cumbersome gear the power to run 45 miles per day without training, or
b- one of the Valar waved a magic wand and specifically gave Gimli that same ability

You refused to do so and simply said NO. End of discussion. All the theory in the world and all the attacking of me does not provide the evidence you were asked for and refused to provide to support your point. You have none.

[Quempel]

My point is that there are two sets of creatures/beings. Both created by the Valar, both with special abilities. Yet you refuse to acknowledge that dwarves have any ablities at all and assign to them human standards, when they are not human. Elves having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. Horses having special abilities is ok, dwarves no. Dunedain having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. All of this even though Tolkien said Dwarves are strong and have endurance (an endurance you equate with mine working, which is your assumption only) Why I do not know. I am supposing you have never seen a football lineman run 10 miles a day with full equipment on.


As for Gandalf vs. Witchking, the Wiki was a mere mortal stuck in a time-warp demon state. Gandalf was not. I think the changing/adding of that scene in the movie was a poor judgement on PJ's part.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, in a world where we can have semi-divine superhorses, why should we talk about 'mere' Dwarves? We know very little about Dwarven physiology, but what we do know says that they are amazingly tough, strong, immune to disease, and have amazing stamina.

Why therefore must we assume that Dwarves' physical chemistry is like ours?

You ask for evidence- the evidence is that Gimli did it.

[Sauron the White]

from William Cloud Hicklin

You ask for evidence- the evidence is that Gimli did it.

What that is evidence of is poor writing and lack of knowledge on the part of the author. It is very obvious that JRR Tolkien knew nothing of long distance running and it shows in this very example.

Is there evidence that Dwarves could do this feat other than Gimli? I see none and none has ever been presented when I asked for it.

I realize I am throwing stones through somebodys stained glass windows of the cathedral which gaurds the altar upon which they worship, BUT ... its evidence of poor research by Tolkien himself. You see good people, JRRT was human. He wrote one heck of a book - my personal favorite book for what that may be worth - but he was a human being and is such is human and flawed and can make mistakes. That does not make LOTR a bad book. Its still a great book. But its not divinely inspired and perfect.

from Quempel

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that dwarves have any ablities at all and assign to them human standards, when they are not human. Elves having special ablities is ok, dwarves no. Horses having special abilities is ok, dwarves no.

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

However, the ability to run 45 miles each day, and then repeat it for a second day and then a third day, all with no mentioned trained, all wearing heavy and cumbersome gear, and over varied terrain is not one of those abilities.


Shadowfax is not a mere horse. He is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. He is not a mere horse.

I am supposing you have never seen a football lineman run 10 miles a day with full equipment on.

There are many things in this world I have not yet seen and that is one of them. So what? This is this. This is not something else. We were not discussing the abilities of football lineman to run ten miles in full uniform.

[alatar]

Note that Dwarves, made by Aule, were designed to live in a world in which Melkor ruled supreme. That's from the Sil, though I haven't my copy on me to quote chapter and verse. Was the original horse a spirit, or something created?

But we've covered all of this before.

StW, I keep forgetting that you're the diorama guy.

[Quempel]

Well if Tolkien didn't have any knowledge about running, then it can be said he had even less knowledge of horse running, because no horse could do what Shadowfax did. And since we are applying the same standards to dwarves as we do real humans, it is only fair to apply the real horse standards to Shadowfax.


And I highly doubt Tolkien knew nothing of running, being he was in the armed forces during WWI, I would imagine that he actually did have to run while in the armed forces, since it's a pretty standard requirement for a standard soldier.

[Sauron the White]

Yes Alatar we have covered all this before. And in doing so cheesed off a bunch of people who kept saying ENOUGH ALREADY.

Dioramas? Yes I remember dioramas. In case anyone cares

http://www.flickr.com/photos/17649735@N00/?saved=1

[Quempel]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

You are putting words into my mouth that I did not speak or write. Dwarves indeed have abilities. They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so. They are fierce fighters when aroused and have amazing abilities with stone and rock. Yes indeedy they have some very wonderful abilities.

.

They are strong and sturdy and have endurance to work at backbreaking jobs when many men probably could not do so See you assume the wrong endurance, you assume it is endurance to do backbreaking jobs and only backbreaking jobs. It's your assumption and nothing more.

As for the linemen, they run more than 10 miles in full gear. And they are usually stocky men, much like dwarves. They do the 'back breaking' work on the field, they are not the svelt thin recievers who can run fast. But they run just as many miles as the recievers do, not as fast, but they still run it. And yes they do it for conditioning but with their full set of pads on, which are bigger and heavier than recievers. And as any good football coach knows it has to be with all the gear and pads on or they can't do it in the game. The same can be said for Gimli, sure he had all his gear on, sure he couldn't run the fastest, but that does not mean he could not run. Put Gimli's gear on Aragorn and I would bet Aragorn would crumble in less than a day.

And could you point out where it says Shadowfax is the best of a chosen breed of creatures created by the Valar in Valinor and exported to Middle-earth for very special purposes. Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses. Shadowfax descended from Felarof, Eorl the Young's horse. The best of Shadowfax's bread was Felarof. Is Felarof Shadofax's daddy, grand daddy, great grand daddy? It also says the mearas lived the same length as men in one place, so that would put a whole bunch of generations between Felarof and Shadowfax, even if the men were Dunedain.



Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

[Sauron the White]

from Quempel

Because the Sil and LoTR I have read says he is the descendant of those horses, not those horses.

Are you denying that Shadowfax was a member of the meares, a direct descendent of the special breed created in Valinor by the Valar? If you agree that he was one, I need not continue. If you deny that he was one, there is no point in arguing with you. Either way I see no reason to continue going around like two hamsters in a wheel.

Again, about the football lineman running ten miles? I have no memory of that debate. Again, this is this. This isn't something else. This is this. Dwarves are not football players. Their gear is not a football uniform. And now you bring Aragorn into it? This nearly leaves me speechless. Nearly.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Quempel

Alatar,

I have said the Dwarves were made by Aule, a Valar.

Sorry; I started with some point, began the research, then thought...what am I doing? Been here, done this wind up before.

Most likely I could post for both sides, having read the arguments and know (somewhat) the posters' points. Even considered using StW's superb miniature work as part of a reply, but...

I'm back to sitting this out until Eönwë responds to my last post.