The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-13-2004, 07:05 PM   #1
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Sting A Truly Proper Opening Text?

I noticed recently, as I idly opened up a newer copy of The Fellowship of the Ring, a text by a Mr. Peter S. Beagle. I never noticed it before, as I have always read the first American publication additions. And, I actually read it (which is quite an accomplishment for me, as I like to skip over anything other than Prologues...slothful am I). It gave me the feeling that Peter S. Beagle was not the kind of man to be writing an opening text for a novel of Tolkien. The man may praise Tolkien, but in just this short three paragraphs, he already seems to display some blatant opinions that do not really belong. I believe his last statement is especially questionable:

Quote:
We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers -- thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses.
Now, everyone is allowed to voice their own opinions (lord knows I haven't cherished that freedom!!), but I'm not sure why exactly this was placed at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings.

All of this I say, though what I read and how I understand those words. And I am not at all good at analyzing these types of things, so I was wondering if someone could straighten me out. I feel like I am making a biased assumption (I am not aware of who exactly Peter S. Beagle is -- yes, I know, I don't get out much: pity me, and so I rightly feel that I am being biased), but I cannot help but make it!!

-Durelin

Note: I searched for threads on Peter S. Beagle and such, and found none. If my searching skills are at a loss, I apologize profusely for giving you this inconvenience to delete.
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 07:31 PM   #2
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

I'm sure that many people in this world believe that many historical events were done for entirely the wrong reasons. For example, why do we celebrate or acknowledge the "discovery" of the Americas by Christopher Columbus, when in fact, it was ostensibly discovered thousands of years earlier by the Native Americans? Why do we consider him a hero, when the greatest thing that bloke did was wipe out whole races of Native Americans? Are we to honor murderers? What were the conquistadors? They were murderers who used the names of gold and god as excuses. Why do we honor them?

Part of the beauty of Lord of the Rings is that the "explorers," or heroes, are ordinary beings (for that world at least). Their only intention is to save the world that they are living in, and prevent war from devastating their homelands. They are willing to even die for that purpose. Now tell me, aren't those the true heroes that we should be honoring? I'm not saying that we should have an International Fellowship Day, but we need to start honoring the right heroes for the right reasons. For example, why can't we celebrete what Joan of Arc did? Her deeds were far greater than Columbus's seeming discovery. She gave up her life so that France would be free. Shouldn't we honor her for that? During the Crusades, when the fortress of Acre was being besieged by the Saracens, every single Templar in the city gave up their lives so that their loved ones could escape. Every last defender, wounded or hale, fought to the death, in a conflict reminiscent of the Fall of Gondolin. Tell me, why do we not honor them for that?
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 07:53 PM   #3
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Sting

Quote:
For example, why do we celebrate or acknowledge the "discovery" of the Americas by Christopher Columbus, when in fact, it was ostensibly discovered thousands of years earlier by the Native Americans? Why do we consider him a hero, when the greatest thing that bloke did was wipe out whole races of Native Americans? Are we to honor murderers? What were the conquistadors? They were murderers who used the names of gold and god as excuses. Why do we honor them?
Hmmmm...I wonder...would Tolkien have agreed with this? That's what I'm trying to point out. This is politics, here, and they do not belong in association with a deceased author's texts.

Quote:
are ordinary beings (for that world at least). Their only intention is to save the world that they are living in, and prevent war from devastating their homelands.
So, your saying good old Columbus (if it weren't for him, we would not have the USA - God bless it) was an evil, butchering, greedy, alien? What are ordinary beings then?

Quote:
Now tell me, aren't those the true heroes that we should be honoring?
We should honor fictional characters for their fictional deeds?

Quote:
Her deeds were far greater than Columbus's seeming discovery. She gave up her life so that France would be free.
Christopher Columbus sailed off with inaccurrate maps into uncharted seas when all others told him the world was flat, and he would fall off the edge of the world. His sailing led him to North America, which was inhabited by the Indians, who did not have to sail across uncharted seas when all others told them the world was flat, and they would fall off the edge of the world. They walked. And chill: Joan of Arc's a saint. I think we honor her a little bit.

Quote:
During the Crusades, when the fortress of Acre was being besieged by the Saracens, every single Templar in the city gave up their lives so that their loved ones could escape.
Some of us try to, but recent history books and historians like to tell us that the Saracens, the Muslims on their jihad, were peaceful, tolerant people who never tried to force people into their religion. Or do we forget why the fortress of Acre was attacked?

Quote:
Every last defender, wounded or hale, fought to the death, in a conflict reminiscent of the Fall of Gondolin.
I believe you have just helped answer your repetitive question: Tolkien did.

Sorry, but we don't live in a very honorable world.
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 08:09 PM   #4
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

Are you willing to overlook all the genocides perpetrated by Columbus and his followers in the name of religion and glory?

If Columbus had the courage to sail off into relatively uncharged waters, it was for greed. He just wanted to find a quicker route to the Indies, so that Spain would get rich quicker. That seeming courage stemmed from pure greed.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 08:38 PM   #5
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Sting

Quote:
Are you willing to overlook all the genocides perpetrated by Columbus and his followers in the name of religion and glory?
If everyone else can overlook the countless murders perpetrated by those 'Native Americans,' yes. If everyone can overlook the horrors the Christians have been through over the centuries -- millennia! -- and focus only on the Jews! The thing is, we look from one side -- we must look from all sides! What was everyone doing! When you compare, these 'genocides' you speak of seem a little less horrid and unreasonable.

Quote:
If Columbus had the courage to sail off into relatively uncharged waters, it was for greed. He just wanted to find a quicker route to the Indies, so that Spain would get rich quicker. That seeming courage stemmed from pure greed.
If he had the courage? You say it as if you doubt it as legitimacy. But you are certain that Columbus was a man entirely succumb by greed. I'm pretty sure there were much easier ways the man could have gotten rich, safe in Italy. If the man was able to entreat the king and queen of Spain to give him the means to sail... Wait...so that Spain would get rich quicker? The man was an Italian, he didn't care if Spain got rich. And even if he had, he wasn't seeking his own glory, but the glory of Spain. There is some honor in that. It sounds kind of like Boromir, if you want to continue to reference The Lord of the Rings.

-Durelin
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 08:44 PM   #6
The Barrow-Wight
Night In Wight Satin
 
The Barrow-Wight's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 4,058
The Barrow-Wight is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
White-Hand

This needs to get back all the way to Middle-earth immediately.
__________________
The Barrow-Wight
The Barrow-Wight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 08:56 PM   #7
Lyta_Underhill
Haunted Halfling
 
Lyta_Underhill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 844
Lyta_Underhill has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
This is politics, here, and they do not belong in association with a deceased author's texts.
Was not this intro part of the authorized paperback edition, released while Tolkien yet lived? As such, would Tolkien have a say over its content? I haven't looked through the Letters or in my editions to check this out, but it is perhaps a thought to be considered.

Cheers,
Lyta

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:56 PM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Lyta_Underhill ]
__________________
“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”
Lyta_Underhill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2004, 11:55 PM   #8
Child of the 7th Age
Spirit of the Lonely Star
 
Child of the 7th Age's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,135
Child of the 7th Age is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Sting

I do not want to get into the politics here, but I wanted to share who Peter Beagle was. He was a fairly noted fantasy writer -- author of A Fine and Private Place and The Last Unicorn (two very fine books), and was also one of two men who wrote the script for the Bashiki movie in 1978.

See the quote below on his other contributions a la Tolkien.

Quote:
Peter Beagle's relationship with J.R.R. Tolkein goes back to Beagle's adolescence. The Hobbit was published in 1937, and Beagle probably encountered it in his late teens. While his writing style may not have been as influenced by Tolkein as other writers of his generation, Beagle holds a firm place in the Tolkein mythos. He has written forewords to two of Tolkein's books, a lengthy article praising The Lord of the Rings entitled "Tolkein's Magic Ring" which was eventually included in The Tolkein Reader, he has contributed to a "tribute" anthology honoring J.R.R. entitled After the King, and helped write the screenplay for the animated version of "The Lord of the Rings."
As to whether or not Tolkien knew him or approved of the foreward, I have no idea. His article Tolkien's Magic Ring appeared in 1966, while Tolkien was still alive. I don't think the book foreward appeared till 1973, but I could be wrong, since this is coming off the top of my head.

For those of us who were Tolkien fans in the sixties and seventies, Peter Beagle is a familiar name and face.
__________________
Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.
Child of the 7th Age is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2004, 02:13 PM   #9
drigel
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
drigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
drigel has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

and who did the native americans displace when they migrated? or did they invade? JRRT wanted a mythology for anglo-saxons, whose land was conquered by normans. Who was displaced when the saxons migrated (or invaded or conquered).... see where the columbus argument leads? ignorance
drigel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2004, 05:03 PM   #10
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,206
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Pipe

Actually Tolkien's intent to write a mythology that he could dedicate to England was only the starting point. He said himself "my crest has long since fallen".

The intention was always to write a mythology for England. Not for the Anglo-Saxons, but for modern England, which thanks to the advent of Christianity and the Norman conquest has lost all of its Germanic legends. Tolkien wanted an alternative to the Celtic legends of the Britons, since those are rightly the heritage of Wales.

I would argue that invasion and displacement are never right, although they are an historical reality. We can lament the usurpation of someone's land whilst still admitting that our own cultures have grown out of such displacement. Certainly Tolkien was averse to imperialism per se. In letter #77, he wrote: "I should have hated the Roman Empire in its day (as I do), and remained a patriotic Roman citizen, while preferring a free Gaul and seeing good in Carthaginians."

He was no less disapproving of the British Empire. In Letter #53 he wrote: "I love England (not Great Britain and certainly not the British Commonwealth)".

It seems likely to me that the anti-imperial themes in Tolkien's works, particularly as they relate to Númenor, are therefore quite deliberate; which would make a foreword that criticises cultural expansionism reasonably appropriate. Unfortunately many of the great explorers have been motivated by profit and have done a great deal of damage, but we shouldn't forget that but for them the world would be a different and more divided place. Perhaps this is what Tolkien meant when he wrote: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." Perhaps this is an insight into Tolkien's view of God.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2004, 07:36 PM   #11
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Sting

A thousand apologies to you, BW! I am, unfortunately, a sucker to debates, especially historical and philisophical debates (if not on too high a level of thought); and, even more unfortunate is my very opinionated personality.

Lyta - I'm not sure about that, but I would not trust my judgement on it.

Thank you Child! I had heard he was a fantasy author, but did not know if he was even a contemporary of Tolkien.

Quote:
It seems likely to me that the anti-imperial themes in Tolkien's works, particularly as they relate to Númenor, are therefore quite deliberate
Ah, anti-imperial. Now it makes sense! Those words threw me for a loop, but now they make sense. As do many other things. I can see this as a recurring theme in both author's writings. Thank you Squatter! I have received what I asked for: a correction to my baseless opinion.

Quote:
Perhaps this is an insight into Tolkien's view of God.
To me it has always sounded very much like the God I've learned about all these years in Catholic school and Religious education! At least in one way he could be viewed that really takes all the greatest most wonderous aspects of Him and expresses them so beautifully and simply!

Woops. Away from the topic. At least I have stuck to Tolkien, though, this time. Does anyone know for sure when exactly the forward was published as a part of the novel? Now I'm really just curious. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2004, 10:11 PM   #12
Kalimac
Candle of the Marshes
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Flyover Country
Posts: 780
Kalimac has just left Hobbiton.
1420!

Squatter - just wanted to say, nicely put. The bit about "Thou, Melkor" reminds me of Aquinas's dictum that it is one of the greatest miracles that "out of evil cometh good." I don't like expansionism for expansionism's sake, and treasure-hunting isn't perhaps the noblest of callings, but they've had a lot of (doubtless unintended) good consequences. Beagle has every right to talk about how Tolkien was anti-expansionist and didn't like the idea of empires; what I think got to Durelin was the fact that Beagle was picking some rather inflammatory examples that you might be able to argue weren't necessarily ones that Tolkien would have approved of. The "murderers carrying crosses" makes it sound like every religious missionary that we honour is a rogue and that they should never have done what they did. First of all, not all of them were bad; many sincerely believed and sacrificed everything to that cause. Secondly, Tolkien himself was a very strict Catholic and would probably not have considered Christian proseletyzing (sp?) to be a bad thing, although he might have a few words to say about the manner in which it's done. But by lumping those examples, Beagle makes it sound as if these biases are present in Tolkien's own worldview.

And to add a few things just because I'm pedantic: Durelin, Columbus already knew the earth was round; it had been known for thousands of years - when Dante posited the position of purgatory, the idea he came up with presupposed a round earth. They just thought it was a lot smaller than it was.

Finwe, I think you might be going a little too far in the other direction. What people honour when they honour Columbus isn't so much the man himself as the discovery he made, and for good or ill his was the discovery that made an impact on the entire world. The Norse had gotten to Iceland and even parts of eastern Canada many centuries before, but they didn't capitalize on it, and eventually their settlements died out and left no permanent mark or open door to Europe. And as for Columbus himself - the man was just looking for a trade route, it wasn't like he had bad intentions. (I know, the road to hell and all that). And for wiping out the native population; despite what people may say, there was no large-scale planned genocide. Disease was the main killer, and there was no way anyone could have predicted it.

Supposing the shoe had been on the other foot, I doubt that the American natives would have been much gentler with the Europeans. There was a great deal of fear on both sides - why not? They'd never seen anything like this - and they acted as two flawed groups of people tend to act. Sorry about the long write; I just wanted to convey that it's not so much a black-and-white issue.

/Kalimac descends from soapbox.

LATER: Edited to get names right - I got confused and put Doug's name instead of Squatter's. Sorry, Squatter!

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:48 AM January 16, 2004: Message edited by: Kalimac ]
__________________
Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet
Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.
Kalimac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2004, 11:48 PM   #13
Maéglin
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 99
Maéglin has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Durelin - Your comments on the Saracen. Well the Crusades' objectives were for conquest you must understand, so it was all fair play imho. Why aren't we honoring the Saracens for their courage in defending their homeland? See, simple fact is, humans are flawed and every chapter of human history contains bloodshed.
Maéglin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2004, 01:59 AM   #14
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
What were the conquistadors? They were murderers who used the names of gold and god as excuses. Why do we honor them?
You seem to know something of what the Spanish did in South America, Finwe, so it is odd that you should say something like that. What exactly do you mean by talking about 'honouring' the Conquistadors? They were just as much despised then (when they did it) as they are by historians now.

The other thing about Columbus (early Spanish explorer/merchant) was equally innacurate and puzzling... anyway, rather a couple of mistakes there, my friend.
Gwaihir the Windlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2004, 11:42 AM   #15
Estelyn Telcontar
Princess of Skwerlz
 
Estelyn Telcontar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,645
Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Silmaril

Ahem! Back to Tolkien, please - let's keep the thread away from general political and historic discussion.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'
Estelyn Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-19-2004, 06:29 PM   #16
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Kalimac: You're absolutely right! It was just the comments such as that, including the one about the horrid 1950s (odd), that made me more than a bit...wary.

I come to resurrect this thread, as I have recently found something Tolkien himself wrote in his own introduction to The Fellowship of the Ring.

Quote:
As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical.
Before, I accepted that Tolkien was 'anti-imperialistic', as he seems to have been labeled. Then I came to understand more of the meaning of the compound word 'anti-imperialism', and so I became wary of it. I find it to be a tricky word, and an even trickier label.

Now, after finding the quote above, doubt grew almost to a certainty that Tolkien has been unfairly labeled, as are so many people, alive or deceased.

Unless, of course, 'anti-imperialistic' views can be found in other writings, of which I am certainly not all that aware of. Still, I will have trouble believing this until a clear definition of 'anti-imperialism' is given.

But, I have had many certainties shattered easily before. So, I ask if anyone else believes that 'anti-imperialist' is the correct label for Tolkien, that they should inform me of the basis of this, and give me a definition for 'anti-imperialism'.

(Sorry about all the quotations...couldn't help myself!)

-Durelin

Oh, and let's forget the conquistadors and Sarcens, shall we? Thanks a bunch... I started it, I know...truly sorry. Though I must say, some excellent points on Columbus and such, Kalimac. Please, forgive me for my mistake.

Last edited by Durelin; 02-19-2004 at 06:34 PM.
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2004, 08:16 PM   #17
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
Spectre of Decay
 
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bar-en-Danwedh
Posts: 2,206
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Send a message via AIM to The Squatter of Amon Rûdh
From dictionary.com: Imperialism: The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
The system, policies, or practices of such a government.

From the Oxford English Dictionary: "anti-: ...opposite, against, in exchange, instead, rivalling..."

For a man who openly stated in his letters that he disliked empires; and who portrayed the Númenoreans' gradual fall partly by having them begin to adopt an imperialist philosophy, 'anti-imperialist' seems like a fair description. Of course, it's by no means complete, but I think that it does sum up his views on empires.

The author of that introduction would not be the first to hijack the ideas of a novelist and use them to promote a personal agenda. Yes, his views are extreme, but they're not incompatible with Tolkien's. Personally I think that he gives imperialism too much space in that foreword, and that he could have been a little less confrontational; but clearly he wanted to make a point: that we honour people for actions without really thinking what those acts entailed. He is not wrong to do this, but in my opinion he ought to do so somewhere else. Tolkien was against imperialism and cultural domination, but not so much so that it is absolutely at the centre of his work. It should have been enough to note that Tolkien disapproved of the British Empire, draw in a point about the changing attitude of the Númenoreans to the Hither Lands and move on to another theme. Anything else says more about the writer of the foreword than it does about the author of the book.
__________________
Man kenuva métim' andúne?

Last edited by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh; 02-21-2004 at 08:20 PM.
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2004, 10:56 AM   #18
Durelin
Estelo dagnir, Melo ring
 
Durelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,121
Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Durelin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Quote:
Tolkien was against imperialism and cultural domination, but not so much so that it is absolutely at the centre of his work.
Most likely against them as much as any Christian would be against the ideas as part of imperialism, eh?

Thank you for that definition. Now that I know the definition that you stand on, I can understand why Tolkien could be called anti-imperial.

Though, when you say Tolkien was against empires, we could wonder what empires are, in definition, as well. Must empires call themselves empires to be empires, must they expand territorially, etc. But everyone has their own definitions, and I won't ask for another one from you, Squatter.

Thanks for that most precise explanation!

-Durelin
Durelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:19 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.