Mandos? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Glorfindel · 03-30-2001, 07:35 PM

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What do you think it was like for elves (after they were killed)living in Mandos? I mean I always look at Mandos the Valar as being pretty creepy. Not really the kind of guy I would want to be spending a couple of ages at his place if you know what I mean. And wouldn't you think since Finwe was slain in cold blood and had no right to die the valar would of let him back out like Finrod and Glorfindel? I mean I know hundreds maybe thousands of other elves have died but since Finwe's story is well known wouldn't you think the valar would do that kind of favor. I really wouldn't want to be a spirit in Mandos listening to my Hyperactive, anger induced son (feanor) just talk about all he could of done. But then again Finwe's first wife is also in there.

</p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-30-2001, 09:57 PM

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Re: Mandos?

HoME 10 contains the history of Finwe and Miriel and also addresses elvish customs including marriage. Elves marry for life. No divorce and no remarriage allowed generally. Miriel's abandonment of her body was deemed a perversion caused by Melkor's marring of Arda, as was Finwe's desire to remarry after Miriel's departure to Mandos. After careful consideration, the Valar decided that Finwe could remarry only if Miriel chose to never leave Mandos. She so chose. After Finwe was slain, he was reunited with Miriel and they decided Miriel would emerge from Mandos. If Finwe was then rebodied, he would have two wives, a violation of law. So Miriel's return from Mandos meant Finwe could not emerge. This was their choice.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

KayQy · 03-31-2001, 07:24 AM

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Re: Mandos?

Wait a minute. Elves can leave Mandos? I thought that was just some very very special exception for Beren and Luthien (which it would be anyway since Beren's a human). could someone explain the niceties to me?

Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-31-2001, 08:30 AM

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Re: Mandos?

Elves are meant to live substantially as long as Arda has life. Thus they are not intended to die and if, by mischance or otherwise, an elf perishes, his or her fea (spirit) is summoned to Mandos to reflect upon his or her life and any misdeeds commited until the fea is "healed" at which time they may exit Mandos and be "re-embodied".

Men such as Beren are not supposed to live as elves do. The Gift of Iluvatar is that they indeed perish and "leave the world". Beren somehow waited in Mandos until Luthien joined him and she persuaded Mandos to release both to live out the remainder of their lives as Men.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

The X Phial · 03-31-2001, 09:50 AM

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Re: Mandos?

This was always a little confusing to me...do humans go to Mandos first as a general rule and then on to the unknown fate of men?

-*-The X Phial-*- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p>

Glorfindel · 03-31-2001, 09:51 AM

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Re: Mandos?

Feanor sure had a ton of reflecting to do I must say. He sure killed alot of Teleri in cold blood. But I would think Fingolfin's valiant efforts to cross the Helarxe and challege Morgoth to combat would be cause for early release.

</p>

Inziladun · 03-31-2001, 12:18 PM

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Re: Mandos?

I think Men do go to Mandos for a time.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> For the spirit of Beren at (Lúthien's) bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos,unwilling to leave the world,
until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea,whence Men that die set out never to return.<hr></blockquote> Silm p.226-227 PB

And a little later it says Mandos could not withhold the dead spirits of Men after their time of waiting.

Wonder how long the wait is?

Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/31/01 1:19:27 pm

Orald · 04-01-2001, 02:32 PM

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Re: Mandos?

Feanor not being able to leave Mandos would have been another good reason for Finwe to stay.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Lady Eowyn · 04-02-2001, 12:42 AM

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Re: Mandos?

Well, good thing Feanor stayed there...I don't think it would have done any good to bring him back!!!

Hmm, now this made me wonder. How does Mandos choose wich elf can go back and which not?
Was it on how you lived your life and if you "were good" you were allowed to come back?

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

06-25-2006, 11:08 AM

Its a matter of whos ready/

zifnab · 06-26-2006, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by High Queen Galadriel

Its a matter of whos ready/

How does one become ready to leave the Halls of Waiting? And further more, be ready for what? The everyday task of simply living? Since they have left 'Man' in charge(?!), Valinor seems 'task' free.

Quote:

Glorfindel - What do you think it was like for elves (after they were killed)living in Mandos? I mean I always look at Mandos the Valar as being pretty creepy. Not really the kind of guy I would want to be spending a couple of ages at his place if you know what I mean.

I always tried to 'not' compare it with legends like Hades or Hades Empire or in Christian (and other) earlier beliefs, Kabbalah and Purgatory (not quite hell, but more like waiting rooms). Souls wandering aimlessly around? Searching for any opportunity to emerge, once more into a physical body. I see The Halls of Mandos as mere enlightenment. A sort or pit stop on your journey through the valleys of enternity.

Must be a nice thought. To actually know where you're going.

zifnab · 06-26-2006, 08:54 AM

I also find it ironic that Glorfindel is asking about the Halls of Mandos, when after that fierce Balrog battle, you had a 'short' vacation among it. So...how was it? Did you have to take your shoes of before entering.

To be honest that would be a good thread. What's da Halls like?! Clean the dust of your HomE volumes and add alittle imagination and a dash of emotion.

It's always a pleasure to post here on the 'downs.

03-30-2001, 07:35 PM	#1
Glorfindel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 42	Mandos? <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 40</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> What do you think it was like for elves (after they were killed)living in Mandos? I mean I always look at Mandos the Valar as being pretty creepy. Not really the kind of guy I would want to be spending a couple of ages at his place if you know what I mean. And wouldn't you think since Finwe was slain in cold blood and had no right to die the valar would of let him back out like Finrod and Glorfindel? I mean I know hundreds maybe thousands of other elves have died but since Finwe's story is well known wouldn't you think the valar would do that kind of favor. I really wouldn't want to be a spirit in Mandos listening to my Hyperactive, anger induced son (feanor) just talk about all he could of done. But then again Finwe's first wife is also in there. </p>

03-30-2001, 09:57 PM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 787</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? HoME 10 contains the history of Finwe and Miriel and also addresses elvish customs including marriage. Elves marry for life. No divorce and no remarriage allowed generally. Miriel's abandonment of her body was deemed a perversion caused by Melkor's marring of Arda, as was Finwe's desire to remarry after Miriel's departure to Mandos. After careful consideration, the Valar decided that Finwe could remarry only if Miriel chose to never leave Mandos. She so chose. After Finwe was slain, he was reunited with Miriel and they decided Miriel would emerge from Mandos. If Finwe was then rebodied, he would have two wives, a violation of law. So Miriel's return from Mandos meant Finwe could not emerge. This was their choice. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-31-2001, 07:24 AM	#3
KayQy Wight Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Currently Spain Posts: 250	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 189</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? Wait a minute. Elves can leave Mandos? I thought that was just some very very special exception for Beren and Luthien (which it would be anyway since Beren's a human). could someone explain the niceties to me? Truth will outlast both fact and fiction.</p> __________________ Do you really want to know / Or are you a little scared, Afraid that God is not exactly what you'd have Him be? --OC Supertones, "Wilderness" "Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter." -- Max Beerbohm

03-31-2001, 08:30 AM	#4
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,314	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 789</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? Elves are meant to live substantially as long as Arda has life. Thus they are not intended to die and if, by mischance or otherwise, an elf perishes, his or her fea (spirit) is summoned to Mandos to reflect upon his or her life and any misdeeds commited until the fea is "healed" at which time they may exit Mandos and be "re-embodied". Men such as Beren are not supposed to live as elves do. The Gift of Iluvatar is that they indeed perish and "leave the world". Beren somehow waited in Mandos until Luthien joined him and she persuaded Mandos to release both to live out the remainder of their lives as Men. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-31-2001, 09:50 AM	#5
The X Phial Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Out there with the truth. Come find me. Posts: 318	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 67</TD><TD><img src=http://community.universitypride.com/cecilyanne/X-Files-01.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? This was always a little confusing to me...do humans go to Mandos first as a general rule and then on to the unknown fate of men? --The X Phial-- You must believe in free will, you have no choice. Isaac Singer</p> __________________ But then there was a star danced, and under that was I born.

03-31-2001, 09:51 AM	#6
Glorfindel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 42	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 42</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? Feanor sure had a ton of reflecting to do I must say. He sure killed alot of Teleri in cold blood. But I would think Fingolfin's valiant efforts to cross the Helarxe and challege Morgoth to combat would be cause for early release. </p>

03-31-2001, 12:18 PM	#7
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,046	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 172</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? I think Men do go to Mandos for a time. <blockquote>*Quote:<hr> For the spirit of Beren at (Lúthien's) bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos,unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea,whence Men that die set out never to return.<hr></blockquote> Silm p.226-227 PB And a little later it says Mandos could not withhold the dead spirits of Men after their time of waiting. Wonder how long the wait is? Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000125>Inziladu n</A> at: 3/31/01 1:19:27 pm* __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

04-01-2001, 02:32 PM	#8
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 732</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? Feanor not being able to leave Mandos would have been another good reason for Finwe to stay. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

04-02-2001, 12:42 AM	#9
Lady Eowyn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 98	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 131</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Mandos? Well, good thing Feanor stayed there...I don't think it would have done any good to bring him back!!! Hmm, now this made me wonder. How does Mandos choose wich elf can go back and which not? Was it on how you lived your life and if you "were good" you were allowed to come back? And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom</p>

06-25-2006, 11:08 AM	#10
High Queen Galadriel Guest Posts: n/a	Its a matter of whos ready/

06-26-2006, 08:54 AM	#12
zifnab Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omni-presence Posts: 329	Yet another... I also find it ironic that Glorfindel is asking about the Halls of Mandos, when after that fierce Balrog battle, you had a 'short' vacation among it. So...how was it? Did you have to take your shoes of before entering. To be honest that would be a good thread. What's da Halls like?! Clean the dust of your HomE volumes and add alittle imagination and a dash of emotion. It's always a pleasure to post here on the 'downs. __________________ Facebook.