How did Galadriel knew that Gandalf was back?

[Iarhen]

After the fight with the Balrog, Gandalf passed away and returned in a short period of time.

Out of nowhere, Gwaihir picks him up from the Zirak-Zigil and takes him to Caras Galadhon... And Gwaihir tells Gandalf that Galadriel was the one who sent him to pick him up.

My question is... How did she knew that Gandalf was back? Need help from the Wise here cuz this question has been torturing me for the past week...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I've thought of that too, but the conclusion I've come to is: The Mirror of Galadriel.

[Legolas]

The Mirror is a possibility, as well as this:

At the end of the Lammas Pengolodh discusses briefly direct thought-transmission (sanwe-latya "thought-opening"), making several assertions about it, which are evidently dependent upon theories and observations of the Eldar elsewhere treated at length by Elvish loremasters. They are concerned primarily with the Eldar and the Valar (including the lesser Maiar of the same order).

A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties.

Osanwe - 'communication or interchange of thought'

Power of mind (or fëa) to detect another (and in the event of both giving consent, communication between the two entities). This was a power among the Eldar and Ainur (as noted in the first quote). Men are excluded because of the strength of the hröa (or body) over which they have little control.

[ November 24, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Knight of Gondor]

Let's not forget that Gandalf bore Narya, and Galadriel bore Nenya. But this could relate to the thought relations Legolas mentions.

Whether or not the rings had anything to do with it, when the Fellowship first meets with Galadriel, she asks where he was because she hadn't been able to discern his mind, or something like that.

[Iarhen]

Yeah, I do remember when Galadriel said taht he could not perceive his thoughts from a far... But I dont remember if that is from the movie or from the book...

I have another question. Did the elven rings give their bearers the capacity to communicate immediately with the other ring bearers?

[Legolas]

No, the Rings are not related to that - they would be (are) able to communicate "telepathically," as one might say in a modern day comic book, anyway. See the above post. It's actually presence of soul or mind that can be felt and used as a means to communicate thought without being physically present or even close.

It has nothing to do with the rings.

[Lord Elrond]

I would like to add that there was a limit to this communication as well as the ability to hide things from each other. For example the ability for Sauruman to hide his evil side from all the white council. I agree with you legolas that there was some ability however it was limited.

[Finwe]

I think Galadriel probably sensed the fight between Gandalf and the Balrog, and ultimately knew that Gandalf survived. None of the Wise could ignore a conflict such as that, since two Maiar haven't fought like that since the First Age (most likely). If not that, then Galadriel could probably "mind-speak" with Gandalf, becuase at the end of Return of the King, when everyone was leaving Minas Tirith, they constantly talk to each other mind-to-mind. If they could do it then, it makes sense that they would be able to do it about a month/a few weeks before.

[Morgoth the Great]

playing on the mirror, Eru bought Gandalf back, perhaps he could also have the power to influence the mirror into showing Galadriel that Gandalf was alive atop the mountain? just a thought, but i do feel that the "mind-speaking" is most likely.

[lore_master]

well it wasn't realy Eru who brought Gandalf back, it was either Manwe or another one of the Valar, because ha had not finished his mission that ha was sent to do, right?

but, I think it was "mind speech" from one of the Valar, Miar, or elves who were living in Valinor.

also, I think that if Saruman didn't want anyone to find out he was betraying them then they wouldn't. "mind speech" only works if the 2 people are agreeing to comunicate with each other.

[willkill4food]

It was Eru that sent Gandalf back, not any of the Valar...

I think this is either a mistake on the part of Tolkien, or a mistery left for the reader, because really no information is given to make any of our ideas more than guesses...

My guess is that the 3 Ring Bearers can sense each others presence, and maybe im wrong, but Elrond AND Galadriel both knew of Narya passing to Gandalf, so maybe thats how Galadriel knew Gandalf was awake....(just a guess)

-willkill

[Knight of Gondor]

No, the Rings are not related to that - ... It's actually presence of soul or mind that can be felt and used as a means to communicate thought without being physically present or even close.
It has nothing to do with the rings.

Hey, Legolas, just a question here...what gives you the ability to make this statement so authoritatively? Did Tolkien himself state whether or not the Rings had anything to do with it?

If, as you say, they are a means to communicate thought, then Galadriel could easily have sensed Gandalf...especially if he had returned as Gandalf the White! He would be shining a little brighter, so to speak, in his thoughts.

[Legolas]

There's not any authoritative statement required other than the fact that Galadriel, being of the Eldar, and Gandalf, an Ainu-incarnate can communicate through thought without any ring. Had they encountered each other (and they may have) in Valinor, they could've done the same thing.

They had the ability to do it without a Ring on, whether or not the Rings had anything to do with it, but the Rings didn't because never is there any mention of the Rings as a means of communication. Nowhere do they exhibit this power, nor is it hinted at. You're looking too far into the power and importance of the Rings.

An analogy for you...
Superman can fly. Everytime we see Superman flying, he has his cape on. Can he fly without his cape? Of course. Is it stated that he can fly without his cape, and that all beings of his kind can fly, caped or uncaped? Yes. Then why would someone wonder if the cape had anything to do with it? It's logically not related, and even if it gives normal humans the ability to fly, it's pointless to Superman because he can fly anyway.

If, as you say, they are a means to communicate thought, then Galadriel could easily have sensed Gandalf...especially if he had returned as Gandalf the White! He would be shining a little brighter, so to speak, in his thoughts.

This is part of the concept of osanwe. Elves and Ainur are capable of it without any aid from physical things. Osanwe can even be strengthened in three instances (in the event that it involves Incarnates - Ainur need no strengthening):

Strengthening can be by affinity, by urgency, or by authority.
Affinity may be due to kinship; for this may increase the likeness of hröa to hröa, and so of the concerns and modes of thought of the indwelling fëar, kinship is also normally accompanied by love and sympathy. Affinity may come simply from love and friendship, which is likeness or affinity of fëa to fëa.
Urgency is imparted by great need of the "sender" (as in joy, grief or fear); and if these things are in any degree shared by the "receiver" the thought is the clearer received. Authority may also lend force to the thought of one who has a duty towards another, or of any ruler who has a right to issue commands or to seek the truth for the good of others.

[ 11:05 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

I don't believe it was Eru who sent Gandalf back, for two reasons. One, Manwe or another Vala would be perfectly capable of doing so, and as they were the ones who sent Gandalf over in the first place, it seems most likely they’d be the ones to send him back. Two, that would involve Eru directly interferring, for lack of a better word, in Arda. It's pretty debated as to whether he would do this or not, but the general idea is that he wouldn't, at least for something like this. (see the Athrabeth for more details there)
Isn't it possible that Galadriel realized that Gandalf might be back, and sent an Eagle to keep an eye out for him? I believe Galadriel does say that she "cannot see [Gandalf] from afar… a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and his mind are hidden from [her]." So I'm pretty sure she can't just use the Mirror to find him, nor the Ring. An Eagle would be the best way to look for him.

[Theron Bugtussle]

Gotta think Legolas has something there, cause... I just finished FotR a few days ago. I think there was something in there about Galadriel asking where Gandalf was, and when the member(s) of the Fellowship said he fell into shadow and was no more (or some such), she said something like that explains why I (...I don't remember exactly...) can't sense him anywhere.

[Eöl]

in ROTK : Chapter 6 Many Partings:
concerning Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond and Gandalf.

Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world,or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

[Legolas]

Lovely quote/observation, Eol. It's also important to notice it includes Celeborn also.

Mae states

I don't believe it was Eru who sent Gandalf back, for two reasons. One, Manwe or another Vala would be perfectly capable of doing so, and as they were the ones who sent Gandalf over in the first place, it seems most likely they’d be the ones to send him back. Two, that would involve Eru directly interferring, for lack of a better word, in Arda. It's pretty debated as to whether he would do this or not, but the general idea is that he wouldn't, at least for something like this. (see the Athrabeth for more details there)

Eru did intervene directly in at least two instances - he sent a deceased Gandalf back into the world, and in the changing of Arda where it was made round and Aman was removed from the physical world.

Because of the nature of Gandalf's incarnation, he actually did die and left the world. His fea was bound to his hroa, and in the exhaustion and death of the latter, the former left. None of the Valar, even Manwe, could've brought Gandalf back. Obviously elves could be rembodied in the Halls of Mandos, but mortal men and Ainur who died left the world entirely. Tolkien explains Eru's intervention in Letter No. 156:

Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment.

I've boldfaced the most important parts of the quote. 'Authority' is indeed Eru.

They are all connected by the magic rings. Galdrial, weilder of Ninya, and Gandalf, weilder narya, could "sense" each other.

[Knight of Gondor]

Earendil, welcome! May I suggest you read the post before responding...

Eol, I was honestly thinking of that passage, but you beat me to it!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

...but mortal men and Ainur who died left the world entirely.

So that's what happens to dead Ainur...

Anyway...yes, they could communicate without the Rings. Else they could talk about Celeborn without his knowledge, and, as Legolas pointed out, he was part of the conversation.

One more thing: Arwen does it.

Arwen remained in Rivendell...from afar she watched over him in thought;

(LotR, Appendix A, II, v)

Galadriel's inability to perceive Gandalf could be due to the following reasons:

• He could already be dead(most likely).
  
• His will is actively engaged by his Maiarin foe. *Galadriel gets the answering machine from Gandalf's line*
  
• His connection was cut off, and he had no cash to pay up.

But that is not the question.

How did Galadriel knew that Gandalf was back?

Simple...connection reestablished.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:41 AM December 11, 2003: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

[Elassar 516]

In reading LOTR I recently noticed a few things that could be connected to this discusion. In "The Ring Goes South" just before the rest of the company is chosen Elrond says "Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsil," said Elrond "I can forsee very little of your road; and how your task is to be acheived I do not know. The shadow has crept now to the feet of the mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of the Greyflood; and under the shadow all is dark to me." Another place is in "The Mirror of Galadriel" after Frodo looks in the mirror when he and Galadriel are Talking she says "I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I percieve the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!" and then Frodo sees Nenya etc., and Galadriel goes on to say "He suspects, but he does not know - not yet. Do you not see now wherefor your coming is to us as the footsteps of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlorien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and be forgotten." I don't know if that really has any thing to do with "Mind-speach" but I thought it might

[Elassar 516]

Also, wouldn't Sauroman and Sauron be able to communicate without the Palantiri?

[Morgoth the Great]

Thats a very good point Elassar516, and i have to agree. Surely if it was Maia and Maia communication(i sound like im from B.T. or something, [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] ) then Sauron and Saruman would be able to communicate, and on top of that Sauron would be able to sense what Gandalf was doing, as he knew what he did usually caused Sauron problems(see the Mouth of Sauron's speech in front of the black gates). I think that it had nothing to do with Maiar spirits in that case(unless that's an innacuracy in Tolkien) but to do with the Rings of Power instead.

[ 11:51 AM December 05, 2003: Message edited by: Morgoth the Great ]

[Mungo of Bracegirdle]

Also, wouldn't Sauroman and Sauron be able to communicate without the Palantiri?

Good point, possible answer:

Saruman could hide his deep thoughts well. Examples, none of the Council preceived his real intentions (finding the ring), for a while he even fooled Sauron of his real intentions, Radagast is fooled by him, as is Gandalf. That is one of his most potent powers, to hide his feelings, plans, intentions. He truely is a wolf in sheep's clothing. So there seems to be some sort of control over how much of your mind someone can preceive. The palantir was only an instrument by which Saruman was ensnared. My thinking is that he used the palantir exclusively to "talk" to Sauron, but kept the rest of his mind hidden. Remember too that Sauron had put much of his power into the ring. So perhaps his ability to see the thoughts of others was lessend. Somewhere (I don't remember where exactly) it says that with the ring Sauron could "see" right into your very soul. Because he does not have the ring, we can assume (I think) that that power is limited as the entirity of it lies within the ring.
Hope that was clear.

Cheers,
Mungo

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Surely if it was Maia and Maia communication(i sound like im from B.T. or something) then Sauron and Saruman would be able to communicate, and on top of that Sauron would be able to sense what Gandalf was doing, as he knew what he did usually caused Sauron problems

But remember, the Wizards were in the form of Men, and their powers of mind were limited...so possibly they could only work close-range only.

[Eol Telemnar]

She has that mirror thing. SHe can see past, present and future. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Secret Fire]

Simple...connection reestablished.

That is not exactly true, Nilpaurion Felagund, Galadriel states herself

I cannot see Gandlaf from afar, unless he comes within the fences of Lothlorien: a grey mist is about him, and the ways of his feet and his mind are hidden from me

This seems to dispel the idea that Galadriel and Gandalf are detached for any reason other than the fact that Gandalf shrouds his own thougts and does not allow anybody access to his mind. Galadriel's statement is a statement of fact, nto something new to her recently.

Surely if it was Maia and Maia communication(i sound like im from B.T. or something, ) then Sauron and Saruman would be able to communicate, and on top of that Sauron would be able to sense what Gandalf was doing, as he knew what he did usually caused Sauron problems(see the Mouth of Sauron's speech in front of the black gates). I think that it had nothing to do with Maiar spirits in that case(unless that's an innacuracy in Tolkien) but to do with the Rings of Power instead.

Sarumon and Sauron did not share a mental connection, but were able to communicate through Palantir, not without. We can see this when Gandalf says

Further and further abroad he gazed, until he cast his gaze upon Barad-dur. Then he was caught!

Gandalf goes on to say how he wondered how long Sarumon was forced to go to the Palantir for inspection and to be given orders, daunted when persuasion would not work, and how the Palantir would be turned to Mordor if any but a will of adamant looked into it. Through thos, and to note that Sarumon did not want to serve Sauron, but to be his rival, loeads me to believe that they did not communicate through Osanwe because it took two willing minds to do this.
However, even when Sarumon believed he was going out on his own to rival Sauron, he was doing his will, to a point, destroying Sauron's enemies. The fact that Sarumon was not a willing slave led Sauron to force Pippin to shout "it;s not for you, I shall send for it!" because Sarumon would have seized thie ring for himself. This treason in Isengard led, however, to Sauron's doubt and striking faster thanhe desired (along with Aragorn's will of adamant wresting control of the Palantir) and allowing the eventual victory of all.
The point that Gandalf may have used Osanwe to call to Galadriel is also refuted, however, because of the dialogue between Gandalf and Gwaihir

"Bear me to Lothlorien"
"That indeed is the command of Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you," he answered

If Gandalf had known that Galadriel had sent for him. The only way, I believe, that Galadriel could have known that Gandalf was alive again is through the Mirror, but is this so strange to comprehend because when Frodo looks into the mirror, Frodo's first vision is

Far away a figure came slowly down the road, faint and small at first, but growing larger as it approached. Suddenly Frodo realized that it reminded him of Gandalf. He almost called out the wizard's name, and then saw that the figure was clothed in grey, not in white, in a white that shone faintly in the dusk; and in its hand there was a white staff.

I believe that the figure that Frodo saw was, indeed, Gandalf and thatit was a vision of the future, just as Sam's visions of both the Shire and Frodo. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Wow. Overwhelming.

And I'm defeated...

That's how Tolkien wanted it to be.