Did anyone else notice... - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-05-2002, 04:14 PM

Starbreeze,Perhaps I spoke in haste and without thoughtfullness-the two usually share the floor. Furthermore, I do not have the authority to shut the thread down, yet I would not shut it down had I the authority to do so. Nothing has been done which warrants a "shut down" by the holders of the Member-Numbers of old. I just thought the subject had been exhausted; but perhaps my entry had an heir of insistance and for that I apologize.[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ][ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

Rosa Underhill · 02-06-2002, 05:36 AM

Naturally, Mr. Tolkien would never have put something like homosexuality in TLotR. He was devote Catholic and an Englishman to boot. In that day and age, homosexuality were not such a big deal and hardly worth mentioning.I love Sam and Frodo's relationship as is: pure brotherly love. You just don't see that much in stories these days. And the fact that there was no sex at all in TLotR really made it much more appleaing to me. (I am a firm believer that sex does not sell and I prefer my fantasty sex-free. Sadly, I've only found two fantasy books/series that have none of it suggested at all: Lord of the Rings, and the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. If anyone knows of others, please, please, please tell me!)

02-06-2002, 12:32 PM

I know. Now.

Rosa Underhill · 02-07-2002, 05:16 PM

Aw, Starbreeze, this was a good topic! Don't feel bad! You asked the question right at the time I needed to vent and have my voice heard on the subject. If nothing else, you made at least this hobbit-lass feel better by letting her talk it out.

Daisy Sandybanks · 02-07-2002, 05:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think that homoerotic was the LAST thing on PJ's mind! I really don't think that those were intended... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and the last thing on J.R.R. Tolkiens mind aswell. Thouhg I did notice homoerotism in the books(not in the movie though) too, but I still think that that was the last thing on their minds and that It wasn't intentially done.

Rosa Underhill · 02-08-2002, 06:08 AM

I should dearly like to know where you found homoeroticism in the books because I haven't seen any at all. (Granted, I've only read the book once, but...)If you look at it logically, though, how/why would Tolkien have that in his books? He was a devote Christian, married and had three(?) kids. And the character most likely to be considered homosexual (Sam) clearly disproved that when he got married and had thirteen kids!

Starbreeze · 02-08-2002, 02:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rosa Underhill: Aw, Starbreeze, this was a good topic! Don't feel bad! You asked the question right at the time I needed to vent and have my voice heard on the subject. If nothing else, you made at least this hobbit-lass feel better by letting her talk it out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you I feel much better now.

Glenethor · 02-09-2002, 08:48 PM

Ya know, I am new here, so I will probably give opinions that have been offered ad nauseum to questions that have been beaten to death.That never stopped me before. Just thought I'd warn you... No. Nope. Don't see it. Know the book(s) well, never saw it there, never saw it in the movie. Context is important here. Tolkien was in the trenches of WWI. He had close friends die at the Somne. Anyone who goes through something like that will be seriously affected, when one second you are talking to a buddy, and the next second his brains are all over your tunic. Remember, the only combatants in those days were men. When your life is in the hands of others, close ties occur. It really is as simple as that. The Fellowship is thrown together in the face of a monstrous Evil that seeks their annihilation. It is no wonder that they become close.Now, the first thing I read about the homosexual or homeoerotic subtext in LoTR was an interview with Sir Ian McKellen, who is openly gay. He was asked about Gandalf's sexuality, and Sir Ian basically said that Gandalf was probably asexual. My first response from reading this interview was 'whaaa???' Why ask these questions in the first place? Incidentally, I had never heard of Sir Ian before LoTR, didn't know his sexual preferences. My visceral response was one of discomfort, because I was concerned whether or not Sir Ian's orientation would distort my perception of his playing Gandalf. It didn't. The contemporary context is one in which homosexuals are actively and publicly forcing themselves into the mainstream. Now, before you think I am a homophobe, I just have a problem with children being exposed to some of the more outrageous antics in the Gay Pride parades. I could care less. One manifestation of their fight to become mainstream is the making of dubious claims on various pieces of art, film, or literature. My opinion is they just want to be a 'part of,' which is ok...but I guess they can't help reading things into texts and images that are there only in their imaginations. It is projection. Now, someone is going to say, 'I saw this, and I am not gay,' to which I say you have been sensitized to consider it in such a fashion. That's fine. I don't see it, because it just isn't there.Hope I don't offend too many people here. Just expressing my opinion.

Starbreeze · 02-10-2002, 12:50 PM

hi, Glenethor! Welcome to the board!

River Jordan · 02-10-2002, 03:34 PM

Hi Starbreeze! Just wanted to say howdy - I like your name! It's a very "elven" name - very "ElfQuesty". How did you come up with it?

Daisy Sandybanks · 02-10-2002, 07:18 PM

Rosa Underhill:Yes, I only have read the books once too, and, well, now that I think about it, it wasn't homoerotism that I saw, it was just plain, good old fashioned friendship. I actually enjoyed the parts were Sam was so close to Frodo, holding his hand, caressing him and all, those parts really touched me, it really showed how loyal and devoted Sam was to Frodo.

Rosa Underhill · 02-10-2002, 09:07 PM

Yay! Daisy has seen the light! *does the happy hobbit dance, everyone runs*My favorite parts of the book all involve Sam showing how much he cares about Frodo. When they fell asleep at the stairs to Cirith Ungol, when Sam rescued Frodo from the Tower, when he carried Frodo on his back and when he was trying to keep poor Frodo warm in the midst of the wastes of Mordor... All those parts just moved me. (Maybe it's a chick thing.)

Starbreeze · 02-11-2002, 01:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by River Jordan: Hi Starbreeze! Just wanted to say howdy - I like your name! It's a very "elven" name - very "ElfQuesty". How did you come up with it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I really don't know the answer to that actually. Well, I write fantasy part time and I'm always coming up with new "words" and "names" to use in my stories, for example, I (think) made up the place names in my latest - "Tironë, Bamaur, Chelak, Bul'levan and Haladie" (awful aren't thay?) from combining the ends and middles of random words, maybe "Starbreeze" was born that way, but as far as I can remember I was walking down the corridor one day and lightning struck me and whispered "Starbreeze". Or prehaps I wasn't listening to my friend properly and thought she said "Starbreeze" when she really said sneeze...?But anyway, I'm glad you like it, its always nice to have feedback on this type of thing. I wasn't going to use it in my books, but maybe I will after all...What do you mean by "ElfQuesty"?Hope I haven't bored everyone with my gabble, I find it interesting, but few others do. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone how can stay awake for more than two minutes of my babble...oh, here I go again.<Calls into the distance> If anyone out there IS still awake, I apologise for the boredom (lol)

Starbreeze · 02-11-2002, 02:08 PM

*calls to the dark, empty world* Anyone out there?

Joy · 02-11-2002, 02:36 PM

In response to RiverJordan -The 4 words for LOVE in the Greek are:Pheilo - Brotherly Love Eros - sexual Love Agape - unconditional (God-kind) Love Storge - (pronounced stor-gay) Family Love - between parents and children.

Daegwenn · 02-11-2002, 03:04 PM

People take from what they read what they wish to see. If you think that that is what you saw, then so be it-but in doing so, be discrete. If you have read the books, then maybe you would understand the reason why many people here are a bit 'ruffled' by your statement. honestly, I watched the movie before I read the books, because I could never sit tight through the whole thing. Trust me, if you crack open the book, you will realize the nature behind the relationships between men. Although, some people, after reading the books, like to write on relationships that the characters held, the have no more basis than their own meandering ideas. Sincerely, Daegwenn

River Jordan · 02-11-2002, 06:22 PM

To Joy: Thanks! That fourth one was on the tip of my tongue...'ppreciate that!

River Jordan · 02-11-2002, 06:26 PM

To Starbreeze:ElfQuest is the name of a fantasy comic book series that has been running for about 20 years - I mentioned it once I think in a message thread I started about "What other kind of fantasy books do you read?" Anyway, I was a big ElfQuest fan in high school, and that's where my name "River" came from (originally "River Runner", I've dropped the Runner part... If you're interested in checking it out, you can visit their website at: <A HREF="http://www.elfquest.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.elfquest.com/</A> Great stuff!

Starbreeze · 02-12-2002, 12:45 PM

Ahhh, thanks, that makes sense now.

Araen · 02-13-2002, 11:02 AM

R? TT R? nooooooooo Mom won't let me see R movies. Back to the main theme they aren't at all not in any shape or form. I mean after all The Fellowship has to have gotten rather close because they all depend on one another.

Elenglin · 03-03-2002, 05:24 AM

Yess, I'm not the only one!! I've seen the movie three times, and each time I exept Frodo to say in the last scene: "Sam.. I love you." but he always says "Sam.. I'm glad that you're here with me."There are also some _really_ erotic lines and sentences in the finnish version of the book.

Rosa Underhill · 03-04-2002, 01:34 AM

That may be, but in it's original language, the eroticism has to be thought into place by the reader. Otherwise, it simply isn't there. (I.e. Sam and Frodo, as I've said often, are not "gay".) Hope that didn't sound too snobbish; I didn't mean it that way if it did.

02-05-2002, 04:14 PM	#41
rhudladion Guest Posts: n/a	Starbreeze,<P>Perhaps I spoke in haste and without thoughtfullness-the two usually share the floor. Furthermore, I do not have the authority to shut the thread down, yet I would not shut it down had I the authority to do so. Nothing has been done which warrants a "shut down" by the holders of the Member-Numbers of old. I just thought the subject had been exhausted; but perhaps my entry had an heir of insistance and for that I apologize.<P>[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]<p>[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Rhudladion ]

02-06-2002, 05:36 AM	#42
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Naturally, Mr. Tolkien would never have put something like homosexuality in TLotR. He was devote Catholic and an Englishman to boot. In that day and age, homosexuality were not such a big deal and hardly worth mentioning.<P>I love Sam and Frodo's relationship as is: pure brotherly love. You just don't see that much in stories these days. And the fact that there was no sex at all in TLotR really made it much more appleaing to me. (I am a firm believer that sex does not sell and I prefer my fantasty sex-free. Sadly, I've only found two fantasy books/series that have none of it suggested at all: Lord of the Rings, and the Chronicles of Prydain by Lloyd Alexander. If anyone knows of others, please, please, please tell me!) __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-07-2002, 05:16 PM	#44
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Aw, Starbreeze, this was a good topic! Don't feel bad! You asked the question right at the time I needed to vent and have my voice heard on the subject. If nothing else, you made at least this hobbit-lass feel better by letting her talk it out. __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-07-2002, 05:32 PM	#45
Daisy Sandybanks Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 101	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think that homoerotic was the LAST thing on PJ's mind! I really don't think that those were intended... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, and the last thing on J.R.R. Tolkiens mind aswell. Thouhg I did notice homoerotism in the books(not in the movie though) too, but I still think that that was the last thing on their minds and that It wasn't intentially done. __________________ Knowlege is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

02-08-2002, 06:08 AM	#46
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	I should dearly like to know where you found homoeroticism in the books because I haven't seen any at all. (Granted, I've only read the book once, but...)<P>If you look at it logically, though, how/why would Tolkien have that in his books? He was a devote Christian, married and had three(?) kids. And the character most likely to be considered homosexual (Sam) clearly disproved that when he got married and had thirteen kids! __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-06-2002, 12:32 PM	#43
starbreeze Guest Posts: n/a	I know. Now.

02-08-2002, 02:03 PM	#47
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Rosa Underhill:<BR><STRONG>Aw, Starbreeze, this was a good topic! Don't feel bad! You asked the question right at the time I needed to vent and have my voice heard on the subject. If nothing else, you made at least this hobbit-lass feel better by letting her talk it out.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you I feel much better now.<BR> __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

02-09-2002, 08:48 PM	#48
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	Ya know, I am new here, so I will probably give opinions that have been offered <I>ad nauseum</I> to questions that have been beaten to death.<P>That never stopped me before. Just thought I'd warn you...<BR> <P>No. Nope. Don't see it. Know the book(s) well, never saw it there, never saw it in the movie. Context is important here. Tolkien was in the trenches of WWI. He had close friends die at the Somne. Anyone who goes through something like that will be seriously affected, when one second you are talking to a buddy, and the next second his brains are all over your tunic. Remember, the only combatants in those days were <I>men</I>. When your life is in the hands of others, close ties occur. It really is as simple as that. The Fellowship is thrown together in the face of a monstrous Evil that seeks their annihilation. It is no wonder that they become close.<P>Now, the first thing I read about the homosexual or homeoerotic subtext in LoTR was an interview with Sir Ian McKellen, who is openly gay. He was asked about Gandalf's sexuality, and Sir Ian basically said that Gandalf was probably asexual. My first response from reading this interview was 'whaaa???' Why ask these questions in the first place? Incidentally, I had never heard of Sir Ian before LoTR, didn't know his sexual preferences. My visceral response was one of discomfort, because I was concerned whether or not Sir Ian's orientation would distort my perception of his playing Gandalf. It didn't. The contemporary context is one in which homosexuals are actively and publicly forcing themselves into the mainstream. Now, before you think I am a homophobe, I just have a problem with children being exposed to some of the more outrageous antics in the Gay Pride parades. I could care less. One manifestation of their fight to become mainstream is the making of dubious claims on various pieces of art, film, or literature. My opinion is they just want to be a 'part of,' which is ok...but I guess they can't help reading things into texts and images that are there only in their imaginations. It is <I>projection</I>. Now, someone is going to say, 'I saw this, and I am not gay,' to which I say you have been sensitized to consider it in such a fashion. That's fine. I don't see it, because it just isn't there.<P>Hope I don't offend too many people here. Just expressing my opinion. __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

02-10-2002, 12:50 PM	#49
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	hi, Glenethor! Welcome to the board! __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

02-10-2002, 03:34 PM	#50
River Jordan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 27	Hi Starbreeze! Just wanted to say howdy - I like your name! It's a very "elven" name - very "ElfQuesty". How did you come up with it? __________________ Your friendly neighbourhood elf, Lostlaithion River Jordan "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Frodo Baggins http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF

02-10-2002, 07:18 PM	#51
Daisy Sandybanks Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 101	Rosa Underhill:<P>Yes, I only have read the books once too, and, well, now that I think about it, it wasn't homoerotism that I saw, it was just plain, good old fashioned friendship. I actually enjoyed the parts were Sam was so close to Frodo, holding his hand, caressing him and all, those parts really touched me, it really showed how loyal and devoted Sam was to Frodo. __________________ Knowlege is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

02-10-2002, 09:07 PM	#52
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Yay! Daisy has seen the light! does the happy hobbit dance, everyone runs<P>My favorite parts of the book all involve Sam showing how much he cares about Frodo. When they fell asleep at the stairs to Cirith Ungol, when Sam rescued Frodo from the Tower, when he carried Frodo on his back and when he was trying to keep poor Frodo warm in the midst of the wastes of Mordor... All those parts just moved me. (Maybe it's a chick thing.) __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-11-2002, 01:45 PM	#53
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by River Jordan:<BR><STRONG>Hi Starbreeze! Just wanted to say howdy - I like your name! It's a very "elven" name - very "ElfQuesty". How did you come up with it?</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I really don't know the answer to that actually. Well, I write fantasy part time and I'm always coming up with new "words" and "names" to use in my stories, for example, I (think) made up the place names in my latest - "Tironë, Bamaur, Chelak, Bul'levan and Haladie" (awful aren't thay?) from combining the ends and middles of random words, maybe "Starbreeze" was born that way, but as far as I can remember I was walking down the corridor one day and lightning struck me and whispered "Starbreeze". Or prehaps I wasn't listening to my friend properly and thought she said "Starbreeze" when she really said sneeze...?<P>But anyway, I'm glad you like it, its always nice to have feedback on this type of thing. I wasn't going to use it in my books, but maybe I will after all...<P>What do you mean by "ElfQuesty"?<P>Hope I haven't bored everyone with my gabble, I find it interesting, but few others do. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone how can stay awake for more than two minutes of my babble...oh, here I go again.<P><Calls into the distance> If anyone out there IS still awake, I apologise for the boredom (lol) __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

02-11-2002, 02:08 PM	#54
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	calls to the dark, empty world Anyone out there? __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

02-11-2002, 02:36 PM	#55
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	In response to RiverJordan -<P>The 4 words for LOVE in the Greek are:<P>Pheilo - Brotherly Love<BR>Eros - sexual Love<BR>Agape - unconditional (God-kind) Love<BR>Storge - (pronounced stor-gay) Family Love - between parents and children. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

02-11-2002, 03:04 PM	#56
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	People take from what they read what they wish to see. If you think that that is what you saw, then so be it-but in doing so, be discrete. If you have read the books, then maybe you would understand the reason why many people here are a bit 'ruffled' by your statement. <P>honestly, I watched the movie before I read the books, because I could never sit tight through the whole thing. Trust me, if you crack open the book, you will realize the nature behind the relationships between men. Although, some people, after reading the books, like to write on relationships that the characters held, the have no more basis than their own meandering ideas. <P>Sincerely,<BR>Daegwenn<P> __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes

02-11-2002, 06:22 PM	#57
River Jordan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 27	To Joy:<BR>Thanks! That fourth one was on the tip of my tongue...'ppreciate that! __________________ Your friendly neighbourhood elf, Lostlaithion River Jordan "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Frodo Baggins http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF

02-11-2002, 06:26 PM	#58
River Jordan Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Surrey, BC, Canada Posts: 27	To Starbreeze:<P>ElfQuest is the name of a fantasy comic book series that has been running for about 20 years - I mentioned it once I think in a message thread I started about "What other kind of fantasy books do you read?" Anyway, I was a big ElfQuest fan in high school, and that's where my name "River" came from (originally "River Runner", I've dropped the Runner part... If you're interested in checking it out, you can visit their website at: <A HREF="http://www.elfquest.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.elfquest.com/</A> Great stuff! __________________ Your friendly neighbourhood elf, Lostlaithion River Jordan "Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes." Frodo Baggins http://www.angelfire.com/bc/YMF

02-12-2002, 12:45 PM	#59
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Ahhh, thanks, that makes sense now. __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

02-13-2002, 11:02 AM	#60
Araen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 70	R? TT R? nooooooooo Mom won't let me see R movies. Back to the main theme they aren't at all not in any shape or form. I mean after all The Fellowship has to have gotten rather close because they all depend on one another. __________________ "Where is the horse and the rider, where is the horn that was blowing, they have passed like rain on the mountains, like wind in the meadow, the days are damned in the west? behind the hills? there are shadows... "

03-03-2002, 05:24 AM	#61
Elenglin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 24	Yess, I'm not the only one!! <P>I've seen the movie three times, and each time I exept Frodo to say in the last scene:<BR>"Sam.. I love you."<BR>but he always says<BR>"Sam.. I'm glad that you're here with me."<P>There are also some _really_ erotic lines and sentences in the finnish version of the book. __________________ "Sinun pelloillasi on jättiläinen, suunnattoman suuri jättiläinen, ja hän on tulossa tähän suuntaan", koira sanoi. "Apua! Apua! Hän talloo jalkoihinsa sinun lampaasi. Hän on astunut Galathea-raukan päälle, ja se on lituskainen kuin kynnysmatto. Apua! Apua! Hän ruhjoo kaikki sinun pensasaitasi ja hän survoo kaiken viljasi. Sinun täytyy toimia rohkeasti ja nopeasti, isäntä, tai kohta sinulla ei ole mitään jäljellä! Apua!" Garm puhkesi ulvomaan.

03-04-2002, 01:34 AM	#62
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	That may be, but in it's original language, the eroticism has to be thought into place by the reader. Otherwise, it simply isn't there. (I.e. Sam and Frodo, as I've said often, are not "gay".) Hope that didn't sound too snobbish; I didn't mean it that way if it did. __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)