Potential Use of the Dead Men of Dunharrow. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

JeffF. · 06-23-2009, 11:47 AM

In a military sense, I've always wondered why Aragorn did not do more with the Dead Men than just eliminate the two forces of Corsairs that landed at Linhir and Pelargir & capture their fleets. Legolas at the Last Debate hints at a possible reason, he states that Angbor the Fearless and his men did not come forward until the fear of the Dead was removed (by the departure of the Dead). Perhaps Aragorn could not gather the forces of the Gondor fiefs until the Dead were released but this begs the question of whether or not the attack of the Dead at the Battle of Pelennor Fields would have been more effective than that of the forces of the South, in my opinion the Dead would have been (as happened in the movie version).

In the Passing of the Grey Company Aragorn's demand of the Dead is unclear, he states that he is going to Pelargir and that they will fight for him until "all this land" is clear of Sauron's Servants. He could have meant all the land between Dunharrow and Pelargir or he could have meant the present kingdom of Gondor or he could have meant the kingdom of Gondor as it existed in Isildur's time. I think he also could have demanded they fight until Sauron was overthrown as was the intent when Isildur initially called them out. Certainly the use of the Dead would have saved many lives at Pelennor and at the Black Gate.

I also wonder if the Nazgul with the main army were also a factor in releasing the Dead after Pelargir. It seems to me that the Nazgul would have had some power to counter or even eliminate the Dead Men. Both were 'wraiths' and both used fear as their main weapon. No doubt the Nazgul were each individually far more powerful than any individual Dead Men but the Dead far outnumbered the Nazgul. I presume the Nazgul would have used some sorcery against the Dead instead of engaging wraith to wraith, perhaps there was a danger of the Lord of the Nazgul turning these wraiths against Aragorn's men (in a similar way that he controlled the Barrow-wights). Had Aragorn been successful at the Black Gate and attacked Barad-dur certainly the Dead would be the only weapon that would give Aragorn even the possibility or a successful assault on that dread fortress but on the other hand no doubt Sauron himself would have the sorcery power to eliminate them but it seems to me that this would absolutely turn his attention from attempt to spot Frodo and Sam.

Inziladun · 06-23-2009, 01:45 PM

I don't think the Nazgûl could have had any effect on the actions of the Dead, nor controlled them in any way, and I do have to wonder how effective the fear of the Dead would have been against Sauron's troops who had the Black Captain and other Nazgûl to worry about. The armies of Sauron only fled when bereft of his will, and I don't see them breaking as the Corsairs did, ghosts of Men or no.
Even if the Dead could have been effective at the Pelannor or other fields of battle, I don't think that would have been a 'lawful' use of them by Aragorn, even though they'd originally sworn to fight Sauron to the death.
A token act of loyalty was, I think, all that was legally required of them, and Aragron rightfully released them once they'd made a move to atone.

Boromir88 · 06-25-2009, 08:10 PM

The Nazgul and the Dead Men were quite different in nature. I'm not sure how similar you could say they really were, other than the fear they struck in their enemy.

All the Nazgul had a physical form, that was bound to Sauron, and for his use. How do they sport nifty black cloaks without a body? It was invisible, but there was definitely a body there. Pierce it, just as Merry and Eowyn did to the Wiki, and it would die. Due to their bond to Sauron and the One Ring, they could only be killed under unique circumstance, but a physical presense nonetheless. Their bodies had just faded because of the 9 Rings, as Gandalf said would have happened to Gollum had he continued to keep the Ring...his body would have faded, but he would still have a physical form.

The Dead had no physical form (or if they did there has not been evidence for it). Gimli tells his companions he doubts their swords would have any "bite" in them, and he was most likely correct. Their bodies are gone, only their spirits remain, and their spirits were barely visible simply because of the power of the oath. If you look at Isildur's curse, he tells the Oathbreakers that their spirit would never rest until their oath was fullfilled. So, even many many years after they have died, their spirits are bound to remain because of their broken oath. A spirit without a phsical form, can not directly cause phsyical harm...case in point Sauron, who after his defeat would be a wandering spirit never able to reform again.

Now could Aragorn have continued to use them as a weapon of fear? Maybe...and how successful they would have been is anyone's guess. The Wiki has controlled dead spirits before, so I doubt he or any of the Nazgul would be freaked out by 'em. And eventhough the Wiki has shown control over dead spirits, the Dead Men were under Aragorn's power, because of an oath. Oaths in Middle-earth are very powerful things, and I can't imagine the Wiki having the power to override an oath.

Gordis · 06-26-2009, 02:16 AM

Good points, everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And eventhough the Wiki has shown control over dead spirits, the Dead Men were under Aragorn's power, because of an oath. Oaths in Middle-earth are very powerful things, and I can't imagine the Wiki having the power to override an oath.

The naked spirits of the Dead of Dunharrow were held in ME by their unfulfilled oath, yes, but still I think they followed Aragorn willingly- they followed him because they wanted out, they wanted to get the Gift and to leave. It was their free choice, not that they were compelled to follow him by some magical contract.
They still had their free will, were not some zombies, and as such they could be theoretically led astray by some other influence or by fear. As living Man they had once refused to fight out of fear of Sauron, so it could have happened again. As bodiless spirits they were very vulnerable to necromantic powers of Sauron and the WK. They chose to obey Aragorn, but they might have been compelled by Necromancy to obey Sauron. That's why I agree with JeffF that Aragorn dared not lead them anywhere near Mordor.

Another reason not to bring the Dead to Pelennor would be that (unlike the Nazgul) the Dead were unable to control the fear they emitted. They had been frightening the population on both sides of the Mountins for ages, their fear lay heavily on the Grey company they followed and on the Gondorian allies. Aragornwould have been unable to muster a human force in Southern Gondor if the Dead were still there. He had to choose: the army of Dead or the army of Southern Gondor

To bring the Dead to Pelennor would likely make the Mortal Men on both sides run away screaming. The cavalry (including that of Rohan) would be most vulnerable, unable to control the horses. So, that would be a battle between the Dead on one side and the Nazgul and Orcs instilled with battle-madness by the Nazgul on the other side. And a single well-chosen spell by the WK could send the Dead flying in fear.

And finally think of Aragorn's PR issue.

Here comes a total stranger claiming to be the King Returned with an army of the Dead at his heels. Sure his ability to command the Dead would have been a solid proof of his descent from Isildur - but that is for the learned in Lore, not for common people. For ordinary Gondoreans it would only be scary: they would see it as dark sorcery, most likely, and such practices are of the Enemy. Instead of coming as leader of Men, he comes as a necromancer, scattering the allies and foes alike and frightening the population of Minas Tirith out of their wits. Ahem - how is he better than the Witch-King then?

Tuor in Gondolin · 06-26-2009, 07:41 AM

Of course, a practical plot reason for JRRT not using the Dead further,
sadly uncomprehended by PJ and friends, was that it makes
pointless other resistance to orcs and men on the Pelennor Fields.were

But theoretically you could argue that the AotD would have been
only ma minor component of Isildur's overall force- and so not a
decisive force in either war, and that they were no longer effectively
part of Middle-earth polity once they had made a direct contribution
toward aiding Isildur's Heir.

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-26-2009, 10:00 AM

I somehow doubt that the "great valour" of the Men of Lebennin etc would have even considerd getting on the ships had the ghosties been aboard. Remember, in the attack the only crewmembers who didn't dive overboard were those rowers chained to their benches. Apparently the principal weapon of the Dead is fear, untreasoning terror- but this works both ways. Considering the behavior of the Grey Companie's horses, how would the mounts of the Rohirrim have reacted to the Dead? Not to mention the potential panic of all the Men of the West.

Classic PJ cluelessness, echoing his mishandling of the Nazgul- he cast them as *physical* warriors, rather than psychological morale-destroyers.

And one wonders to what extent Orcs would have been affected (of course, it appears that by the time Aragorn arrived the Orcs were a non-factor, thanks to the Sun.)

06-23-2009, 11:47 AM	#1
JeffF. Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 70	Potential Use of the Dead Men of Dunharrow. In a military sense, I've always wondered why Aragorn did not do more with the Dead Men than just eliminate the two forces of Corsairs that landed at Linhir and Pelargir & capture their fleets. Legolas at the Last Debate hints at a possible reason, he states that Angbor the Fearless and his men did not come forward until the fear of the Dead was removed (by the departure of the Dead). Perhaps Aragorn could not gather the forces of the Gondor fiefs until the Dead were released but this begs the question of whether or not the attack of the Dead at the Battle of Pelennor Fields would have been more effective than that of the forces of the South, in my opinion the Dead would have been (as happened in the movie version). In the Passing of the Grey Company Aragorn's demand of the Dead is unclear, he states that he is going to Pelargir and that they will fight for him until "all this land" is clear of Sauron's Servants. He could have meant all the land between Dunharrow and Pelargir or he could have meant the present kingdom of Gondor or he could have meant the kingdom of Gondor as it existed in Isildur's time. I think he also could have demanded they fight until Sauron was overthrown as was the intent when Isildur initially called them out. Certainly the use of the Dead would have saved many lives at Pelennor and at the Black Gate. I also wonder if the Nazgul with the main army were also a factor in releasing the Dead after Pelargir. It seems to me that the Nazgul would have had some power to counter or even eliminate the Dead Men. Both were 'wraiths' and both used fear as their main weapon. No doubt the Nazgul were each individually far more powerful than any individual Dead Men but the Dead far outnumbered the Nazgul. I presume the Nazgul would have used some sorcery against the Dead instead of engaging wraith to wraith, perhaps there was a danger of the Lord of the Nazgul turning these wraiths against Aragorn's men (in a similar way that he controlled the Barrow-wights). Had Aragorn been successful at the Black Gate and attacked Barad-dur certainly the Dead would be the only weapon that would give Aragorn even the possibility or a successful assault on that dread fortress but on the other hand no doubt Sauron himself would have the sorcery power to eliminate them but it seems to me that this would absolutely turn his attention from attempt to spot Frodo and Sam. __________________ JeffF(Fingolfin)

06-23-2009, 01:45 PM	#2
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,036	I don't think the Nazgûl could have had any effect on the actions of the Dead, nor controlled them in any way, and I do have to wonder how effective the fear of the Dead would have been against Sauron's troops who had the Black Captain and other Nazgûl to worry about. The armies of Sauron only fled when bereft of his will, and I don't see them breaking as the Corsairs did, ghosts of Men or no. Even if the Dead could have been effective at the Pelannor or other fields of battle, I don't think that would have been a 'lawful' use of them by Aragorn, even though they'd originally sworn to fight Sauron to the death. A token act of loyalty was, I think, all that was legally required of them, and Aragron rightfully released them once they'd made a move to atone. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-25-2009, 08:10 PM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,507	The Nazgul and the Dead Men were quite different in nature. I'm not sure how similar you could say they really were, other than the fear they struck in their enemy. All the Nazgul had a physical form, that was bound to Sauron, and for his use. How do they sport nifty black cloaks without a body? It was invisible, but there was definitely a body there. Pierce it, just as Merry and Eowyn did to the Wiki, and it would die. Due to their bond to Sauron and the One Ring, they could only be killed under unique circumstance, but a physical presense nonetheless. Their bodies had just faded because of the 9 Rings, as Gandalf said would have happened to Gollum had he continued to keep the Ring...his body would have faded, but he would still have a physical form. The Dead had no physical form (or if they did there has not been evidence for it). Gimli tells his companions he doubts their swords would have any "bite" in them, and he was most likely correct. Their bodies are gone, only their spirits remain, and their spirits were barely visible simply because of the power of the oath. If you look at Isildur's curse, he tells the Oathbreakers that their spirit would never rest until their oath was fullfilled. So, even many many years after they have died, their spirits are bound to remain because of their broken oath. A spirit without a phsical form, can not directly cause phsyical harm...case in point Sauron, who after his defeat would be a wandering spirit never able to reform again. Now could Aragorn have continued to use them as a weapon of fear? Maybe...and how successful they would have been is anyone's guess. The Wiki has controlled dead spirits before, so I doubt he or any of the Nazgul would be freaked out by 'em. And eventhough the Wiki has shown control over dead spirits, the Dead Men were under Aragorn's power, because of an oath. Oaths in Middle-earth are very powerful things, and I can't imagine the Wiki having the power to override an oath. __________________ Fenris Penguin

06-26-2009, 07:41 AM	#5
Tuor in Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 3,651	Of course, a practical plot reason for JRRT not using the Dead further, sadly uncomprehended by PJ and friends, was that it makes pointless other resistance to orcs and men on the Pelennor Fields.were But theoretically you could argue that the AotD would have been only ma minor component of Isildur's overall force- and so not a decisive force in either war, and that they were no longer effectively part of Middle-earth polity once they had made a direct contribution toward aiding Isildur's Heir. __________________ The poster formerly known as Tuor of Gondolin. Walking To Rivendell and beyond 12,555 miles passed Nt./Day 5: Pass the beacon on Nardol, the 'Fire Hill.'

06-26-2009, 10:00 AM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,301	I somehow doubt that the "great valour" of the Men of Lebennin etc would have even considerd getting on the ships had the ghosties been aboard. Remember, in the attack the only crewmembers who didn't dive overboard were those rowers chained to their benches. Apparently the principal weapon of the Dead is fear, untreasoning terror- but this works both ways. Considering the behavior of the Grey Companie's horses, how would the mounts of the Rohirrim have reacted to the Dead? Not to mention the potential panic of all the Men of the West. Classic PJ cluelessness, echoing his mishandling of the Nazgul- he cast them as physical warriors, rather than psychological morale-destroyers. And one wonders to what extent Orcs would have been affected (of course, it appears that by the time Aragorn arrived the Orcs were a non-factor, thanks to the Sun.) __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.