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Old 09-03-2013, 12:02 PM   #1
Haramu
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Why did Aule want to destroy Dwarves

I can sort of understand why Eru rebuked Aule for creating Fathers of Dwarves since Eru sought for the Elves to be the firstborns, but it was the dwarves whom were the first awaken and then put back to sleep under the stones of earth until the Elves awoke. Why did Aule raise his hammer and attempt to destroy his creations/dwarves? Why exactly did Eru condemn Aule's actions for shaping the dwarves and trying to give them life etc . Why did Eru pity Aule and breathe life into Aule's creations?
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Old 09-03-2013, 12:19 PM   #2
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As soon as he was confronted by Eru, Aulë realized (or allowed himself to be released from self-delusion) that he had committed a serious error.
The Valar had not been authorized by Eru to attempt new "creations" of their own, but merely to oversee what the Creator had established. Aulë considered that his only recourse was to express his true humility and sense of guilt by wiping out the physical traces of his act. As Aulë had made them, destroying them would not have actually been "killing", since Aulë as a creation himself had not been able to imbue them with a sense of being. It was only Eru, seeing the humility and heartfelt sorrow of Aulë, who was able to give the Dwarves true life. He did so out of pity for Aulë and an understanding of Aulë's motives, which had not been evil.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:05 AM   #3
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Also at the point when he was going to smite them with his hammer, he was not aware that Eru had actually given them being. It was when they flinched that it was seen that they had independant wills, whereas before they were basically just puppets..
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Old 09-04-2013, 11:09 AM   #4
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I liken it to the biblical story of Abraham offering his son Isaac as sacrifice to Yahweh. Abraham raised his knife, but Yahweh took mercy on Abraham and rewarded his faith by not allowing Isaac's sacrifice.

It is not a one-on-one comparison, but Eru forbade the sacrifice faithful Aule was willing to make and rewarded him by breathing life into the Dwarves.
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:04 PM   #5
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I liken it to the biblical story of Abraham offering his son Isaac as sacrifice to Yahweh. Abraham raised his knife, but Yahweh took mercy on Abraham and rewarded his faith by not allowing Isaac's sacrifice.

It is not a one-on-one comparison, but Eru forbade the sacrifice faithful Aule was willing to make and rewarded him by breathing life into the Dwarves.
True, the two are not precisely the same, because Isaac's sacrifice was a deliberate test of Abraham's faith, whereas there's no evidence of that being the case with Aulë.

Still, it's an interesting parallel.
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Old 09-04-2013, 05:20 PM   #6
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I suppose it is also a contrast to Feanor's refusal to sacrifice his own creation.
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:36 PM   #7
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I suppose it is also a contrast to Feanor's refusal to sacrifice his own creation.
I hadn't thought of that before, but that's intriguing also. A little humility and knowledge of one's ultimate place goes a long way.

There's the obvious contrast too with Morgoth, who wanted to have his own subjects to rule, not students to teach, as Aulë.
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Old 09-05-2013, 04:38 AM   #8
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I liken it to the biblical story of Abraham offering his son Isaac as sacrifice to Yahweh. Abraham raised his knife, but Yahweh took mercy on Abraham and rewarded his faith by not allowing Isaac's sacrifice.

It is not a one-on-one comparison, but Eru forbade the sacrifice faithful Aule was willing to make and rewarded him by breathing life into the Dwarves.
Morthoron, you seem like a Hobbit to me - "You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch" Well, maybe the first part is an exaggeration, but still, great point. I was thinking of the same parallel myself, it crossed my mind in comparison to the fact that the story shows the same pattern at the "culminating point" - the one who is offering his future/creation listens to the divine command, not only once (and then it would end up with him destroying his "progeny" in blind obedience to previous order), but continuously (when the other one speaks for the second time in order to make him stop from what he's about to do). As to what Zil said, of course, the difference is that in the case of Abraham it's meant to be a test, but then again, for all practical purposes Aulë's case is the same. (Of course, for Aulë it also doesn't have such an existential meaning - he's not throwing away his only future. Though, what do we know about how much the Dwarves meant for him?)

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I hadn't thought of that before, but that's intriguing also. A little humility and knowledge of one's ultimate place goes a long way.

There's the obvious contrast too with Morgoth, who wanted to have his own subjects to rule, not students to teach, as Aulë.
I think the main, obvious contrast is, like Inzil said, with Melkor, who also became impatient (already before Ainulindalë, with the emptiness of the Void). This, by the way, also shows, in my opinion, how close Aulë was to Melkor in certain ways of thinking, and shows why Aulë's former Maiar (Sauron, Saruman) were the ones most prone to fall: the lack of the humility, which is shown here by Aulë, basically breaks all the differences between Aulë and Melkor (or their servants). In other words: the story also means to show the difference between Aulë and Melkor; it is fine to be impatient with the Creator's slow-moving plan and it is not a terrible and unforgivable transgression, it's the arrogance and stubborn rebellion (with no logical cause, since this story proves that eventually, Eru even let Aulë's designs enrichen Arda in the way Aulë would have wanted to) that is the core problem of the whole... well, the whole Eä.
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:22 AM   #9
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In his desire to enter the world Melkor wanted "to be a master over other wills." [Sil, p. 8] Aulë is really the contrast to Melkor; "Melkor was jealous of him, for Aulë was most like himself in thought and in powers" [p.20] although "In the powers and knowledge of all the other Valar he had a part" [p. 25] He went from wanting to make things others had not thought of, to making "nothing save in mockery of the thought of others" [p. 20]. Aulë longed for the coming of the COI so that he could be their teacher which was his impetous for creating the Dwarves. Melkor on the other hand wished "to be a master over other wills." When Illuvatar questions him about his motives and how the Dwarves would be automatons under Aulë he says, "I did not desire such lordship" [p. 40] which shows to me that his thought to lesser creatures was in no way like that of Melkor's as you will see clearly if you continue reading the passage. He even says he did not mean to make the Dwarves in mockery of the vision of the COI, like Melkor had done in making things in mockery of the other Valar. I would say Eru rebuked Aulë because he had not given him that power to create life, "Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority?" [p. 40] Aulë thought to destroy the Dwarves because he felt it was an offensive action, "and in my impatience I have fallen into folly" [p. 41] You ask why Eru spared the Dwarves, the text says, "because of his ( Aulë's ) humility". [p.41] He then made them a part of his plan unaltered as Aulë had them made.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:23 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inziladun View Post
As Aulë had made them, destroying them would not have actually been "killing", since Aulë as a creation himself had not been able to imbue them with a sense of being. It was only Eru, seeing the humility and heartfelt sorrow of Aulë, who was able to give the Dwarves true life. He did so out of pity for Aulë and an understanding of Aulë's motives, which had not been evil.
Given the idea that the 'creation' of living, locomotive (!) beings was supposed to be reserved for Eru (or at least was supposed to have His permission), I can see how Aulë's action could be seen as 'erroneous', but, in my opinion, not 'evil', because to me that term indicates malevolent intent, and Aulë had none of this. So yes, I agree with you.

I don't have my copy of The Silmarillion with me right now, but if I remember correctly, Eru stopped Aulë from eradicating the Dwarves (why am I sorely tempted to say 'Dwarrows' all of a sudden?) because he noted that they were living beings with feelings and emotions. So I do not believe that Aulë couldn't have 'killed' them, even if he made them. Perhaps, because they were not made by Eru, they did not have the same 'sense of being' (as you put it) as Elves or Men, but they had a sense of identity nonetheless.

Someone correct me if I missed a quote, thankyouverymuch.
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Old 12-21-2013, 08:06 PM   #11
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When Aulë went in for the kill they flinched and Eru had given them a place in Arda, but they would not be the First-born.
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Old 12-25-2013, 08:42 AM   #12
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Morthoron, I too thought of the story of Abraham and Isaac.

I see a personally redemptive story with Tolkien himself. I do believe that I have read how Tolkien saw Aule as a bit of himself. Could Tolkien have had doubts about the legitimacy of his need to subcreate? If so, I see this story as a possible working out of those doubts. And then we have the famous poem in which Tolkien tells C.S. Lewis how we are dethroned but still make in the image in which we're made.

I'm not sure this bears out in Tolkien's life story, but it could have, might have.
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