Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

[draggonklaw]

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I'm wondering if there are any references to Eru or any of the Ainur in LotR (ie. the whole third age). Did any of the different &quot;races&quot; in middle earth during the third age (specifically during the time of Bilbo and Frodo) know about Eru and the Ainur and the origin of Middle earth? Or was it all forgotten? I'm sure that Cirdan, Glorfindel, Elrond, Galadriel, Bobmbadil and some others knew. Any thoughts?

</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

All of the elves, and Bombadil knew. The Numenoreans knew. I'm sure all lot of the people in Gondor, or at least the wise knew. Most of the peoples knew of the Valar, if not Eru, but they thought of the Valar as gods since they had never seen Eru or his actions.

Visit me at <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/blorien16140>Lorien</a> friend of <a href=http://pub16.ezboard.com/bamongwareth>Amon Gwareth</a> and <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/brivendel>Rivendel</a> find my corpse at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi>The Barrowdowns</a> </p>

[Gilthalion]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

Elbereth is mentioned by name and the rest are fleetingly alluded to at times.

In the song of praise to Elbereth, the elves give a poetic description of how the stars were made. I think Tolkien's story is not about the mythology, but rather is about the folk who live in it.

They are experiencing the miraculous and their ardent belief in the divine is represented in the few ceremonies and the hymns to the &quot;West.&quot; Faramir and the Rangers of Ithilien had a simple heartfelt ceremony. Frodo and Sam felt like hicks from the sticks, but they understood what was going on.

Gandalf was sent back after his battle with the Balrog. Sent back by whom?

The folk living in the tale know. Most of their lives are lived privately away from our view. We glimpse a few outward expressions of it. But they are walking with the equivilant of an angel when they walk with Gandalf. (Aragorn speaks of this.) Their religion/mythology is all around them!

Legends are popping up out of the grass! Prophecies are fulfilled! The songs are coming true!

We, the readers, don't get to hear all the songs of praise and prophecy of the different peoples.

<center> ~~~</center>

I had a rather long take on the Christian persective that this lead me to think of. This really isn't the forum for a long rambling discourse on that! So check out Tar Ost-in-Eruhir in my signature for that sort of thing.



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[Sharkû]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

I'm too lazy to give exact quotes or references now, but in Letters JRRT writes that Middle-Earth of the 3rd age is a saecularicised (if that is an English word at all) world due to the course of its history, the dwindling of elves, the lessened influence of the Valar, and the refusal of the descendants of the Númenoréans to worship any higher creature (as an aftermath of the misery Sauron brought). Eru is generally not worshipped at all, and has no hallows in use.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000003>Sharku</A> at: 3/26/01 6:06:38 am

[Voronwe]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

The only reference I can recall being made to Eru during the whole of the Thrid Age is found in Unfinished Tales, in the oath that Cirion swears to Eorl on Elendil's tomb. He says, in Quenya:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Vanda sina termaruva Elenna-nóreo alcar enyalien ar Elendil Vorondo voronwë. Nai tiruvantes i hárar mahalmassen mi Númen ar i Eru i or ilyë mahalmar eä tennoio.<hr></blockquote>

Which means:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> This oath shall stand in memory of the glory of the Land of the Star, and of the faith of Elendil the Faithful, in the keeping of those who sit upon the thrones of the West and of the One who is above all thrones for ever.<hr></blockquote>

As far as I can remember, the only person who uses the word 'Valar' in Lord of the Rings is Gandalf.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">"For Aldarion had become enamoured of the Great Sea, and of a ship riding there alone without sight of land, borne by the winds with foam at its throat to coasts and havens unguessed; and that love and desire never left him until his life's end."</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

Without answering the initial post directly, the evolution of the treatment of the Valar and Eru is from the historical to the legendary or mythical. In the First Age, some of the Elves lived among the Valar and most if not all knew of the West. The Valar and Eru are part of history. As time passes, Man begins to obtain supremacy. Man does not personally know the Valar (with the exception of a very few such as Tuor) and all Man knows of the West is the tales and rumor of the Elves. Even this &quot;evolutionary&quot; change is not abrupt. The Numenoreans &quot;know&quot; more of the Valar and Eru than do later Men. By the Third Age, the Elves are fading and The Valar and Eru are relegated to legendary status. The Istari are taken at face value as wise old &quot;Men&quot; of indefinite lifespan and their nature is not questioned. The tales that make up LoTR are the last intrusion of the old &quot;history&quot; (the West, Eru and even Elves as actual living beings). Then even this last link to the past fades away.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Inziladun]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

Men in Gondor at least seem to think of the Valar in times of crisis.
During the battle in Ithilien between Faramir's men and the Haradrim,when the Oliphaunt appears:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;'Ware! Ware!',cried Damrod to his companion.'May the Valar turn him aside! Mûmak! Mûmak!'&quot;<hr></blockquote>


Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. </p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: Eru and the Ainur in LotR?

The unseen narrator makes a reference to the Valar:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new tire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. (Book V, Ch. V , last para)<hr></blockquote>

There are also stray references in the Annals of Kings and, I believe, one in the note on calenders in ME. AFAIK, those are the only references to the Valar in the LoTR.

</p>

[lindil]

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Coronation of Aragorn

In some ways the culminating or transition point from the 3rd to the 4th age is [more than the rings passing west -which were largely if not entirely relics at that point] was the Coronation of Aragorn by Gandalf the Maia. The Valar [their thrones more exactly] are envoked as a blessing upon Aragorn King of Men, descendant of Elven-Kings and Melian the Maia, by Olorin the direct representative of the Valar , newly returned frrom the Blessed realm.
It was a moment of re-establishing the link of Men w/ Eru via the Valar, and we are led to believe that the primary job of those left in the 4th age who know of these and other high things is to pass them on and see that they do not perish. we see this especially in the epilog [HoME 9]




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: Coronation of Aragorn

Þus cwæþ lindil:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> In some ways the culminating or transition point from the 3rd to the 4th age is [more than the rings passing west -which were largely if not entirely relics at that point] was the Coronation of Aragorn by Gandalf the Maia. The Valar [their thrones more exactly] are envoked as a blessing upon Aragorn King of Men, descendant of Elven-Kings and Melian the Maia, by Olorin the direct representative of the Valar , newly returned frrom the Blessed realm<hr></blockquote>

A very interesting point of view, comrade. I, however, view the transition between the third age as representing, rather, the disappearance of all active cause of evil (Melkor at the end of the 1st age and Sauron at the end of the 3rd age) from Arda. The evil caused by Morgoth's corruption of Arda, however, remains, and the history of Arda from the 4th age onwards represents the struggle of fallen man against that corruption; to culminate in the eventual healing of Arda.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Coronation of Aragorn

Also true, and I think this is the main reason reason the party went to Moria Gandalf had to desttroy the Balrog.[along w/ springing Gollum]

He would have made a fine rallying point for the orcs,trolls and such of the 4th age.

'Needless was none of the deeds of Gandalf'

lindil

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

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Re: Coronation of Aragorn

Correct me please if I need to.

At my toughts, Gandalf WAS an Ainur. You all know that he is a Maia sent by the Valar to help Middle-Earth, but all the Maia were Ainur. However they were not as powerful as the Valar

</p>

[Glorfindel]

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Re: Coronation of Aragorn

Maia were the vassels of the Valar. I look at it like the middle ages in europe under the fuedal system. The King and Royal blood line are the most powerful. Then there are other rich people around but are not of royal blood line. And they are the vassels of the royalty. So in a way it is same with the ainur of Ea. The royalty is the valar and their powerful vassels are the maia. Or if you dont want to think to much about it. The maia are the servents of the valar. It think that was said in the Valenquenta or something.


</p>

[Lotrelf]

Eru is the ONE. He, I guess, is omnipresent. Eru intervened in the end, as Tolkien said, and saved the world. Ulmo, in form of Water, was present everywhere in ME, if I'm not wrong. Frodo hears the Music in his dreams/visions, and Arda is made by Music of Ainur.
My thoughts