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Old 02-20-2003, 05:37 PM   #1
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Silmaril Eowyn, Aragorn and Arwen - an analysis

I find the relationship between Éowyn and Aragorn easily the most fascinating and intriguing of all relationships, whether of love or friendship, in the novel. <P>Tolkien's universe is remarkably non-sexual, something the films have almost completely preserved. The exceptions are a couple of rather French kisses between Arwen and Aragorn. At a time where some form of sexiness is required in any major movie I find this approach quite nice. The love stories in Tolkien, among others the story of Arwen and Aragorn, is platonic and spiritual. As far as I know, they do not even kiss in the book. And, contrary to regular romantic films, the romantic process and tension leading to a declaration of love is hardly interesting. <P>This is reminiscent of the narration in old legends and ballads, which, as we know, served Tolkien as sources of inspiration. In, for example, the Arthurian legends the initial meeting between a man and a woman is often described like this: Thus Sir X beheld for the first time the lady Y, and he loved not another woman for as long as he lived. This is not the story of two individuals being attracted to one another; in good, old, pre-revolutionary tradition Fate picks out two eligible candidates and makes sure they meet. From the very first moment it is an established truth that these two people belong together. The same tendency is evident in various fairy-tales, where the efficient hero makes himself worthy of a princess, whom he eventually attains and in other words receives his just reward. What the two persons think of each other is irrelevant. The chivalrous literature is thus more emotional and focused on real love, although this sentiment practically always awakens at first sight, before any of the persons involved know anything about the other. <P>It is obvious that Aragorn must marry Arwen. The protagonist, the hero, must have a precious reward; not only a princess, but something, for Man, as rare as an Elfish princess for a wife. His love with Arwen is old and was awoken immediately at their first meeting. Significantly enough the story of their first encounter is only re-told; the reader is given no insight into the tension and development of feelings between them. We are merely informed that these two love each other and always will, and that they have done so for a long time. Everything is determined, established, verbally defined, and further emphasised by the Lúthien/Beren parallel. Arwen and Aragorn are meant for one another. This pattern fits nicely into the motives of Tolkien?s inspirational texts and objects of study: the chivalrous myths and the fairy tales. <P>It should also be remarked that most relationships in the novel are very much defined. We know, for example, from their initial meeting in Rivendell, that Legolas and Gimli are suspicious to each other. And when this scepticism gradually changes into mutual respect, we, the readers, are perfectly aware of it. Their conversations leave no doubt thereof. Also, we rarely doubt the nature of the relationships between the other main characters. <P>Enter Éowyn, and the balance is disturbed. Observe that while the Arwen-Aragorn relationship is literary and explicit (no one ever doubts the nature of their feelings for each other) the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn is full of doubt and tension. In the book as well as the film the focus is on the exchange of glances and touches, while we never know what any of them really think or feel. I think they have handled this very good in the film, for example by letting the first contact between Éowyn and Aragorn be of a physical nature. Observe how Aragorn seizes Éowyn and holds her back as she rushes towards her uncle. <P>But this relationship is forbidden, much more so than Aragorn's love for Arwen, because it challenges the story itself, the very premises of the fairy tale. Arwen is, according to the novel's set of values, the ultimate woman, she represents an unattainable ideal and is destined to be the one true love and partner of the hero. Of course Aragorn loves her ? he must; anything else is impossible and unthinkable in a regular fairy tale as The Lord of the Rings. She is everything that is worth loving, and he has, in addition to this, if my memory does not fail me, promised her to be faithful. <P>Therefore Aragorn <I>cannot</I> become involved with Éowyn. The relationship, however unrealised, passes largely in silence. But there are no doubt that <I>something</I> is going on between them. I believe the notion that the feelings are on her part only is a misunderstanding. In the novel their first meeting is described as he regards her, and reflects upon the impression she has made on him. This is also elegantly displayed in the film, as Aragorn speaks rather little to Éowyn, but often looks at her, and ? in the movie ? pays close attention when she is indirectly introduced as Theoden mutters her name. <P>Also, Éowyn represents a challenge for Aragorn. She is troubled and thoughtful, often bitter, and not at all easy to understand. In this manner she is also different from the meek, gentle and understanding Arwen. Peter Jackson makes this wonderfully clear in the little swordfight between Éowyn and Aragorn; I wish he had made it just a little bit longer. This is the encounter of two warriors, two equals, that are trying to measure each other and figure each other out. To me, this scene is loaded with a sexual tension that is practically non-existent in the Arwen-Aragorn scenes. But this quality, Éowyn's ?difficultness?, is also what makes her unfit for Aragorn's love. She is to rough and independent to become the ?trophy wife? Arwen undoubtedly is. She is not a fairy tale heroine, but she is intriguing, fascinating, and thoroughly human. I think this is the reason she has gained so much sympathy from Tolkien readers when it becomes evident that her love is unrequited. <P>In other words, the physical is one of Éowyn's most important and striking features. Contrary to the very passive Arwen, she is most active. Although Arwen in the first film, happily, is given more guts and independence, her situation is protected and quiet both in the novel and in the second film. She does not DO anything, she IS. Eowyn, on the other hand, rebels against her passive role, the same role that seems to fit Arwen perfectly. She finally becomes a heroine of the battlefield of Pelennor. <P>Another interesting aspect that adds up to this impression is that she is the only female in the novel, and in the other works of Tolkien I have read, that is explicitly and physically desired; not, or at least not that much, by Aragorn, but by the convincingly repulsive Grima Wormtongue. <P>Through its forbidden, physical nature the relationship between Eowyn and Aragorn becomes, the way I look upon it, the only sexy relationship in the entire Lord of the Rings. I will almost proceed as far as to say that sex is introduced to the story through the meeting of Eowyn and Aragorn, and that his final rejection of her and union with Arwen represents the repression of sex and the victory of the pure, platonic, deep and real love.
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Old 02-20-2003, 06:33 PM   #2
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You bring up an interesting topic, and I find I agree totally. Arwen and Eowyn really are Ying and Yang. I think you just single handedly brought my thoughts to paper.
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Old 02-20-2003, 06:40 PM   #3
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Wlecome to the Downs, that is one heck of a first post! I think you have found the right place. Kudos.<P>However, I do not agree with your assumptions regarding Aragorn, and that is a major premise in your analysis. It is quite clear to me that Aragorn never made any move or spoke any words, that could be construed as being either of the romantic type or the the forbiddenl/physical type, towards Eowyn. Rather I see it as Eowyn misinterpreting her own feelings, and possibly misinterpreting Aragorn's. Most definitely Aragorn understands his own, and even has some understanding of the nature of Eowyn's.<P>On a more base level, quite apart from any kind of romance, she is young, 23 years young. She has been surrounded by duties and restrictions her entire life, not to mention caring for a weakened old man, King or not makes no difference. This girl is trapped in more ways than one and weakens in the knees at the royal and bravery of Aragorn. This is a new encounter for her, something never before seen and in a time of great turmoil, and it's a chance she does not want to let escape. In my opinion.<P>Let's explore her duty now. Did she follow Aragorn through the Paths of the Dead? No. Why? It's obvious that she can break orders in a pinch, and it is clear that she has feelings (rather undeveloped but still present) for him. She did not need to stay with her people, there were others that could have handled the duties of caring for the people if needed. Eowyn wanted Aragorn to stay with her, not to leave. I think this is an important distinction. Even if this state of weak-kneed urgency, she was in a sense realizing her place was not by Aragorn's side.<P>Enter Theoden King. He too orders her to stay behind, yet here she decides to risk breaking orders (her King's orders no less) and go towards the duty she feels called upon to honor. More profound in this instance are those needs, the love of Theoden, the sense of purpose. Quite clearly this is the correct path, but she is young; Eowyn is not battle hardened and world weary, and cannot see the forest for the trees. Disregarding her youth and it's influence for a moment, people do not just shake off the remnants of a life of restriction and repressed emotions in the blink of an eye, or in Eowyn's case even with the death of a Witch-King, which she seemingly cared little of at the time. <P>And if I mix in even a little more personal opinion - Eowyn holding on to her undeveloped, misinterpreted feelings regarding Aragorn, as demonstrated by her initial talks with Faramir, shows her as a person who holds pain close to her. Almost like she derives comfort from it. Thank Eru that Faramir finally was able to wrest some of that away and replace it with warmth. And what is the first thing she does? Proclaims her destiny as a healer!! Amazing. It's really a great subplot of rebirth - not love - in which Aragorn is but a piece.<P>You noted about the swordfight and Aragorn and Eowyn seeming as equals. This is the ONLY time that is visible and only in the movies. Aragorn and Eowyn are nowhere near equals save perhaps in the bravery department (but even that is iffy) and should not be portrayed as such. Now that you mention it they did the same thing with Arwen in the movie, sneaking up behind him with a sword. That was a bad portrayal as well, for the same reason, he is a warrior of the finest caliber, she is not. <P>I could write all day apparently, haha, but I'll stop now or no one will read the whole thing! <P>Cheers, I hope you find this take interesting,<BR>Tar <P>Ps- this kind of thread can be placed in the Books section.<p>[ February 20, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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Old 02-21-2003, 07:42 AM   #4
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itz called the love triangle
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Old 02-21-2003, 11:39 AM   #5
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> itz called the love triangle <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not even close. Thanks for the insightful commentary though... <P>Why don't you try thinking a little before you post, it shows respect for the topic starter and other posters/readers.
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Old 02-22-2003, 05:50 PM   #6
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I agree completely with you, Tar-Palantir. <P>Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn seem to me more like a kind of hero-worship and she sees in him the hero who might rescue her of her constricted situation. And Aragorn, in the book, has never for a second flirted with her. The moment he notices her beginning infatuation, he is deeply troubled. He feels sorry for her and yet has a remarkable understanding for her.(Mark his words about her in the houses of healing.) <P>But since this thread is in the Film- section, we're supposed to talk about the movie-characters, I guess. And those are just not quite the same persons, alas! <BR>Eowyn is shown rather more warmhearted and sympathetic in the movie. <BR>Aragorn in the movie never shows his "kingly" side. Already in FotR he is less sure of himself, he doesn't really want to become king, and is even willing to renounce Arwen, although he loves her. <BR>In TTT it is shown how Elrond talks him into letting Arwen go."It was only a dream" he tells her. So while he is riding with the Rohirrim and talking to Eowyn, he thinks that Arwen is actually leaving Middle Earth and his memories of her are only nostalgic. This leaves him in quite a different position to Eowyn than in the book! He doesn't actually encourage Eowyn, but he considers her, at least.<BR>I don't quite know what I should think, I feel kind of schizophrenic, viewing those two different sets of characters which are supposed to be the same. <BR>I only wonder how PJ will eventually manage to bring Arwen back? He has now changed so much that more changes (and omissions) must follow. <P>
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Old 02-22-2003, 05:51 PM   #7
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i was watching the audio comentary (i love tig hahaha)and it seems to me that liv tyler is really dumb "get him safely to safty"
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Old 02-22-2003, 06:48 PM   #8
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You're right <B>Guinevere</B>, it's amazing how easy it is to alter that relationship for the film. A couple looks here, some sad eyes there, and there you have it! I guess we'll wait and see. I did love it when Eowyn asked about the pendant and he drifts off into space for a few minutes, it was kinda funny. "She's sailing to the undying lands with all that is left of her kin." Eowyn did have anything to say and just walks off. I found that humorous. <p>[ February 22, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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Old 02-22-2003, 09:39 PM   #9
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Eowyn did have anything to say and just walks off. I found that humorous. <P>Well, you're right, Tar-Palantir, but it's one of those awkward situations, like asking someone how his wife is doing and being told that she died of cancer six months ago. There's nothing tactful you could possibly say. ("So, does this mean you're dating again?")<P>It doesn't seem to me that Aragorn flirts with or considers Eowyn in the movie; he's comradely with her, but no more so than with Gimli or Legolas, and he gets rather short when the conversation starts touching on his personal life. He's not being rude, but I didn't really see any signs of consideration or encouragement there, more like "Uh-oh...how do I let her down gently..." which is fairly close to the book.
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Old 02-22-2003, 11:10 PM   #10
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I imagined her comeback to be "So, you like to sail do you?" maybe it just works in my own head!?<P><B>Kalimac</B> - I think the novel is much clearer about the whole thing. Every non-reader I know that has seen the film (ok, it's only 2 people ) thinks that he will be hooking up with Eowyn. Why you ask? Because they show him basically breaking up with Arwen, her leaving for the Sea, and Eowyn being one ripe tomato if you know what I mean. I think the possibility of a hookup is increased at least three fold in the movie because of all this. Whether this was intentional or not I don't know, but it is undeniably there.<P>Tar
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Old 02-23-2003, 12:46 AM   #11
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I must say, I was disappointed in the way PJ portrayed these three. Or at least, the actions of Arwen I found to be not at all like the book. As someone pointed out, it might have been Tar, the holding of the sword at Aragorns throat was not in keeping of her character. In the book, she is quiet, beautiful...and simply there. She is there, and always will be, for Aragorn to fall back on. She forgives and she comforts, although she does not forget - it is not in her people to do so. But...she is no warrior-princess. Her speeches such as "What's this? A ranger, caught off his guard?" and "If you want him, come and claim him!" are not like her character as portrayed in the book.<P>Also, I found the scene in the movie where Elrond tells Arwen her future if she marries King Aragorn - seeing as she can't marry him without him being king. But...I did not like the result. If PJ had stayed more faithfully to the book, she would have stayed with Aragorn nevertheless. She knew that this would happen, anyway. But, in the movie, she decided to sail to the Grey Havens with her people, and tells Aragorn of her decision. Which, as Tar said, puts him in a different position, at least as far as match-making movie-goers who haven't read the book go.<P>Aragorn. He is faithful to Arwen. He met her in his twenties in Rivendell, to where she had returned after staying in Lothlorien for a while. She, of course, is already older by far than Aragorn, although she looks no older than he. They betrothed themselves on Cerin Amroth in Lothlorien when he is much older, 49. (Incidentally, this means he's 89 at the time of the Fellowship.) Although he loved her from the first, it was only when Arwen saw him in Lothlorien that she did and knew it. Which knocks down your argument of chivalrous romance, my lady. Anyway, Aragorn loves Arwen and is faithful to her and vice versa. And PJ is more or less faithful up until the bit where Arwen decides to leave after all in the movie.<P>If you check the book, you'll see that the relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn is a lot different to the one portrayed in the movie. One reason, as aforesaid, is the absence of Arwen's faithfulness in the movie, which makes Aragorn...how shall I put it...single. Even though he wasn't married in the first place, it's about the best I can come up with. "And he beheld Eowyn, and thought her fair. Fair...but cold as the morning sun." That's how it goes more or less, anyway. I didn't check it up, I'm sorry, seeing as I know the essence of it. If I'm way out, correct me. Anyway, she came around with the wine cup later and he smiled at her...until he felt her hand tremble when he touched it in taking the cup. Then his face was troubled, and he thought no more on...er...whatever he was thinking. Again, I didn't look it up, but I think he was just joining in the merry atmosphere of the table. Until he felt Eowyn's hand tremble. At no time did he feel physically or otherwise attracted to her, although when he refused Eowyn's request to accompany him, he felt pain at doing so - denying the request of a lady - though only his closest friends could tell. I mean more here, but I can't put it into words. I'm sure book-readers will understand, though.<P>I'll get back to the movie portrayal of this. But first...Eowyn. The book version, first. She beholds Aragorn, and thinks he possesses <I>virtitis</I> - manliness, and courage, and virtue and all the things a man should possess. Besides, his looks were nothing to sneer at...nor his kingship. So all in all, it was the beginning of a crush. She fancied him - nothing more - but she did not let go of her fancy quickly, rather holding it - a treasured dream - close to her, until Faramir wiped this image away after a lot of work. And replaced it, not with the image of a man, but rather with a man she knew and loved, regardless of his faults. Anyway...<P>In the movie, they come across as equals, as Tar mentioned. Which is not so. She has not the experience - sheild-maiden though she be - that Aragorn has of battle.<P>Also in the movie, Aragorn evidently thinks that Arwen is going away. And so he starts thinking like a modern day guy who's just been dumped. In other words, he looks at Eowyn in another light, thinking 'hmmm...she's certainly attractive....' Eowyn, of course, obviously fancies him. Which he knows. As Tar said, 'she's one ripe tomato'. And Arwen has left the scene...<P>I think I'm going to have to see the movie again, because I can't remember the separation of Eowyn and Aragorn. But then, I don't want to see PJ ruin Faramir again. I'm going to fast-forward that bit when I buy the video. Anyway, can someone tell me on what terms they take leave of each other?<P>Yours thoughtfully,<P>~ Elentari II<p>[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Bekah ]
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Old 02-23-2003, 12:58 AM   #12
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Another interesting aspect that adds up to this impression is that she is the only female in the novel, and in the other works of Tolkien I have read, that is explicitly and physically desired; not, or at least not that much, by Aragorn, but by the convincingly repulsive Grima Wormtongue. <P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There are other examples. What about the guy who lusted for Luthien?<P>Were you referring to the repression of lust, my lady? I'd have to disagree with you either way, but at least I'd like to be clear which terms that I disagree with. I'd disagree if you meant lust because Tolkien didn't use allegory. And lust isn't repressed unfortunately. In either ME or here. I wish Eve hadn't eaten that blasted apple or banana or whatever the fruit of the center tree was.<P>~ Elentari II<p>[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Bekah ]
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Old 02-23-2003, 09:52 AM   #13
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Additional reading for those interested in a Books forum discussion related to this topic: <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002143" TARGET=_blank>Hope-lessly in Love</A>
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Old 02-23-2003, 03:15 PM   #14
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My, this is engaging! <P>In my opinion, I think that Eowyn is one heck of a restrained person, and thusly, did NOT throw herself at Aragorn's feet. Rather, she carefully chose her movements and speech to hint at her feelings.<P>Aragorn, however, (this is movie AND book based) needs care and love, but is also restrained enough to wait for Arwen. He thiks Eowyn is "nice" (laugh) but is waiting, waiting, waiting for his Lady Love.<P>In the end, Eowyn realizes her needs, a.k.a love, during a time of turmoil and it was simply because Aragorn eptomized what she need/wanted at the time that she developed those feelings; and Faramir, who was gentler, was who she loved.
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Old 02-23-2003, 05:35 PM   #15
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I'd LIKE to disagree with you, Tar-Palantir, because I'd LIKE to think of Arwen and Eowyn to be just as skilled warriors as Aragorn (being as I love strong women), but you do bring up a good point. However, I think mylady is saying on the level that ARAGORN though of Eowyn as just an equal, perhaps? I'm not sure.<P>I'd also like to think that both Eowyn and Arwen have been taught self defense, past the "wielding a sword" stage. /shrug
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Old 02-23-2003, 07:18 PM   #16
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I think this thread is rather above my head, but that's never stopped me before. <P>MyLady, I think your assessment is very appropiate for the movie relationship between Aragorn and Eowyn. The way PJ and co. handled the plot introduced uncertainty into the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen that simply wasn't there in the books, leaving the door open for a possible emotional entanglement between Aragorn and Eowyn. They probably did this to introduce sexual tension and spice things up a bit, and it worked very well, IMO. Certainly, it showed Eowyn's feelings for Aragorn very clearly while keeping his feelings opaque enough for speculation. My friend who has not read the books asked me "So what's going to happen between Aragorn and the horse-woman?" and he didn't believe me when I told him "Absolutely nothing." (I asked him if he *really* wanted to know before telling him, honestly!) Of course, the whole "Going to the Havens" thing will be revealed as a trick in the final movie, but it does serve to raise the specter of doubt for the length of TTT.<P>I agree with Tar-Palantir that there isn't any real sexual tension betwen Eowyn and Aragorn in the book. As Bekah pointed out, Aragorn is pushing 90 years old, and he's been faithfully engaged for almost 40 years by the time he meets Eowyn. He's over three times her age, though he doesn't look it. He never shows any attraction to her, and either ignores or shoots down her hints. To him, she must seem a wayward child who longs for things she really knows nothing about. It's as if a 13-year-old were infatuated with him: he's polite to her, but uncomfortable with the thought that she is attracted to him. I don't think Aragorn goes in for forbidden love with nymphets (a la Lolita), so I don't count his discomfort as suppressed sexual feelings, but actual embarrassment.<P>Beacause we're unaware of these details in the movie, Eowyn does seem on a more even footing with Aragorn and could possibly be a good match for him. (Especially when compared to a weepy Elven princess who seems to be abandoning her boyfriend.) So I guess I agree with both arguments in part:<P>Movie Eowyn: sexy, good possible love interest who will be unfortunately disapponted in RotK. (Or fortunately, for those of us who love Faramir.)<P>Book Eowyn: not a chance. And that's as it should be, IMO.<P>Cibbwin, much as it pains me to say it, Arwen and Eowyn can't be as good as Aragorn in combat. They just don't have the experience. That's not to say they wouldn't be as good (or better!) if they'd been crawling around in the Wilderness as long as he has been, but they haven't. Or at least, not to my knowledge.<P>-Lily
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Old 02-23-2003, 11:25 PM   #17
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I will almost proceed as far as to say that sex is introduced to the story through the meeting of Eowyn and Aragorn, and that his final rejection of her and union with Arwen represents the repression of sex and the victory of the pure, platonic, deep and real love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So wait, do you mean to say that the element of sexuality is somehow at odds with the element of real love? I don't understand. Did you mean to say something else, perhaps? Aragorn was certainly sexually attracted to Arwen, I doubt he would have married her otherwise. In terms of his relationship with Eowyn, then yes, here the possibility of getting it on was chucked out the window, but I don't think that "the union with Arwen" should be represented as a repression of sex. <P>As for the way the movie went about portraying Aragorn and Eowyn; I really did not notice anything in Viggo Mortensen's body language or facial expressions that would lead me to believe that he was attracted to Eowyn. Eowyn attraction was clearly shown, but even then, she came off like a little girl with a big crush on someone she hardly knows. <P>There is, I believe, a clear difference between the way that Arwen looks at Aragorn, and the way that Eowyn asesses him. Arwen comes off as someone with solid, mature, tender feelings, and as someone who <I>knows</I> the kind of guy that Aragorn is and loves him for it. Eowyn seems to be more like a star-struck teenager at a Backstreet Boys concert.<p>[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Lush ]
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Old 02-24-2003, 12:25 AM   #18
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Absolutely Lush! Which was why I said I'd disagree anyway - actually, especially if my lady did not refer to lust. I think sex is great, and is and essential part of marriage, but it shouldn't be the only thing between the couple. It should be a thingummajig supporting the bridge of their marriage, the actual bridge being love. The kind of love the book Arwen had for Aragorn and vice versa.<P>Please note, I think that my lady has a lot of intelligence and could go far - I'm not criticising her, merely her post.<P>~ Elentari II
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Old 02-24-2003, 12:34 AM   #19
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I'd LIKE to disagree with you, Tar-Palantir, because I'd LIKE to think of Arwen and Eowyn to be just as skilled warriors as Aragorn (being as I love strong women), but you do bring up a good point. However, I think mylady is saying on the level that ARAGORN though of Eowyn as just an equal, perhaps? I'm not sure.<P>I'd also like to think that both Eowyn and Arwen have been taught self defense, past the "wielding a sword" stage. /shrug<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No. If anything, it was the other way around. Aragorn knows his capacity, and she doesn't know her own so well. Aragorn knew that Eowyn wasn't his equal.<P>Arwen - no. She wouldn not have been taught how to use weapons properly. A knife in extreme self-defense is the utmost my imagination can go for the book Arwen, and I still don't really think even that.<P>Eowyn - yes. She was a sheild-maiden, and fought on the battle-field, and lived. <B>But</B> - she was not as good as Aragorn, who has spent several decades fighting with the other Dunadan.<P>~ Elentari II
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Old 02-24-2003, 10:19 AM   #20
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Hello again!<P>Unfortunately, I do not have the time or opportunity to contribute to this forum on a regular basis, but now I do. First of all I thought it very nice that so many have replied to my post, and that a very interesting discussion has emerged. Looong post coming up ... There were other aspects of the discussion I would also like to comment on, but that will have to wait. I think I have sufficiently challenged your patience already.<P>Bekah: That is the reason I wrote <I>that I have read</I>. That is LotR, The Hobbit, parts of the Silmarillion and parts of the Lays of Beleriand. I have not in my reading encountered any other woman who is desired in such a way as Wormtongue desires Éowyn. Nor did I intend to imply that sex is the only important part of a relationship, but I am certain that sexual tension can exist without romantic feelings accompanying it.<P>With regards to my previous post, allow me to emphasise: I think Aragorn is in love with Arwen. I think Éowyn falls truly in love with Faramir. I did not intent do question the nature of those feelings. But I think the relationship between Aragorn and Éowyn contains more than comeradeship, infatuation on her part and pity on his.<P>Did you know that Éowyn and Aragorn originally were coupled? In the last but one draft of LotR Arwen did not exist, and Éowyn and Aragorn fell in love. <P>Then Tolkien conceived the idea of reuniting the houses of Isildur and Earendil, and so he created Arwen as Aragorn's love interest and future queen, and wrote the romance between Faramir and Éowyn. This draft can, I have been told, be found in Chr. Tolkien's the History of Middle Earth. I have not read it, but Tolkienheads in three forums or so have referred to it. They also claim that Tolkien only changed what was necessary to make this ending work, but that large and vital parts, such as the initial meeting of Éowyn and Aragorn, remained unchanged. This may be the reason that many readers (I have to count myself among them) experience Arwen as a rather boring, undeveloped character, and that some (also including myself, but there are others too) see great tension between Éowyn and Aragorn.<P>I also think the film makers have interpreted the novel in this way, as they focus so much upon the exchange of looks and touches between the two, but never let them say anything that will make a well-read audience think he is unfaithful to Arwen. <P>I have my own interpretation of this. I know there are several others that may be more obvious, but from what I have read and seen I think it is at least valid.<P>There is a striking duality in Aragorn's character. He has been brought up by the elves, and is in love with an Elven lady. In a world where Men are portrayed as weak and passionate, Aragorn stands out as sensible, brave and just, a likely figure to make a realm of Men work when the elves have left.<P>At the same time he is undoubtedly a man, and their weakness, as he states very directly in the film, is also a part of him. He also confesses that he also feels the power and the temptation of the ring.<P>The Elves represent, as I look upon it, reason, self-command, and insight. In everything they do they are wise and noble; they seem to be above selfish desires and tantrums. Also, they are rather androgynous in their appearances; with their long hair and long robes. I associate them with only positive words, but sensuality is not one of them. In contrast, Men are, as mentioned, conflicted, passionate, intense, and more easily tempted. They are much more "physical", material, and there is, as I regard it, much more of the tension and confusion and spark between them that are normally associated with sexuality.<P>It has been mentioned that Éowyn does not really love Aragorn, as she does not know him, not in the same way she learns to love Faramir. This makes sense. I believe there is admiration and affection between them, but not love. But I do not think we are necessarily talking about feelings that require soulmating. <P>While Arwen is Aragorn's soulmate, and connects with him in a special way; one might say in the very typical Elvish, spiritual manner. But I think Éowyn appeals to him in a very human way. Her despair and passion touches him. On lordoftherings.net the put it like this: <I>Aragorn is drawn to her (Éowyn), but reminded of his undying love for the elf Arwen</I>. I think this is very well put. His love for Arwen is constant, but Éowyn, I still believe, awakes something in him. The tension is, however, very ambiguous, and I think the vague formulation <I>drawn to</I> is perfect, as it is as could mean attraction as well as compassion and pity. <P>As for sexual attraction between Aragorn and Arwen: It may very well be there, but we do not get the feeling of it, do we? They only look into each others eyes and speak long, grave sentences about their love for one another. Meanwhile, Aragorn and Éowyn interact with an unconsommated physicality that has been remarked by several critics; only look at the external reviews section on the IMDb TTT page. I am sure you have all experienced how a wordless tension can arise between you and someone you are not in love with, nor do really know; it is simply there. While I am quite certain this is not what Tolkien intended, this is what the Éowyn-Aragorn relationship comes across as to me. <P>To conclude: I think Arwen and Éowyn in a way represents the Elvish and the Human sides of Aragorn, that are battling inside him. By chosing Arwen, Aragorn lets the Elvish, unselfish, wise and rational side win and proves that he is a worthy king, instead of yielding to the Human, emotional and passionate storms that Éowyn represents.<P>Puh! Are you still hanging on? I only have to add that my interpretation is based largely on the films, but I think it also can be applied to the novel. I am looking forward to reading you replies.
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Old 02-24-2003, 01:02 PM   #21
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Hokey dokey. I don't have much time so I'll just reply to one part of your post, my lady.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Nor did I intend to imply that sex is the only important part of a relationship, but I am certain that sexual tension can exist without romantic feelings accompanying it.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I thought that was what you were saying, too. And I agree with you. I'd expand on this, but, as I said, I don't have much time.<P>Namarie, noldonyar!<P>~ Elentari II
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Old 02-24-2003, 01:44 PM   #22
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As for sexual attraction between Aragorn and Arwen: It may very well be there, but we do not get the feeling of it, do we? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Any normal (and by normal I mean not arranged or guided by practical intentions) courtship involves sexual attraction, and any healthy marriage involves sex! Tolkien doesn't write about it, because that does not interest him, and because it's an obvious element as it is. In the movie, it's slightly more explicit, as would befit a moving picture that is not able to utilize the subtelties of Tolkien's writing. Assuming that Aragorn beheld the vision of Lúthien reborn and wasn't sexually attracted is like assuming that Aragorn was gay. <P>Furthermore, the Elves are not all perfect, rational, calm creatures. This is evident in the LOTR, but even more so in the Sil.
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Old 02-24-2003, 02:30 PM   #23
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Edited to remove brainless content. Seein' things again, gotta find those meds...<p>[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]
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Old 02-24-2003, 04:52 PM   #24
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More like two straight lines with a diagonal line between them. Faramir with Eowyn, and vice versa; Eowyn is attracted to Aragorn; Aragorn loves Arwen, and vice versa.
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Old 02-27-2003, 04:07 PM   #25
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Eowyn is certainly attracted to Aragorn, but Faramir sums it up in the RotK when he says she looks up to him like a young soldier to a great captain. She loved him even though she knew it was impossible that they could be married, as Aragorn already was enaged with Arwen. It is still easy to love somebody though, even when you know you know they may never love you back (as is often with my case).
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Old 02-27-2003, 04:13 PM   #26
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Yes, he summed it up well, did he not? There are many kinds of love, and perhaps she loved him that way. But not the way Arwen loved Aragorn. Arwen would love Aragorn that way even if she knew that he didn't love her. (Which she didn't because he did love her) Arwen's was unconditional love; Eowyn's was the love of respect and adoration, without properly knowing her 'captain'.<P>~ Elentari II<p>[ February 28, 2003: Message edited by: Bekah ]
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Old 02-27-2003, 09:17 PM   #27
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I agree with Tar-Palantir. And while I'm not sure if he ever stated it like this, I believe the book Aragorn never ever considered Eowyn anything more than the daughter of a King whose kingdom he just helped save. Sure he might have felt sorry for her, but he was not attracted to her. As for the movie Aragorn... Well, PJ nearly ruined him. I hope I never run into Mr. Jackson or I'll give him a piece of my mind. To imply that Aragorn was ever drawn to Eowyn would utterly destroy the character that Tolkien created, IMO.<p>[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: aragornreborn ]
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Old 02-27-2003, 09:40 PM   #28
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True, but the movie Aragorn is very different from the book Aragorn, isn't he. Maybe having Aragorn possibly like Eowyn was the only way to keep her alive in the movie. Shame though.
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Old 03-03-2003, 01:49 AM   #29
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Whoa!<BR>When I started reading this I never knew it would be so long but well done everyone this is intelligent debate. I hope mine is intelligent too just Eowyn is my favourite character.<P>In the book Aragorn looking back on his knowledge of Eowyn says this<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>She is a fair maiden, fairest lady of a house of queens. And yet I know not how I should speak of her. When I first looked and percieved her unhappiness, it seemed to me that I saw a white flower standing straight and proud, shapely as a lily, and yet knew that it was hard, as if wrought by elf-wrights out of steel. or was it maybe, a frost that had turned it's sap to ice, and so it stood, bitter-sweet, still fair to see, but stricken, soon to fall and die? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He admires her yes, but is not(in the book) phisically attracted to her.<BR>Whereas Arwen he's like wow Luthien reborn beatiful with a capital B. (I didn't put that very well so I hope you know what I mean) then they meet in Lorien she falls in love with him and they get to know each other and then they plight their troth. Aragorn also says<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned....And yet Eomer I say that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But as you all say the movie is quite different Aragorn is what you could call a free agent and feelings aren't as well defined. No one says "and Eowyn got a crush on Aragorn (but he did not return the love) or (he perceived that and considered her).
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Old 03-04-2003, 09:41 PM   #30
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Very nicely put!!! *Clap, clap, clap* <P>Since I'm reading the King Arthur stories at the moment - by Rosemary Sutcliffe - I just wondered...Lancelot did not and could not love Elaine, who was very like Eowyn...L loved Guenever, who loved him in return. The big difference being that G was already married, and Arwen wasn't.<P>Just a thought...<P>~ Elentari II
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Old 03-05-2003, 04:03 PM   #31
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I read King Arthur once and now that I think on it, there is a parallel. Because both Arwen and Gwenavere (I really need spelling help) have something stopping them from marrying the ones they love(Elrond and Arthur, are stopping them I mean). Only, Elaine didn't slay a horrible fiery demon and end up with a noble steward.
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Old 03-05-2003, 06:03 PM   #32
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Yeah, you're right, but then the person who's holding Guenever back is her husband, and the person who's holding Arwen back is her father. So like you pointed out, there are differences.<P>Note that my avatar is The Lady of Shalott: i.e. Elaine the Lily.<P>~ Elentari II
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Old 03-06-2003, 03:46 AM   #33
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Obviously, I am fond of the stories about king Arthur, too! <BR> <BR>Perhaps you could compare Elaine's hopeless love for Lancelot to Eowyn's feelings (though I think Lancelot gave her more reason for falling in love, and she is not so brave and warlike as Eowyn). <BR>But you can hardly compare Lancelot (thoroughly human, a "sinful" man) to Aragorn (almost a superhuman hero in the book). <BR> Arwen and Guinevere cannot be compared at all! In fact, Tolkien himself had quite a different view of Guinevere, he didn't see her as the tragic heroine beloved by most Arthurian writers, instead he describes her as<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lady ruthless, <BR>fair as fay-woman and fell-minded, <BR>in the world walking for the woe of men.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry for the off topic, but I couldn't resist, since you were mentioning my nick...
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Old 03-06-2003, 07:00 AM   #34
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This is a great discussion, and I've really enjoyed reading it. I'd like to contribute more fully when I am less busy, but in the meantime, I'd like to toss in this quote from RotK.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Then it seemed to Gimli and Legolas who were nearby that she wept, and in one so stern and proud that seemed the more grievous. But she said: ‘Aragorn, wilt thou go?’<P>‘I will,’ he said.<P>‘Then wilt thou not let me ride with this company, as I have asked?’<P>‘I will not, lady,’ he said. ‘For that I could not grant without leave of the king and of your brother; and they will not return until tomorrow. But I count now every hour, indeed every minute. Farewell!’<P>Then she fell on her knees, saying: ‘I beg thee!’<P>‘Nay, lady,’ he said, and taking her by the hand he raised her. Then he kissed her hand, and sprang into the saddle, and rode away, and did not look back; and only those who knew him well and were near to him saw the pain that he bore.<P> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would also like to ask you all - given what PJ has done with Aragorn and Eowyn in the film TTT, is it possible that this scene could be played convincingly, as it is written, in his version of RotK? <BR>Is Miranda Otto's Eowyn "so stern and proud" that to see her weep would be all the "more grievous"? Has the PJ Aragorn/Eowyn relationship maintained the boundaries of formality, that would make her falling to her knees and begging him to take her with him as shocking and moving as it is in the text? Is Viggo's Aragorn 'noble' enough to portray the shame, the pity and pain Tolkien's Aragorn feels about Eowyn's unrequited love?<BR>I don't think so, unfortunately.
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Old 03-06-2003, 12:17 PM   #35
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Well, PJ might do that scene, but he would make it more like "You can't come with me because I've finally figured out that Arwen's my one and only love," instead of a "I'm sorry. I pity you" scene. Did that make sense?<P>It's tragic. It was so good in the book...<p>[ March 06, 2003: Message edited by: aragornreborn ]
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Old 03-06-2003, 02:39 PM   #36
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I don't think that this scene will be in the movie at all! <BR> PJ has taken Dunharrow away, and part of Aragorn and Eowyn's conversation there has already taken place in Helm's Deep.("What do you fear?" "A cage etc.") <BR> And whereas in the book it is in Dunharrow that Eowyn has this stricken look on her face because she believes Aragorn is going to his death on the paths of the dead, in the film she has that look when everyone thinks Aragorn is dead after falling off the cliff.<BR>They have changed so much that more changes must follow.
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Old 03-07-2003, 03:01 AM   #37
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aragornreborn, what you say does indeed make sense. There is too much of a questionmark over the intentions of Movie Aragorn for the scene to work. The level of flirting between A & E in the film could make this scene look like "I led you on but now I'm rebuffing you." Guinevere, you're also right, a lot of stuff from here was used in TTT.
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Old 04-20-2003, 11:32 PM   #38
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I'm not sure I want to see ROTK. There are so many changes in TTT, especially with the feelings between Arwen and Aragorn and Eowyn, that PJ will be forced to make the changes worse in ROTK, which saddens me, and makes me apprehensive as to what the movie will come out like.<P>Love,<P>~ Elentari II
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Old 05-05-2003, 05:55 PM   #39
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The way it all was handled between Aragorn and Eowyn was class! The scene at Helms Deep when Aragorn returned shows Eowyn light up, then quickly dim when she sees Legolas give the pendant to him... perfect! Miranda does it good!
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:29 AM   #40
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I think we will have that scene, but it will be moved to Edoras. There's a fabulous helicopter shot of Eowyn in front of the Golden Hall that has been featured in a number of previews but which never was seen in TTT. I've always wondered if that shot is associated with this scene. She looks so lost and alone as the camera pulls away from her.<P>H.C.
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