Full-length LotR Parody Movies

[Galadriel55]

...Is it wrong to still be cracking up every time I imagine Cur saying his throne line in utter seriousness?

And did I mention just how much my current schedule and talent for procrastination are conducive to music writing? The Bickering Bros, up until Enter Thingol. Ahh, it's good to be back. ^.^

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm still fiddling with the precise wording of the 'do you wanna fight me?' sequence, but I think it actually sounds better sung than written down, so I'm not worried.

Agreed. I thought this part yields itself very nicely to a sung dialogue, and didn't clutter it with musical details for the same reason. Background noise, featuring overly expressive and comically emotional voice solo.

I am a little hesitant about the O Silmarils section though, cause it's a lot faster here than it was the first time around. For comparison, this song is at 170 beats per minute, while Oath is at 140. If I do the slow-down function in the program, it does the trick for a few bars, but then keeps slowing down, so by the end of the section it's barely crawling along. What I can do is pull one from Renunciation and just record this segment at a different speed. If you feel it needs slowing, I think this is what I'll do - but only for the final recording, because I don't want to be splicing pieces in and out each time.

[Huinesoron]

It was certainly an odd decision for the villains of Act One to also be the main comic relief, but it really does work.

I've tried to sing the current version, and while I haven't managed to hit the cues on 'O Silmarils' yet (I'll need to work backwards from the end to figure out the timing for the early parts), I can say for sure that it's not too fast - because I finished singing at least one line early! So I can definitely fit it in, and I feel like they're supposed to be rushing a bit here - 'oh yeah, we promises Dad, better remind ourselves real quick'.

Also haven't got the 'the mortal would take' etc section down yet, but again, it just needs a bit of practice. I may get some time tomorrow evening to figure it out and get a rough recording.

It conti ues to be a very fun song.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I've tried to sing the current version, and while I haven't managed to hit the cues on 'O Silmarils' yet (I'll need to work backwards from the end to figure out the timing for the early parts), I can say for sure that it's not too fast - because I finished singing at least one line early! So I can definitely fit it in, and I feel like they're supposed to be rushing a bit here - 'oh yeah, we promises Dad, better remind ourselves real quick'.

Hmm. When the high note comes on after the long deep chord, is when it starts. I put a brief 1-2-3 "countdown" to it as a cue. I'll see if I can get a recording done too, to see how well it actually works as the cue.

Originally Posted by Hui

Also haven't got the 'the mortal would take' etc section down yet, but again, it just needs a bit of practice. I may get some time tomorrow evening to figure it out and get a rough recording.

I've had some trouble with that part myself, I think because the words don't quite fall onto a natural rhythm. I need to say it a few times in my head before it comes out decently.


ETA: a couple quick recordings -
1. Quarrel: it's fun! I didn't do the Do You Wanna Fight Me part justice, and tripped up on The Mortal, and for whatever reason was slightly off beat on Finrod Beats Us To It. But I found O Silmarils doable. You're right, it's faster but not unreasonably fast. Still, happy to follow your preference on the speed for this one.

2. Minions: this came out horribly off tune, but I was too cold to do another run today. Please don't pay attention to the quality of the singing, but this is kinda what I was imagining for the timing of the last stanza. Which is why I was so excited when you posted your version with "Oh my lord upon our border" in those spots, I didn't even think about that possibility. So I've been wondering if it might do well with "Oh my lord -!" x2, before the hesitant little minion voice comes in (I really like the hesitant minion, it's like he's scared he'll get smitten for speaking up). Or a full "Oh my lord, upon our border". Or "Oh my lord" the first time, and "upon our border" the second. Or "there is something" the second. So many possibilities! What are your thoughts on this? Anyways, once we figure the lyrics out, I will try to get a real and on-tune recording done sometime next week.

Speaking of lyrics, it's a minor thing, but what are your thoughts on "it shall brighten up my leisure", instead of "it will"?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I've had some trouble with that part myself, I think because the words don't quite fall onto a natural rhythm. I need to say it a few times in my head before it comes out decently.

The problem turns out to be that I just... wrote that line really badly. I've rewritten it to actually scan, and I think improved the rhyme too. I think it works now!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

ETA: a couple quick recordings -
1. Quarrel: it's fun!

It's so much fun. Right back at you. I had to re-record the start of 'O Silmarils', but got it eventually (I hope!). I also had to rerecord the new 'Mortal' line - for some reason I kept singing 'know' as 'noo'. No idea what was going on there, but it's really hard to avoid.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

2. Minions: this came out horribly off tune, but I was too cold to do another run today. Please don't pay attention to the quality of the singing, but this is kinda what I was imagining for the timing of the last stanza. Which is why I was so excited when you posted your version with "Oh my lord upon our border" in those spots, I didn't even think about that possibility. So I've been wondering if it might do well with "Oh my lord -!" x2, before the hesitant little minion voice comes in (I really like the hesitant minion, it's like he's scared he'll get smitten for speaking up). Or a full "Oh my lord, upon our border". Or "Oh my lord" the first time, and "upon our border" the second. Or "there is something" the second. So many possibilities! What are your thoughts on this? Anyways, once we figure the lyrics out, I will try to get a real and on-tune recording done sometime next week.

D'aww, spooked minion! Very nice. So I think it would work just fine as you sang it - I'd keep the minions creeping in one by one to fill the time. I'm quite intrigued by the idea of 'Oh my 'ord... upon our border... [Deep breath] Oh my lord, upon our border [etc]'. It sounds like the most natural version; just repeating 'Oh my lord' three times feels like it would need more graphics than we have (eg, Sauron snarling or dismissing the minion each time).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Speaking of lyrics, it's a minor thing, but what are your thoughts on "it shall brighten up my leisure", instead of "it will"?

Um. I feel like 'shall' is a stronger word: I'd probably want to emphasise it if it was there. Is that what you had in mind? Perfectly happy to do so, but I'm curious as to the why!

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The problem turns out to be that I just... wrote that line really badly. I've rewritten it to actually scan, and I think improved the rhyme too. I think it works now!

I think this works nicely. I really like "dare" there, it's a nice touch.

Originally Posted by Hui

It's so much fun. Right back at you. I had to re-record the start of 'O Silmarils', but got it eventually (I hope!). I also had to rerecord the new 'Mortal' line - for some reason I kept singing 'know' as 'noo'. No idea what was going on there, but it's really hard to avoid.

The Taliska rubbing off?

Originally Posted by Hui

D'aww, spooked minion! Very nice. So I think it would work just fine as you sang it - I'd keep the minions creeping in one by one to fill the time. I'm quite intrigued by the idea of 'Oh my 'ord... upon our border... [Deep breath] Oh my lord, upon our border [etc]'. It sounds like the most natural version; just repeating 'Oh my lord' three times feels like it would need more graphics than we have (eg, Sauron snarling or dismissing the minion each time).

Fair. I think that would work. And I'm glad you like Spooked Minion, I find him very enjoyable.

Originally Posted by Hui

Um. I feel like 'shall' is a stronger word: I'd probably want to emphasise it if it was there. Is that what you had in mind? Perfectly happy to do so, but I'm curious as to the why!

Nothing in particular, especially nothing to emphasize that I thought of. More that it has a nice ring to it, and semantics-wise seems more of a promise rather than a certainty of "will", which doesn't contradict the statement. Thowback to the "You cannot / shall not pass" discussions. But I don't think it needs such an emphasis, and if you feel it's a stronger word then I wouldn't go for it.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Nothing in particular, especially nothing to emphasize that I thought of. More that it has a nice ring to it, and semantics-wise seems more of a promise rather than a certainty of "will", which doesn't contradict the statement. Thowback to the "You cannot / shall not pass" discussions. But I don't think it needs such an emphasis, and if you feel it's a stronger word then I wouldn't go for it.

It's not a bad call; and thinking about it, an extra sibilant in that final verse would work nicely. "Unecsssspected midnight pleassssure / Thissss sssshall brighten up my leisssssure / Foolissssh elvesss have here adventured / Ssssssuch fine entertainment!"

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Taliska rubbing off?

Oh, don't, or you'll wind up with Yorkshire Beren again. Or worse - I'll wind up figuring out what everyone's accents would actually sound like, and that path ends with an Elvish Zong project.

(in which most of the songs are Sindarin, Galadriel and Amarie only use Quenya, and the SoF use Quenya when they're by themselves; Minions would be in Salonian Black Speech, and Beren singing alone - the opening of Neldoreth, and his solo in Dream - would be Adunaic for now, standing in for Taliska once the fabled Grammar appears)

(and Luthien and co speak Doriathrin Sindarin, which is slightly different; and Amarie uses Vanyarin Quenya, which again is different; and and and)

(look where you've sent my mind)

EDIT:

Queta nin, Orikon, queta:
Collolairelya ezella?
Ma lótilya palda vaima?
Ma fumë nusë, háno?
Meldanya háno,
Apsenita indo.

Queta, Enyalië, queta:
Manen aurarya hehtanes?
Ma silmë i elen cennes?
Palantirë veryanes
Umbar illi hos,
Umbar húna hos.

Tell to me, Heather, tell:
Your summer cloak [is] green?
Are your blossoms [a] wide robe?
Does he sleep beneath, brother?
My beloved brother,
The forgiving heart.

Tell, Memory, tell:
How all his possessions he forsook?
Light of which star did he see?
To far-see he dared
The fate of all the Host
Accursed fate of the Host.

The 'Ap-' at the end of stanza 1 is one of those additional pre-syllables I abuse so often, but otherwise I think it both scans and rhymes. 'Orikon' is a very old word for heather, while 'ezella' is an adoption from Valian; I've allowed Galadriel to use both for poetry. Also it amuses me immensely that the very first word is 'Speak!'

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

(look where you've sent my mind)

Right, blame it all on me Take note, next time I go to record this will be sung.

(I also have this vision in my mind where after we get through all the real stuff, we also record the best snippets of the parodies, crossovers, Elvish, and whatever else we come up with in the meantime as a bloopers reel. The fact that I'm planning a bloopers reel when I can't even get though half of the music in... 9 months?... is perhaps a sign of arrogance, or impatience, but it might be the carrot to get me going faster...)



Aaaaaaaand Thingol takes the mic! I had to do a few takes before I could get Thingol to sound dignified. Or, if that's not the right word for it, perhaps self-important would do. See if he sounds okay, I'm more than happy to fiddle around with the style there.

I am so excited for Melian! ^.^ I was looking forwards to this for a very long time, and I hope I don't disappoint myself if my musical efforts don't live up to my expectations. In terms of the flow, my goal is to make it so that every piece from Renunciation till the end of Aria can easily be combined to go right after each other without pause. Quarrel starts on the same note as Renunciation ends, they could be glued together without pause. I will do a several second transition to Melian's 4-liner, which will be a separate document for speed and instrument purposes. Which would then seamlessly transition to the Aria proper with only a brief pause. If it is to be split up into separate videos, though, I think it would be easier to combine both Tonguelashing parts together rather than stick the 4-liner after Quarrel. But if you feel that we should stick to the original script on this, I can re-plan the transitions so that there's not so much hanging expectation between "grace of Eru" and "with single wave". Much easier to re-plan than to rewrite.

Also, speaking of Melian's 4-liner, I recall a distant discussion on her opening line, and I think we were trying to make it match her Duet lines. So, I did my homework, and came up with "O my husband dear, how your course runs ill" as a potential alternative to put on the drawing board.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Right, blame it all on me Take note, next time I go to record this will be sung.

^_^ Well then, I'll mention that the full translation is on the end of the Libretto now. About half of the verse-stanzas have an extra syllable in the last line, but other than that it should scan nicely. I'm quite pleased to have gotten to use 'telconta', 'palantir', 'voronwe', and 'aure entuluva' (Day shall come again!), as well as sneaking the plural of 'huine' in towards the end.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

(I also have this vision in my mind where after we get through all the real stuff, we also record the best snippets of the parodies, crossovers, Elvish, and whatever else we come up with in the meantime as a bloopers reel. The fact that I'm planning a bloopers reel when I can't even get though half of the music in... 9 months?... is perhaps a sign of arrogance, or impatience, but it might be the carrot to get me going faster...)

Oh absolutely. Possibly some of my live-action experiments too; it'll be fun!

(Honestly, 9 months to score half a musical isn't bad going!)

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Aaaaaaaand Thingol takes the mic! I had to do a few takes before I could get Thingol to sound dignified. Or, if that's not the right word for it, perhaps self-important would do. See if he sounds okay, I'm more than happy to fiddle around with the style there.

This is good! I'll see if I can get it recorded and maybe even animated tonight. I didn't hear any problems.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am so excited for Melian! ^.^ I was looking forwards to this for a very long time, and I hope I don't disappoint myself if my musical efforts don't live up to my expectations. In terms of the flow, my goal is to make it so that every piece from Renunciation till the end of Aria can easily be combined to go right after each other without pause. Quarrel starts on the same note as Renunciation ends, they could be glued together without pause. I will do a several second transition to Melian's 4-liner, which will be a separate document for speed and instrument purposes. Which would then seamlessly transition to the Aria proper with only a brief pause. If it is to be split up into separate videos, though, I think it would be easier to combine both Tonguelashing parts together rather than stick the 4-liner after Quarrel. But if you feel that we should stick to the original script on this, I can re-plan the transitions so that there's not so much hanging expectation between "grace of Eru" and "with single wave". Much easier to re-plan than to rewrite.

Also, speaking of Melian's 4-liner, I recall a distant discussion on her opening line, and I think we were trying to make it match her Duet lines. So, I did my homework, and came up with "O my husband dear, how your course runs ill" as a potential alternative to put on the drawing board.

Perfectly happy for all Melian's parts to be a single track; I think we've got them that way in the Libretto nowadays too. I've also put in your suggested line; I mean you're the one singing it! It puts the mid-line breath back where it should be, right? As well as matching the other copies of the line.

A thought: since we're literally halfway through making a movie here, might it be sensible to get the thread moved to the Movies forum (or perhaps leave the original parodies here and split off the Zonging)? I always feel slightly worried about pushing away the preview for other Mirth threads.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

^_^ Well then, I'll mention that the full translation is on the end of the Libretto now. About half of the verse-stanzas have an extra syllable in the last line, but other than that it should scan nicely. I'm quite pleased to have gotten to use 'telconta', 'palantir', 'voronwe', and 'aure entuluva' (Day shall come again!), as well as sneaking the plural of 'huine' in towards the end.

*applauds* Well now it just had to be done! (and voice alone, if you wanna insert Finrod and fiddle with their volumes or whatnot). This is fantastic! I am equally pleased with all of these recognizable phrases, especially "aure entuluva" - which I only now realized I've been mispronouncing for years, but hopefully I got it right here. Same for all the rest of it. Also, am I correct in thinking that while "melamar" means home, its literal meaning is "beloved house"? That is the most beautiful thing I have learned today. Gosh I love this song!

I also liked your forgiving heart / empty heart in the end of the stanzas, it's perfect. I think my favourite lines to say though were the ramar / melamar couplet. It rolls off the tongue so perfectly, and the sound of the language is very beautiful.

If we're actually gonna make a thing from this, I'll do a better recording. Now that I think of it, maybe I should re-record the English one too, now that I know how to crop things and combine different records on Audacity. And fiddle with the music a bit. (later, later, after the primary work is done, I know!). I really really love that song, and the Elvish makes it sound really cool. ^.^

Originally Posted by hui

Oh absolutely. Possibly some of my live-action experiments too; it'll be fun!

Certainly! "Coming soon to theatres near you" *cut to live action Renunciation*

Originally Posted by Hui

It puts the mid-line breath back where it should be, right? As well as matching the other copies of the line.

That was the thought behind it. If you're happy with this, I'm happy.

Originally Posted by Hui

A thought: since we're literally halfway through making a movie here, might it be sensible to get the thread moved to the Movies forum (or perhaps leave the original parodies here and split off the Zonging)? I always feel slightly worried about pushing away the preview for other Mirth threads.

I mean, as far as pushing the preview, we're bound to do that regardless of what forum we're in. This has been the most active thread in the last year, with the exception of the WW games. However, I agree that 11 pages piggy-backed onto a thread that's not entirely on this topic is a bit out of proportion, and it wouldn't be wrong to split off the Zong. I can PM some mods to see what can be done. If we were to create a separate thread for this, should we title it Finrod: The Rock Opera, or Finrod-Zong, or both separated by an aka?

In the mean time, here are some Minions (starts around 1:15 because of the silenced intro). Subject to change should any bright ideas arise. I tried to match how you pronounced some of the words, which we say differently. And is this what you were thinking of for "Oh my lord - upon our border"?

Btw, the music, cause it's been a while since I posted it.


Edit: I was on a roll today. How do you like twinklebell Melian? Fully inspired by your twinkling star-flower-lamps.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

*applauds* Well now it just had to be done! (and voice alone, if you wanna insert Finrod and fiddle with their volumes or whatnot). This is fantastic! I am equally pleased with all of these recognizable phrases, especially "aure entuluva" - which I only now realized I've been mispronouncing for years, but hopefully I got it right here. Same for all the rest of it.

I am really very impressed by this. I was slightly terrified that I'd listen and find out we disagreed on how to read Quenya, but nope - your pronunciation is exactly what I was imagining, and extremely impressive! Given the nightmare words like 'collolairelya' and all those -ngw-s towards the end, I'm amazed you didn't tie your tongue in knots!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Also, am I correct in thinking that while "melamar" means home, its literal meaning is "beloved house"? That is the most beautiful thing I have learned today. Gosh I love this song!

I also liked your forgiving heart / empty heart in the end of the stanzas, it's perfect. I think my favourite lines to say though were the ramar / melamar couplet. It rolls off the tongue so perfectly, and the sound of the language is very beautiful.

I think you're right on melamar (I didn't spot that!); Tolkien did create some lovely words. 'Empty heart' - there was absolutely no way to translate 'in bitterness of loss', the words simply don't exist. So I figured echoing the previous lines would work out. ^_^

My favourite coinage in here is 'rolaure' in the very last line; it literally means east-gold (ro-laure), and actually ends with 'aure', leading perfectly into that final entuluva.

Oh! And one I'd forgotten I did: when Fírië verya Melca, 'Death marries Might', that 'Melca' is actually 'Melka' - the root of 'Melkor'.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If we're actually gonna make a thing from this, I'll do a better recording. Now that I think of it, maybe I should re-record the English one too, now that I know how to crop things and combine different records on Audacity. And fiddle with the music a bit. (later, later, after the primary work is done, I know!). I really really love that song, and the Elvish makes it sound really cool. ^.^

I will be making A Thing, because I know exactly how I want to animate it. But it'll certainly take a while to sort out, so no rush. And, splicing in new vocals is probably the simplest change to make, so I'm happy to do that whenever you decide to record them. New music is either very simple (if it doesn't change the timing) or very variable (if it does).

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

That was the thought behind it. If you're happy with this, I'm happy.

Go for it!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I mean, as far as pushing the preview, we're bound to do that regardless of what forum we're in. This has been the most active thread in the last year, with the exception of the WW games. However, I agree that 11 pages piggy-backed onto a thread that's not entirely on this topic is a bit out of proportion, and it wouldn't be wrong to split off the Zong. I can PM some mods to see what can be done. If we were to create a separate thread for this, should we title it Finrod: The Rock Opera, or Finrod-Zong, or both separated by an aka?

Part of my thought process is that 'except for WW' - because Werewolf is sharing the Mirth forum with us! I think 'Finrod: The Rock Opera' is a nice informative title, and covers all the versions, but I'm certainly not opposed to having a nice bit of Zonging in the title too. ^_^

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In the mean time, here are some Minions (starts around 1:15 because of the silenced intro). Subject to change should any bright ideas arise. I tried to match how you pronounced some of the words, which we say differently. And is this what you were thinking of for "Oh my lord - upon our border"?

Btw, the music, cause it's been a while since I posted it.

This I will look at when I get a chance (maybe tomorrow?), but don't feel you need to mirror my pronunciation! I think you even wrote that one, so I'll happily defer to your version.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Edit: I was on a roll today. How do you like twinklebell Melian? Fully inspired by your twinkling star-flower-lamps.

Oh yes. That will fit perfectly with a slow fade from Nargothrond+Doriath to Doriathrin Night. I'm already excited for this one!

On my side, I've managed to put the Quarrel video together:

08 - Quarrel

It opens directly from the end of Renunciation, and will flow directly into the Aria. Not sure whether I'll have Thingol drift over to the left to make room for Melian, or keep the left side as a 'display' area for popping up portraits of people mentioned; I'll have to see how it looks.

(I really need to finish off the Prologue pictures, too... and I was going to try and make a prettier logo... lots to do!)

EDIT: So I looked at the various extant Zong logos (this, this, this), and before I knew it I'd gone and roughed together my own version:



It will almost certainly go through constant tweaking (I already want to remove the black lines entirely and see how that works), but as a general concept, what do you think?

(Font is Aniron, which is free for personal use, and handily has Cyrillic support.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I am really very impressed by this. I was slightly terrified that I'd listen and find out we disagreed on how to read Quenya, but nope - your pronunciation is exactly what I was imagining, and extremely impressive! Given the nightmare words like 'collolairelya' and all those -ngw-s towards the end, I'm amazed you didn't tie your tongue in knots!

I am glad that I did not screw it up. But if I did, just let me know before I re-record. I was going one stanza at a time, and practiced saying it before I sung it. The final chorus (look my dear brother) was by far the hardest, it took me several takes to not majorly mess up - and I think I still screwed up at the very end by turning entuluva into entulava (of all words there, to mess up the one I actually know ). I think, if you were just to give me the Quenya text and tell me to read, I'd say it differently when it comes to stress - I feel that for the two-syllable words (queta, hano, etc), I always wanna put the emphasis on the first syllable. But it helps to know the melody and read accordingly.

Originally Posted by Hui

I think you're right on melamar (I didn't spot that!); Tolkien did create some lovely words. 'Empty heart' - there was absolutely no way to translate 'in bitterness of loss', the words simply don't exist. So I figured echoing the previous lines would work out. ^_^

I love it! It's absolutely perfect. ^.^

Out of curiosity - how much of this are you getting from your own head, as opposed to a very thorough trawl through the Elvish dictionaries? I am still amazed at how you just take the lyrics and go translating into the Tolkien languages like no big deal.

Originally Posted by Hui

My favourite coinage in here is 'rolaure' in the very last line; it literally means east-gold (ro-laure), and actually ends with 'aure', leading perfectly into that final entuluva.

Oh! And one I'd forgotten I did: when Fírië verya Melca, 'Death marries Might', that 'Melca' is actually 'Melka' - the root of 'Melkor'.

Oh, nice one on rolaure! I did not see that, I thought the root was still "aure". And I did notice Melka, I figured that one out. I actually wonder, are there different words in Elvish for death when it comes to Elves as opposed to mortals, since the Elves know them to be metaphysically different entities?

Originally Posted by Hui

I will be making A Thing, because I know exactly how I want to animate it. But it'll certainly take a while to sort out, so no rush. And, splicing in new vocals is probably the simplest change to make, so I'm happy to do that whenever you decide to record them. New music is either very simple (if it doesn't change the timing) or very variable (if it does).

Yay! A Thing! New vocals will be coming... dunno, but at some point. And new music will probably be at the very end, and will have the exact same timing. My hands are just itching to fix the things I was too inexperienced to do better for pieces like Lament and Duel. And the whole Doriath Duet needs a makeover - I mean, when I wrote that, it was still supposed to be realistically playable with the two instruments I sort of know how to play, and as a result sticks out as very plain and simple, especially coming after a complex piece like Meeting. But all within the frame of the same number of bars and the same speed, more about what to do in the middle.

Originally Posted by Hui

Part of my thought process is that 'except for WW' - because Werewolf is sharing the Mirth forum with us! I think 'Finrod: The Rock Opera' is a nice informative title, and covers all the versions, but I'm certainly not opposed to having a nice bit of Zonging in the title too. ^_^

Sounds good! I'm not sure how often the Admins actually visit the site, but as soon as one of them checks their PM box we'll have an answer. I don't believe I have any non-Downs contact with any of them to reach them sooner. Though if you have FB, it might be possible to find someone through the BD facebook group. But it's no rush, we'll get an answer when we get it.

Originally Posted by Hui

On my side, I've managed to put the Quarrel video together:

08 - Quarrel

Yeeeessss! My absolute favourite thing is all the chuckles and snorts and other noises. Also, "the shove", perfection. Oh, and the "Ooo, your ears are smoking" - caught me by surprise and made me laugh.

Originally Posted by Hui

(I really need to finish off the Prologue pictures, too... and I was going to try and make a prettier logo... lots to do!)

There's no rush. I'm going through a burst of creativity right now, but I also know that it's gonna have to slow down again in a couple weeks, so I'm just trying to catch up to my imaginary schedule while I can. There's absolutely no rush to get everything done at once, we probably have another 9 months ahead to do it.

Originally Posted by Hui

It will almost certainly go through constant tweaking (I already want to remove the black lines entirely and see how that works), but as a general concept, what do you think?

(Font is Aniron, which is free for personal use, and handily has Cyrillic support.)

I like it! Certainly I like the concept, and I like what it looks like now too, but not to temper your experiments with it. And I heartily approve of the font. Speaking of fonts, I think it's a really nice touch to give a nod to the original language. Do you think we'll need tengwar in there too? The font already looks kinda Elvish, it resembles tengwar characters as it is...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am glad that I did not screw it up. But if I did, just let me know before I re-record. I was going one stanza at a time, and practiced saying it before I sung it. The final chorus (look my dear brother) was by far the hardest, it took me several takes to not majorly mess up - and I think I still screwed up at the very end by turning entuluva into entulava (of all words there, to mess up the one I actually know ). I think, if you were just to give me the Quenya text and tell me to read, I'd say it differently when it comes to stress - I feel that for the two-syllable words (queta, hano, etc), I always wanna put the emphasis on the first syllable. But it helps to know the melody and read accordingly.

I think the only actual mispronunciation I caught was 'fumë' in the first verse, which should be 'foomë'; I think you used (ironically!) the vowel from 'fume'. I can see what you mean about entulu/ava, but it passes as a schwa with no problems.

The stress is probably in completely the wrong place! My vague memory is that Quenya strongly prefers to stress the second syllable from the end, but I've just stuck it wherever works for the song. I do the same in English (a-MIIII-ca-bly), so at least I'm consistent. ^_^

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Out of curiosity - how much of this are you getting from your own head, as opposed to a very thorough trawl through the Elvish dictionaries? I am still amazed at how you just take the lyrics and go translating into the Tolkien languages like no big deal.

Heh, I confess: I'm pulling the grammar from Ardalambion and the words from Eldamo (which is a fantastic resource and I will be very sad when it someday goes the way of all internet). I actually did the Ardalambion Quenya course back in the day, but mostly what I'm using from that is things like 'dual forms exist' or 'there's a verb specifically for introducing a speech' (equë, parsed as 'thus spake'). I can remember the structure of the language, but the details are coming from the web.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I actually wonder, are there different words in Elvish for death when it comes to Elves as opposed to mortals, since the Elves know them to be metaphysically different entities?

There are actually two Q. verbs 'to die': firë and qualë. Firë is also glossed 'breathe forth, fade', so you'd think it would be the Elvish version, but 'fírima' means 'mortal, able to die'. The actual distinction they seem to make is that qualë is connected to pain - ie, it's closer to 'be slain'. So the difference is willing vs unwilling death, I guess? Sindarin may have the same distinction: they have a verb fir-, 'to die', but also a noun 'gurth', 'death', apparently used in violent contexts.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yeeeessss! My absolute favourite thing is all the chuckles and snorts and other noises. Also, "the shove", perfection. Oh, and the "Ooo, your ears are smoking" - caught me by surprise and made me laugh.

It's typical - I've spent months trying to figure out the best monosyllable to start the ears line with, and the best one is the one I come up with literally while singing it.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

There's no rush. I'm going through a burst of creativity right now, but I also know that it's gonna have to slow down again in a couple weeks, so I'm just trying to catch up to my imaginary schedule while I can. There's absolutely no rush to get everything done at once, we probably have another 9 months ahead to do it.

True... but at some point we're going to do Appeal and Amarie, and then I'll want to do a single video of everything up to the Aria, so I need to have it ready by then. ^_^

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I like it! Certainly I like the concept, and I like what it looks like now too, but not to temper your experiments with it. And I heartily approve of the font. Speaking of fonts, I think it's a really nice touch to give a nod to the original language. Do you think we'll need tengwar in there too? The font already looks kinda Elvish, it resembles tengwar characters as it is...

Now that's a very good idea. Here's the revised version, which I think I'm happy with (for now!):



I also have a copy with the Tengwar in the Mode of Beleriand (full letters for the vowels), but I don't like it as much. ^_^ This will accompany the title for the individual songs, and in the full video will come after the intro slides, just before Galadriel starts singing.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Taking the new logo out for a spin, and letting Sauron and the Minions have their moment: 13 - Sauron's Minions.

I've taken the liberty of naming the minions - Draugluin is obvious, Thuringwethil is the veiled woman, and the orc-like creature gets to be Gorgol, who gets one mention in the Lay of Leithian:

They whispered 'Beren', and began
in secret swords to whet, and soft
by shrouded hearths at evening oft
songs they would sing of Beren's bow,
of Dagmor his sword: how he would go
silent to camps and slay the chief,
or trapped in his hiding past belief
would slip away, and under night
by mist or moon, or by the light
of open day would come again.
Of hunters hunted, slayers slain
they sang, of Gorgol the Butcher hewn,
of ambush in Ladros, fire in Drûn,
of thirty in one battle dead,
of wolves that yelped like curs and fled,
yea, Sauron himself with wound in hand.
Thus one alone filled all that land
with fear and death for Morgoth's folk

(Side note: Beren the Outlaw is awesome.)

Sure, he's meant to be dead - but then, Finrod's meant to have a brother living in Nargothrond. Unlike Boldog, the other named Leithian orc, at least he wasn't reported dead in this very scene. Or maybe it's just another Gorgol.

(His name is probably contracted from Gorngol, which means 'dread slaughter'. He's a charmer.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think the only actual mispronunciation I caught was 'fumë' in the first verse, which should be 'foomë'; I think you used (ironically!) the vowel from 'fume'. I can see what you mean about entulu/ava, but it passes as a schwa with no problems.

The neural connections are strong. They are stubbornly connecting the visual of the letters "fume" to the speech centres forming the sounds for "fume". It's so hard to get rid of this pronunciation. I was trying to imagine the word written in Cyrillic to get rid of this association, and I'm still not sure if I've fully succeeded.

I also realized after I finished recording multiple takes that I'm not very consistent with double consonants. Sometimes I pronounce them as double, and sometimes I don't make the distinction. How noticeable is that, and do I need to fix it?

Here's the take I was most happy with. Let me know if anything stands out.

Originally Posted by Hui

The stress is probably in completely the wrong place! My vague memory is that Quenya strongly prefers to stress the second syllable from the end, but I've just stuck it wherever works for the song. I do the same in English (a-MIIII-ca-bly), so at least I'm consistent. ^_^

Considering I have the bending of the laws of grammar on my conscience, I'm not one to judge. ^.^ But it's good to know I'm neither crazy about plain-text Quenya, nor completely mis-singing the song.

Originally Posted by Hui

Heh, I confess: I'm pulling the grammar from Ardalambion and the words from Eldamo (which is a fantastic resource and I will be very sad when it someday goes the way of all internet). I actually did the Ardalambion Quenya course back in the day, but mostly what I'm using from that is things like 'dual forms exist' or 'there's a verb specifically for introducing a speech' (equë, parsed as 'thus spake'). I can remember the structure of the language, but the details are coming from the web.

That is still so incredibly impressive. I can't imagine how you do it, but I'm glad you do it. And always happy to lend the partial Russian accent to any Elvish project.

Originally Posted by Hui

There are actually two Q. verbs 'to die': firë and qualë. Firë is also glossed 'breathe forth, fade', so you'd think it would be the Elvish version, but 'fírima' means 'mortal, able to die'. The actual distinction they seem to make is that qualë is connected to pain - ie, it's closer to 'be slain'. So the difference is willing vs unwilling death, I guess? Sindarin may have the same distinction: they have a verb fir-, 'to die', but also a noun 'gurth', 'death', apparently used in violent contexts.

Fascinating! So distinguishing a natural death from an unnatural one. I suppose that also makes perfect sense with Elvish "physiology", with both willing and unwilling deaths a possibility. I suppose very few mortals have "willing" deaths, but there are still natural deaths that I suppose can be likened to wearying of the world, or a weakening hold on the world, as opposed to untimely unnatural deaths.

Originally Posted by Hui

True... but at some point we're going to do Appeal and Amarie, and then I'll want to do a single video of everything up to the Aria, so I need to have it ready by then. ^_^

You follow your schedule, I'll try to follow mine, and maybe we'll finish this before the Sun fails and the Moon is dead?

Speaking of that, I am sadly not making good progress on Aria. I was definitely overexcited for it, and I'm getting the same problem as with Oath and Renunciation: I can write the notes, but it doesn't sound right. I kept trying to fix it, but I might just erase the whole thing and start from scratch.

Originally Posted by Hui

Now that's a very good idea. Here's the revised version, which I think I'm happy with (for now!):

Nice! I like it!

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I've taken the liberty of naming the minions - Draugluin is obvious, Thuringwethil is the veiled woman, and the orc-like creature gets to be Gorgol, who gets one mention in the Lay of Leithian:

Gorgol sounds like an excellent name for the scarecrow-orc minion. That snaga. ^.^

I've put both new videos on the intro post now, and even dared to put a placeholder for Aria in hopes that it will come back to me.



PS: my brand new earphones are now malfunctioning too. >< I'm only hearing out of one side - maybe that's why the Aria keeps sounding wrong, if I don't hear half the instruments properly? :-D


PPS: forgot to mention: in Minions, around 1:07, there is a little flash of minion which I am not sure was intentional. Just wanted to bring it up.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I also realized after I finished recording multiple takes that I'm not very consistent with double consonants. Sometimes I pronounce them as double, and sometimes I don't make the distinction. How noticeable is that, and do I need to fix it?

Well... I didn't notice it. So I think it's fine? I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing 'cene' as 'cen-ne', so...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Here's the take I was most happy with. Let me know if anything stands out.

I spliced this in this morning and have no complaints. The Thing is... maybe half done?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Fascinating! So distinguishing a natural death from an unnatural one. I suppose that also makes perfect sense with Elvish "physiology", with both willing and unwilling deaths a possibility. I suppose very few mortals have "willing" deaths, but there are still natural deaths that I suppose can be likened to wearying of the world, or a weakening hold on the world, as opposed to untimely unnatural deaths.

I guess it depends how ancestral that Numenorean thing with willingly giving up your life is. Maybe all Edain did it, right up until whichever Tar decided to stop!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

You follow your schedule, I'll try to follow mine, and maybe we'll finish this before the Sun fails and the Moon is dead?

Speaking of that, I am sadly not making good progress on Aria. I was definitely overexcited for it, and I'm getting the same problem as with Oath and Renunciation: I can write the notes, but it doesn't sound right. I kept trying to fix it, but I might just erase the whole thing and start from scratch.

Oh dear. :-/ Having completely thrown out the original character portraits that one time, I completely understand - but that doesn't make it any less painful.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

PPS: forgot to mention: in Minions, around 1:07, there is a little flash of minion which I am not sure was intentional. Just wanted to bring it up.

Oh bother. :-/ Yeah, their fade-in effect sometimes drifts slightly, leaving them visible right at the start. I'll fix it soon.

Quick question: in the event that any other male singing voices turn out to exist, I've obviously snagged Finrod as the one I'm keeping for myself. Is there one of the female leads you'd like to similarly mark as yours? Just in case I actually stumble across a singer who's interested.

EDIT: I've fixed the Minions, and updated the doc to match. Found a similar issue in the ongoing Quenya Lament, so I'll make sure to keep an eye on it from now on!

hS

[Huinesoron]

Many thanks to Mith for our new home! We'll try not to make a mess.

As noted in the edit above, I fixed the glitch in the Minions, and then I... uh... finished the Quenya Lament as well.

It's a wildly different style of video, but it worked out pretty much how I hoped. It also features a cameo by a certain Very Good Boy who has been cruelly left out of the story so far; hopefully this will help make it up to him.

Altariello Nainie

(The Quenya title is a reference in itself: in Tolkien's Tengwar manuscript of 'Namárië', he titled it 'Altariello nainië Lóriendessë' - Galadriel's Lament in Lórien. 'Altariel' is the pure Quenya form of 'Galadriel'; we more usually see the Telerin form, 'Alatariel'.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

It's so weird to be up in the Movies. It's gonna take some getting used to. Seconded, thank you Mithadan for the move!

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As noted in the edit above, I fixed the glitch in the Minions, and then I... uh... finished the Quenya Lament as well.

It's a wildly different style of video, but it worked out pretty much how I hoped. It also features a cameo by a certain Very Good Boy who has been cruelly left out of the story so far; hopefully this will help make it up to him.

Altariello Nainie

(The Quenya title is a reference in itself: in Tolkien's Tengwar manuscript of 'Namárië', he titled it 'Altariello nainië Lóriendessë' - Galadriel's Lament in Lórien. 'Altariel' is the pure Quenya form of 'Galadriel'; we more usually see the Telerin form, 'Alatariel'.)

This is fantastic!!!!!!!! I love this video, it turned out beautiful! Did you draw any of the pictures in the beginning?

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Quick question: in the event that any other male singing voices turn out to exist, I've obviously snagged Finrod as the one I'm keeping for myself. Is there one of the female leads you'd like to similarly mark as yours? Just in case I actually stumble across a singer who's interested.

Not sure. I mean, if we get to the "turn it over to the pros to do it properly" stage, I relinquish all rights to whoever can sing it better. But for the "let's do it ourselves" stage, I think recent events just proved how much I love singing the Lament (I have a good chunk of it memorized in Quenya too now, it's really annoying when it gets stuck in my head in Quenya). So, going with that, I guess Galadriel? Which is also very fitting, all names considered. :P Though maybe Aria will change my mind.


I updated all links in the intro post, Minions have the glitchless video, and Lament has the Quenya link. ^.^ By the way, I've also been indexing your live action videos there. Do you have any objections to that?

Good news, today I got another new pair of earphones (aaaaah-gain ), and having tested them with several runs of Nainie I think they work just fine. So I shall resume attempts on Aria in the coming days.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

This is fantastic!!!!!!!! I love this video, it turned out beautiful!

Thank you! The only thing I didn't manage to do was have the Tengwar literally write themselves onto the screen; that would be a vastly more involved project.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Did you draw any of the pictures in the beginning?

Ha, no. ^_^ I spent about half an hour on Wikimedia Commons finding public-domain drawings that would work for each attribute - 'heather' was the easiest, while deciding what to use for 'memory' and 'fate' were the hardest. Huan is here an Irish Wolfhound, because... wolf.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not sure. I mean, if we get to the "turn it over to the pros to do it properly" stage, I relinquish all rights to whoever can sing it better. But for the "let's do it ourselves" stage, I think recent events just proved how much I love singing the Lament (I have a good chunk of it memorized in Quenya too now, it's really annoying when it gets stuck in my head in Quenya). So, going with that, I guess Galadriel? Which is also very fitting, all names considered. Though maybe Aria will change my mind.

Oh, yeah, if we get Actual Singers to do the whole thing I'll drop singing completely! But for the Original Cast Recording, I'll make a note not to give Galadriel away. ^_^

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I updated all links in the intro post, Minions have the glitchless video, and Lament has the Quenya link. ^.^ By the way, I've also been indexing your live action videos there. Do you have any objections to that?

Perfectly happy to have them listed; I've put them in the Libretto too. They're entirely silly, but this whole project edges that way. ^_^

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Good news, today I got another new pair of earphones (aaaaah-gain ), and having tested them with several runs of Nainie I think they work just fine. So I shall resume attempts on Aria in the coming days.

Hooray! Can't wait to hear it.

Right, so I've had one of my routine bouts of that insanity which whispers 'Maybe Sindarin isn't that bad...', and have started trying to do the Duel in Sindarin. (Sauron, having been in Middle-earth the whole time, would never have learnt Quenya... ) It turns out Sindarin is that bad, and half an hour's work got me all of two lines:

Le beren athrad i 'lann nín pengarfad annin
Sí gwêath a faeath muil dhínin di nidh nín

"You are bold [= 'beren' ^_^] to cross my border without speaking to me
Here all creatures and all souls are silent slaves to my will"

dhínin is the epitome of Sindarin here: it's the barely-recognisable lentited plural form of dínen, as in Rath Dínen.

On the less my-mind-is-melting side, I've also done another paper cutout!



Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they first met of all the Eldar, Nóm, that is Wisdom.

I'm actually wondering about reverting to paper cutouts for the prologue/Act 2 prologue/epilogue images, at least for the faces. Looking at the shot of the Oath in the compiled Tracks 1-4 video, it struck me how goofy most of the faces look; they're very hard to do properly when they're so small! The only digitally-drawn face that really adds anything is Sauron in his fan-dancer shot, so why not lean into the stylised thing and just remove them? I've done other art which looks perfectly fine with blank faces.

I dunno; what are your thoughts? It'll be the first and last thing people see in the final video, so I want to get it right.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ha, no. ^_^ I spent about half an hour on Wikimedia Commons finding public-domain drawings that would work for each attribute - 'heather' was the easiest, while deciding what to use for 'memory' and 'fate' were the hardest. Huan is here an Irish Wolfhound, because... wolf.

Hey, it turned out really well. I didn't immediately realize that they corresponded to the attributes, but once I did I thought it was really cute to use Huan. And well done on Memory and Fate!

Originally Posted by Hui

Perfectly happy to have them listed; I've put them in the Libretto too. They're entirely silly, but this whole project edges that way. ^_^

Nothing wrong with silly. ^.^

Originally Posted by Hui

Right, so I've had one of my routine bouts of that insanity which whispers 'Maybe Sindarin isn't that bad...', and have started trying to do the Duel in Sindarin. (Sauron, having been in Middle-earth the whole time, would never have learnt Quenya...) It turns out Sindarin is that bad, and half an hour's work got me all of two lines:

Le beren athrad i 'lann nín pengarfad annin
Sí gwêath a faeath muil dhínin di nidh nín

"You are bold [= 'beren' ^_^] to cross my border without speaking to me
Here all creatures and all souls are silent slaves to my will"

dhínin is the epitome of Sindarin here: it's the barely-recognisable lentited plural form of dínen, as in Rath Dínen.

I think Sindarin looks prettier and more mysterious when written in English, but it's so much harder to pronounce. "Dhínin di nidh nín" has to be a Sindarin tongue twister. Can't speak to the vocab and grammar, but now having attempted to sing in both, Quenya is a lot kinder on the speech apparatus. ^.^

Originally Posted by Hui

On the less my-mind-is-melting side, I've also done another paper cutout!

Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they first met of all the Eldar, Nóm, that is Wisdom.

Nice! That's very lovely!

Originally Posted by Hui

I'm actually wondering about reverting to paper cutouts for the prologue/Act 2 prologue/epilogue images, at least for the faces. Looking at the shot of the Oath in the compiled Tracks 1-4 video, it struck me how goofy most of the faces look; they're very hard to do properly when they're so small! The only digitally-drawn face that really adds anything is Sauron in his fan-dancer shot, so why not lean into the stylised thing and just remove them? I've done other art which looks perfectly fine with blank faces.

I dunno; what are your thoughts? It'll be the first and last thing people see in the final video, so I want to get it right.

It took me a while to find the right video - I kept looking for the right link to Lament, but those are all still old-style with the backgrounds. I think that as a concept, faceless cutouts are fine, and even add an extra touch of themselves (ie highlight the difference between now/real and then/memory/history). I agree that the Oath faces look overexaggerated. But also looking at the plain cut-outs you've posted, some of the people look fine (especially those more in the distance, or when the face does not directly overlap with the body), but others are a bit creepy. I think it would be a good idea to somehow outline the head/face, or maybe put minimalistic features in there (eg only a nose, or something). Because the fully blank ones up close are just too blank. Though, what if you kept some of the shading to outline chins and such, but not the rest of the details? I dunno, I have no idea how you make the faces look real, so can't give any practical thoughts on the matter. But I think the concept itself is a great idea, just needs the right balance of detail.


...Actually, case in point. In this last one, the Man looks perfectly fine the way he is - and his face is rimmed by the beard, and his neck is a different colour. But Finrod's face looks a bit odd, too blank, and I also get the double-picture illusion where the part that sticks out can either be his neck or his nose, and I feel that outlining the chin or the nose or some other form of the face would probably solve my discomfort with that face. And looking even at the cutout for Oath, I feel more or less comfortable with most faces, especially Finrod and Feanor, but Galadriel and Curufin look weird. And it's comparing that to the completed picture which made me think that perhaps it's in the outline of the face, or lack of thereof. I don't know if that's any help, or just two paragraphs of no help.



On my front, I think we'll also need to redo Minions. My mom, who has nearly perfect hearing, told me I totally butchered the melody there, and considering the absolutely disharminious harmony they have there I can well believe her. I'm gonna ask her to help me fix it, and then I'll modify the instrumental (won't need to redo all of it, but would need to fix it to match the melody). And we'd need to re-sing it after. I'm sorry that I couldn't do it properly, but I'm glad at least someone has pointed it out before we're well past this song.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think Sindarin looks prettier and more mysterious when written in English, but it's so much harder to pronounce. "Dhínin di nidh nín" has to be a Sindarin tongue twister. Can't speak to the vocab and grammar, but now having attempted to sing in both, Quenya is a lot kinder on the speech apparatus. ^.^

It would be easier to read out had Tolkien not decided to write 'dh' when he meant 'th'. I mean, I get why, but... :-/

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't know if that's any help, or just two paragraphs of no help.

No, it helps; lets me refine how much shading is needed. I agree that chins are a must, but I tried leaving Amarie's nose just now, and it was creepy as all get-out - less 'art' and more 'MAMA CARANTHIR STOLE MY FACE AGAIN'.

So I've wound up taking this:



And turning it into this:



With hopefully the right amount of face that it's stylistic rather than horrifying. At the very least I think it's better; I can always switch back if my face-game improves!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

On my front, I think we'll also need to redo Minions. My mom, who has nearly perfect hearing, told me I totally butchered the melody there, and considering the absolutely disharminious harmony they have there I can well believe her. I'm gonna ask her to help me fix it, and then I'll modify the instrumental (won't need to redo all of it, but would need to fix it to match the melody). And we'd need to re-sing it after. I'm sorry that I couldn't do it properly, but I'm glad at least someone has pointed it out before we're well past this song.

Hey, no problem; I'm always happy to sing Sauron. ^_^ And the prologue for Minions will be affected by the de-facing (Beren and Barahir, and possibly Fan-Dance Sauron as well), so it ties together nicely.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

'MAMA CARANTHIR STOLE MY FACE AGAIN'.

This is gold. But the scary part is - with Caranthir, I could actually imagine it. Guy is too dark for his own good.

Originally Posted by Hui

With hopefully the right amount of face that it's stylistic rather than horrifying. At the very least I think it's better; I can always switch back if my face-game improves!

Yay! I put in my vote too, for what it's worth - it's absolutely better than both alternatives of that picture. I like it. I would keep it, unless you figure out a different way to shade them that you like better? But I think this already is a very worthy version.


Meanwhile, here is a sample of Aria for beta-testing. Yea or nay? I was trying to go for the angrier version of Melian here. The mild "tsk tsk, I already forgive you but I still need to scold you" version is maybe more in keeping with Melian's relationship with Thingol in the books, but on stage I am too much in love with the flashing-eyes V2 Melian. My reasoning is, of course she'll forgive Thingol, but this is her initial outburst of grief and dismay and anger, she deserves to stomp her feet a little. ^.^

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yay! I put in my vote too, for what it's worth - it's absolutely better than both alternatives of that picture. I like it. I would keep it, unless you figure out a different way to shade them that you like better? But I think this already is a very worthy version.

Phew! Okay then, I've been working through the various pictures, and I've run into Fan-Dance Sauron:



I've tried simply removing his face, but because he's the focus of the image, it looks too neutral. So I was considering something like this:



With eye-glow to match Morgoth's? And maybe keeping his scar, because it's a nice little identifier for Zong!Sauron? But I don't know if adding the detail actually makes it look worse.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Meanwhile, here is a sample of Aria for beta-testing. Yea or nay? I was trying to go for the angrier version of Melian here. The mild "tsk tsk, I already forgive you but I still need to scold you" version is maybe more in keeping with Melian's relationship with Thingol in the books, but on stage I am too much in love with the flashing-eyes V2 Melian. My reasoning is, of course she'll forgive Thingol, but this is her initial outburst of grief and dismay and anger, she deserves to stomp her feet a little. ^.^

Rage-Melian is always better. ^_^ Book!Melian was dealing with 'locking my daughter in a tree is excellent parenting'; Zong!Melian is instead faced with 'Imma marry my kid off to the guys who tried to murder my brother', which is a whole nother level of crazy Elu.

THINGOL:
Second-rate are all these Mortal Men
This one would enrage even the dead!
Not a penny to his name
You'd think he would feel shame
But see his prideful head!

MELIAN:
Oh my husband dear, do you hear yourself?
Shut your stupid mouth or I'll shut it for you.
Go sit on your throne; I'll do this myself!
Melian shall be the sole queen of Doriath!

[Pause; pause; pause]

THINGOL:
Now my darling I cannot agree--

MELIAN:
I said get OUT!

I like the sound of the clip, but I can't figure out where the singing would go. ^_^ Which is fine, because t'ain't my song anyway, but it makes it harder to give a firm opinion.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Phew! Okay then, I've been working through the various pictures, and I've run into Fan-Dance Sauron:

I've tried simply removing his face, but because he's the focus of the image, it looks too neutral. So I was considering something like this:

With eye-glow to match Morgoth's? And maybe keeping his scar, because it's a nice little identifier for Zong!Sauron? But I don't know if adding the detail actually makes it look worse.

I don't think his face looks worse at all for the detail. It's really hard for me to say, because I can't visualize any of this properly, but I think both with and without a scar he looks fine, and could probably look fine with even more detail, and equally even less detail. I mean, his fully drawn face is amazing, it's perfect in its eager malevolence, the only reason to change it would be to match it stylistically with the others. But I'm not sure how "blurred" the features need to be for it to count. I feel that a lot of options could work well here.

Originally Posted by Hui

Rage-Melian is always better. ^_^ Book!Melian was dealing with 'locking my daughter in a tree is excellent parenting'; Zong!Melian is instead faced with 'Imma marry my kid off to the guys who tried to murder my brother', which is a whole nother level of crazy Elu.

Very true. If I needed convincing, I don't anymore. ^.^

Originally Posted by Hui

THINGOL:
Now my darling I cannot agree--

MELIAN:
I said get OUT!

Ha! I am so looking forward to doing this one in the bloopers reel! This is fantastic!

Originally Posted by Hui

I like the sound of the clip, but I can't figure out where the singing would go. ^_^ Which is fine, because t'ain't my song anyway, but it makes it harder to give a firm opinion.

I was gonna explain, but then realized that a recording is much like a picture in that it's worth a thousand words. Also helpful for me, because I clearly have to work on my timing (I kept rushing too much in the first stanza and generally being off in the opening). I also didn't realize just how much volume contrast there is between the opening and the Aria proper, I didn't think it would be such a drastic transition. I might soften that just slightly (maybe make the opening louder?).

[Galadriel55]

...Seriously, I might have accidentally broke time. Or at least the time signature.

Progress (with voice, because I realize it's hard to make sense of the melody without it)

I am in need of advice on a couple points. First of all, the interlude. I'm reasonably happy with the way the first half turned out, "falling down in shadow", so to speak. But the time signature rather did get away from me, creating this weird effect when it gradually regains normal rhythm. I've thought of a way to make the transition less time-warpy, both more smooth and more abrupt, and it would shorten that section by several seconds. However, on second thought, I wonder if time-warpy is actually a good thing, in which case I could even accentuate it. What are your thoughts?

My second question, or questions, is about the coming verses. Do you see Thingol's response as reasonable sounding, or also angry? And the Thingol-echoes. I remember you're not a fan of his echoing "What madness have I done". But what about during the stanzas? Different versions do this to a different extent. I think this is the combined max of where Thingol can join in:


[Melian alone]
Hear now a truth that you forgot
Above all vows and laws and kingdoms:
To love but once, this is our lot
[Together]
To love but once, this is our lot
We Firstborn Children of Creation

[Melian]
And she will follow only him

(Thingol: And she will follow only him)

Who pierced her heart with loving arrow

(Thingol: Who pierced her heart with loving arrow)

And towers will crumble on the hills
[Together]
And they will bathe the Silmaril
In their hearts' blood and endless sorrow!


This would be giving Thingol the most opportunities to add his voice. We can use all or some or none. I think it's cool when they duet, but I don't feel strongly about it.


And last but not least, a question about the lyrics. The trouble with singing things in half-memorized state is that I tend to fill in the blanks in memory with whatever seems right. Most of these instances I've already corrected for myself, but there is one that may be a legitimate possibility. "Your foolish words have lost the battle" - vs "your battle". Is there a preference, based on what exactly Melian is talking about?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am in need of advice on a couple points. First of all, the interlude. I'm reasonably happy with the way the first half turned out, "falling down in shadow", so to speak. But the time signature rather did get away from me, creating this weird effect when it gradually regains normal rhythm. I've thought of a way to make the transition less time-warpy, both more smooth and more abrupt, and it would shorten that section by several seconds. However, on second thought, I wonder if time-warpy is actually a good thing, in which case I could even accentuate it. What are your thoughts?

I, uh... I don't know. I think it sounds perfectly good? My music sense isn't strong enough to sense any time-warpiness, so it's definitely not over the top.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

My second question, or questions, is about the coming verses. Do you see Thingol's response as reasonable sounding, or also angry? And the Thingol-echoes. I remember you're not a fan of his echoing "What madness have I done". But what about during the stanzas? Different versions do this to a different extent. I think this is the combined max of where Thingol can join in:

[...]

This would be giving Thingol the most opportunities to add his voice. We can use all or some or none. I think it's cool when they duet, but I don't feel strongly about it.

The Redemption of Thingol Greycloak

My first read was definitely that Thingol is blithely unaware that he's done anything dumb until Hate, but looking at his verse here... I think he might be realising right between the two 'A father's love' lines. So this:

My care for my beloved child
Is stronger than for war or slaughter.
A father's love is strong and proud

Is pure self-justification, but this:

A father's love is strong and proud
But fathers do not choose their daughters

Is him realising that he done goofed. I'll try and reflect that in the singing, though stars only know how.

In which case, I think your 'combined max' works wonderfully: Thingol gets the lines recognising that Luthien is actually in love, then has a beat to think on it, and acknowledges that they're not gonna stop until they have that Silmaril.

The 'madness' echo... I still don't think I like it. I can't make it sound good in my head, but also, in this song he's just recognising that Luthien is out of his hands; Hate is where he understands that he's wrought Doom.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

And last but not least, a question about the lyrics. The trouble with singing things in half-memorized state is that I tend to fill in the blanks in memory with whatever seems right. Most of these instances I've already corrected for myself, but there is one that may be a legitimate possibility. "Your foolish words have lost the battle" - vs "your battle". Is there a preference, based on what exactly Melian is talking about?

UGGGGH I hate that line. -_- That's probably my favourite verse, lyrically, but the final line is purely there for the rhyme and meaning, not for the flow of it. So... ideas?

Your words of wrath will bring us all low
And love and faith are proven hollow
And from the deeps a bitter fire-glow
The bitter fate that from your words grows

I don't knoooooow.

Brief update from my end: I'm only one image away from finishing the Prologue, after which I can get a shiny new version of the video up. Not sure when I'll draw it, though.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I, uh... I don't know. I think it sounds perfectly good? My music sense isn't strong enough to sense any time-warpiness, so it's definitely not over the top.

Good to know, thanks! I did try to smooth it out, so at least that worked. Just need to figure out now if it's better to undo the smoothing.

Originally Posted by Hui

In which case, I think your 'combined max' works wonderfully: Thingol gets the lines recognising that Luthien is actually in love, then has a beat to think on it, and acknowledges that they're not gonna stop until they have that Silmaril.

The 'madness' echo... I still don't think I like it. I can't make it sound good in my head, but also, in this song he's just recognising that Luthien is out of his hands; Hate is where he understands that he's wrought Doom.

Agreed. I also think that the madness-echo only works with the V1 structure ("how blind" coming in after Time's Weave, and Madness happening right after Blood and Sorrow). Since we've taken after the V2 structure, with both Blind and Madness together at the end, Thingol could feasibly echo "how blind I have become", but Madness would sound odd musically. Anyways, I think his stanza-echoes are better anyways, so let's just stick to those. I'll write the score accordingly. It might be a little while though, but likely before the end of next week.

Originally Posted by Hui

UGGGGH I hate that line. -_- That's probably my favourite verse, lyrically, but the final line is purely there for the rhyme and meaning, not for the flow of it. So... ideas?

Your words of wrath will bring us all low
And love and faith are proven hollow
And from the deeps a bitter fire-glow
The bitter fate that from your words grows

I don't knoooooow.

...That was actually surprising for me to hear. I didn't think there was anything wrong with the line, I thought is was perfectly fine aesthetically, and a precise and beautifully phrased translation. My quibble is more with the original lyrics, which repeatedly insist on linking Thigol's death and personal downfall with the Fall of Doriath, even though they are distinct events (e.g. "fell doom has fallen on the king under the hand of his own kinsfolk"). So I keep wavering about this line too ("you lost YOUR battle" in Russian), whether to keep up the link between Thingol and Doriath, or if making it "THE battle" leaves it more true to The Sil as it remains very vague.

So I actually quite like that line, except for being undecided between one source material and another. But if you feel strongly that it should be changed, I think it's best to keep the meaning there as much as possible. I don't see any problems with the flow, but if you're looking for a more exact rhyme, maybe something with "blow"? "Your foolish words have dealt your death-blow"? I feel like nothing I can come up with is actually better that what's already there.

Originally Posted by Hui

Brief update from my end: I'm only one image away from finishing the Prologue, after which I can get a shiny new version of the video up. Not sure when I'll draw it, though.

Yay! Again, no rush whatsoever. It will be exciting stuff whenever it comes.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Since we've taken after the V2 structure, with both Blind and Madness together at the end...

How to tell we've been doing this a long time... what was the reason we did that, again?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

...That was actually surprising for me to hear. I didn't think there was anything wrong with the line, I thought is was perfectly fine aesthetically, and a precise and beautifully phrased translation. My quibble is more with the original lyrics, which repeatedly insist on linking Thigol's death and personal downfall with the Fall of Doriath, even though they are distinct events (e.g. "fell doom has fallen on the king under the hand of his own kinsfolk"). So I keep wavering about this line too ("you lost YOUR battle" in Russian), whether to keep up the link between Thingol and Doriath, or if making it "THE battle" leaves it more true to The Sil as it remains very vague.

So I actually quite like that line, except for being undecided between one source material and another. But if you feel strongly that it should be changed, I think it's best to keep the meaning there as much as possible. I don't see any problems with the flow, but if you're looking for a more exact rhyme, maybe something with "blow"? "Your foolish words have dealt your death-blow"? I feel like nothing I can come up with is actually better that what's already there.

Ehhhh. I mean, it's a perfectly fine line, but I don't think it fits the stanza at all. That's a wonderfully poetic stanza, very abstract, and then she ends with 'you've been a bit silly'. Plus, "lost the battle" is too close to "won the battle but lost the war" - it not only sounds wrong, but also implies that he'll win in the end.

... which, I mean, I guess the quest of the Silmaril did ultimately lead to the fall of Angband, but Thingol wasn't around to appreciate it.

I like 'death-blow'; currently looking at:

And [in/from] your [[reckless/bitter] words/words of wrath] the death-blow

Could be 'my' or 'your' deathblow, but Melian doesn't die, and 'hey hubby, your time's up' seems a bit blunt!

Also, and this does come back to your question. I think I like it vague: that way, Melian's vision covers all the bases. Finrod's death, Thingol's death, the fall of Doriath - but also the War of Wrath. The whole thing would actually work as a foresight of Ancalagon's death - his ruined wings as black banners draped over the wreck of Thangorodrim, and the Silmaril freed by Thingol's pride bringing him down.

EDIT: The final image of the prologue, right before the title card:



Finrod grieves after learning of Barahir's death. A scene which doesn't actually appear in the Silm or the Lay, though it must have happened, and so inspired here directly by the Leithian Script:

Finrod:
Where did they go, master of my Household? How shall we account for them?
Two years of grim hornlocked contest, driven back hoof by hoof until the slip
and rout of Minas Tirith, leaving the winner to bellow and tear across the North
without bar; five years after of grateful respite, when our Enemy seemed content
to hold what he'd taken without further onslaught, barring us in turn, testing us
in small ways that did not cost us much, and we recovered from the Burning or
so it seemed, so far as that could be. And then after it was done we learned of
the trials of the far marches, and their silent fall, and we knew why we had had
so much of peace -- "so much" I say, when it was in truth as an hour, was it not?

[The Steward nods]

An hour that slipped by unnoticed, and they were gone from this world. And I
mourned them, as did you all, and reproached myself, and knew it vain, and set
my mind to the safeguarding of the West, and the keeping of this City, and the
inevitable clash that is to come -- and thought to honor them in this way. And
then the strange news came, in the very days that war kindled anew against my
kinsman, and I much distracted, of one the Singers said the woods themselves sang
of, and a name not yet dead under the stars, and I rejoiced with you, and before
I did anything word came hard upon the first that he was gone, overwhelmed by an
army of wolves and dark sorcery. And again I mourned, and thought the song of
Beor was done --

[as he speaks he rings the lowest string of the harp, twelve times, and then once more]

until the hour that he came before me, famished, in rags, far past his strength
-- asking only because what had been demanded of him was beyond any mortal measure
-- No sword, no spear or bolt I've ever taken has hurt a fraction as much -- not
the Cold, not the sight of the fires in the East -- only that other Fire, and the
fall of knowledge that my brothers were gone: for I knew then that Morgoth's lies
were true, that we should spend their brief lives in lieu of our own, and think no
more of it than of a faithful hound slain by wolf or boar --

If my plans don't change, this will also be the first shot of the Epilogue - but with the throne empty.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

How to tell we've been doing this a long time... what was the reason we did that, again?

I don't recall there was any specific reason, only that we were cherry-picking when to follow V1 or V2 where they differed, and I blame this one on Blonde Melian's flashing eyes.

Originally Posted by Hui

Ehhhh. I mean, it's a perfectly fine line, but I don't think it fits the stanza at all. That's a wonderfully poetic stanza, very abstract, and then she ends with 'you've been a bit silly'. Plus, "lost the battle" is too close to "won the battle but lost the war" - it not only sounds wrong, but also implies that he'll win in the end.

Isn't this kinda what Melian means though - you'll lose the war? Great, you got rid of Beren, but actually you'll lose the war/battle in so many places (Luthien, entangling with the Silmaril, Thingol's own death and the Fall of Doriath, possibly other things too). Is there any way to make him lose the war? I guess death-blow sort of speaks to that, but weirdly so; it mainly focuses on Thingol's own fate, and as you say, this is a grander stanza encompassing the fate of Beleriand.

Of the options so far, I think I prefer reckless over bitter (bitter he will be when he realizes fell doom has fallen on the king; "fetch me a Silmaril" or "please marry my daughter" isn't really bitter). And I agree it should be THE death-blow, neither yours nor mine.

And in your reckless words the death-blow
You lost the war, you wrought the death-blow
Your reckless words have lost the [??? monosyllable adjective perhaps] war
And your defeat lies in in your [rash/own] words


Alternatively, if the world falls down in RUIN, rather than shadow, then you can make the reckless words be his UNDOING. Though initially I was thinking of ruin/defeat/etc as potential replacers for losing the war. I guess along similar lines, if the world falls down in TURMOIL, Thingol could be bringing about a DOWNFALL.

Originally Posted by Hui

Finrod grieves after learning of Barahir's death. A scene which doesn't actually appear in the Silm or the Lay, though it must have happened, and so inspired here directly by the Leithian Script

Hey, nice! And nice play. I'm reading through it, it has some fascinating moments.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Of the options so far, I think I prefer reckless over bitter (bitter he will be when he realizes fell doom has fallen on the king; "fetch me a Silmaril" or "please marry my daughter" isn't really bitter). And I agree it should be THE death-blow, neither yours nor mine.

How about 'our', meaning either Thingol and Melian, or Doriath, or all Beleriand (through the Nirnaeth)?

I think dropping 'foolish' has made a lot of difference in my mind, to the point where I'm not looking solely at these two options:

Your reckless words have dealt our death-blow!

or, reverting:

Your reckless words have lost the battle!

Sorry, I know I'm running in circles...!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Hey, nice! And nice play. I'm reading through it, it has some fascinating moments.

The Leithian Script is a large part of why I love Finrod so much. It's been very, very hard to shake off its visuals, too - that's actually why I based the Zong portraits directly on the actors, because otherwise I'd wind up copying the Script's images! (The Corollaire is already a direct reference...) It does suffer from massive scope-creep, though: Acts I and II are stageable, Act III would at least be filmable, but Act IV is a monster bringing in literally every character she could think of. Also: unfinished, which is deeply frustrating.

What is not unfinished - any more - is the Finrod-Zong Prologue! I've finally put all the slides together, and while I'll probably tweak some of the transitions at some point, I'm happy with this as the 'dress rehearsal'.

01 - Galadriel's Lament

Which at last brings all the current songs to their 'final state', except for the old logo all over the place. I'm very pleased to have that sorted.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Today I have discovered that the 2014 Russian Zong is great background music for copy-editing German technical manuals. Really makes the time fly by!

Also, I am now the proud owner of the direct inspiration for the portrait+heraldry style of the animations:



This is Jenny Dolfen / Gold Seven's Finarfin badge. She has matching ones for Fingolfin and Feanor, but, like... who cares about them? I did, however, buy the Luthien & Beren paired set; they're currently hanging out together on my coat.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Sorry for the silence again. I'm afraid I have been running AWOL again. I have had less free time this week than I expected, and my earphones died again. So I got myself headphones this time around, but I hate the sound in them (the trumpet sounds reedier than the clarinet, the basses are overpowering...) and they make my ears hurt when I wear them too long. So that's the update on my quest for finding good listening equipment. However, Elanor has found some great recording equipment, we'll see if it makes any difference in sound quality.

I am on the way to getting Minions sorted. I got a concilium together, consisting of two family members who can play music by the ear and a music teacher. The problem is "at this hour late"; nobody could agree how that music goes, because the V1 minions seem to not so much sing in tune as to enunciate musically and each iteration sounds different. However, the unanimous agreement was that this phrase has to be absolutely disharmonious and break every rule of music you can think of. Also, the suggestion was to vary it slightly between the Minions and Sauron, so it's not an exact echo. I fiddled around with the score, and am experimenting with the singing a bit to see how doable it is.

Haven't progressed any on Aria, that was completely stalled while my earphones were out.

In other news, passing on lots of compliments about all the recent stuff we did, and the live action videos. My mom said that until she learned you translated Lament into Elvish, she thought I was as Tolkiennutted as it got. I told her she just hasn't met the Tolkien community proper. Seriously though, everyone loved the style of that video, and apparently our dueting skills have improved with time.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think dropping 'foolish' has made a lot of difference in my mind, to the point where I'm not looking solely at these two options:

Your reckless words have dealt our death-blow!

or, reverting:

Your reckless words have lost the battle!

Sorry, I know I'm running in circles...!

I vote for "Your reckless words have lost the battle", but if you feel strongly about the other one I could live with it. As you know, I just like the idea of Melian telling Thingol that he lost, and I don't think the death-blow carries that sense very well.

Originally Posted by Hui

What is not unfinished - any more - is the Finrod-Zong Prologue! I've finally put all the slides together, and while I'll probably tweak some of the transitions at some point, I'm happy with this as the 'dress rehearsal'.

01 - Galadriel's Lament

Wonderful! I will update the links momentarily. Love the picture sequences, they tell the story really well.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Also, I am now the proud owner of the direct inspiration for the portrait+heraldry style of the animations:

This is Jenny Dolfen / Gold Seven's Finarfin badge. She has matching ones for Fingolfin and Feanor, but, like... who cares about them? I did, however, buy the Luthien & Beren paired set; they're currently hanging out together on my coat.

Didn't you also get another character earlier - Finrod himself maybe? You're becoming quite the collector.

[Galadriel55]

I finally got down to recording the entirety of Minions today, which was a bit of an adventure. Turns out I did not connect the new recording equipment properly, so the whole time the recording was via my computer microphone (which explains why it's so quiet). I was not able to make the new mic work, though I tried every single wire in the package with every setting in Audacity, work out for yourself however many combinations that makes. I don't know what I did wrong, given that Elanor and I tested the mic before and it worked fine. In the end, I figured that maybe the low quality actually makes the minions sound more Gollum, which is a good thing.

Minions - just the music. The difference from previous is the "at this hour late" phrase, which only goes down now and can be half-sung half-said whichever way you want. Interestingly, listening with earphones the higher pitches sound very prominent, but in headphones I can barely hear them over the bass. I was gonna try to even it out, then gave up on it. It's as much volume balancing as I want to do until I settle into some semblance of permanent and good audio equipment.

Minions - the whole thing sung. I added Sauron for kicks, and I guess I was channeling a languid!Sauron who just didn't wanna bother following the melody up to the higher notes.

Minions - itsy bitsy voices alone. Let me know how it sounds, I can rerecord on phone the old-fashioned way if it's too smudged, or if the Gollum does not actually come across (it's very Gollum in the headphones and not at all without them, I have no idea with the tech failing me left and right). Also, just noticed now without the music how much it's echoing - that must be the mic doing its echo function, but then why wasn't it recording properly? Dunno. . Basically, very low threshold to re-record, I've almost convinced myself I should.

I was playing around with making "Oh my lord!" go up an octave via Audacity's special effects, and "Upon our border!" go down one. It sounds rather silly, and is fun to manipulate. I am undecided whether it's a good idea for the final thing though, and it would also depend on the order in which the minions fly back into the picture in the video.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am on the way to getting Minions sorted. I got a concilium together, consisting of two family members who can play music by the ear and a music teacher.

It is acutely hilarious that you're convening councils to discuss how to play the least melodic song in the entire musical. ^_^

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Haven't progressed any on Aria, that was completely stalled while my earphones were out.

Not to worry, I've done absolutely nothing, so...

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In other news, passing on lots of compliments about all the recent stuff we did, and the live action videos. My mom said that until she learned you translated Lament into Elvish, she thought I was as Tolkiennutted as it got. I told her she just hasn't met the Tolkien community proper. Seriously though, everyone loved the style of that video, and apparently our dueting skills have improved with time.

You can thank them from me. I have always been a wee bit too involved with Middle-earth, so it's always nice to have that recognised. ^_~

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I vote for "Your reckless words have lost the battle", but if you feel strongly about the other one I could live with it. As you know, I just like the idea of Melian telling Thingol that he lost, and I don't think the death-blow carries that sense very well.

I am convinced, at least until my next moment of crisis.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Wonderful! I will update the links momentarily. Love the picture sequences, they tell the story really well.

Thanks! Tangential question: when you eventually do Galadriel's epilogue, do you expect it to have a long intro (like the Prologue and Minions do)? Picture planning.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Didn't you also get another character earlier - Finrod himself maybe? You're becoming quite the collector.

I did! I also got Maglor this time round; he's sitting with his harp next to a 'Books are magic' pin. It's all very Tolkieny.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I finally got down to recording the entirety of Minions today, which was a bit of an adventure. Turns out I did not connect the new recording equipment properly, so the whole time the recording was via my computer microphone (which explains why it's so quiet). I was not able to make the new mic work, though I tried every single wire in the package with every setting in Audacity, work out for yourself however many combinations that makes. I don't know what I did wrong, given that Elanor and I tested the mic before and it worked fine. In the end, I figured that maybe the low quality actually makes the minions sound more Gollum, which is a good thing.

Ooh, ouch. The only problems I've had with Audacity have been that it doesn't pick up on the microphone if I plug it in after starting the program, and that sometimes the dropdown menu selects the wrong mic. Other than that, I got nothing.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Minions - itsy bitsy voices alone. Let me know how it sounds, I can rerecord on phone the old-fashioned way if it's too smudged, or if the Gollum does not actually come across (it's very Gollum in the headphones and not at all without them, I have no idea with the tech failing me left and right). Also, just noticed now without the music how much it's echoing - that must be the mic doing its echo function, but then why wasn't it recording properly? Dunno. . Basically, very low threshold to re-record, I've almost convinced myself I should.

Listening to the combined version, I think it sounds fine (on headphones). But feel free to rerecord if you want, we all know about me and music.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I was playing around with making "Oh my lord!" go up an octave via Audacity's special effects, and "Upon our border!" go down one. It sounds rather silly, and is fun to manipulate. I am undecided whether it's a good idea for the final thing though, and it would also depend on the order in which the minions fly back into the picture in the video.

Hmm... I didn't change them last time, but I can do so. I know the one at the back is kind of ragged at the bottom, so I don't like him there by himself, but apart from that I can shuffle them at will.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It is acutely hilarious that you're convening councils to discuss how to play the least melodic song in the entire musical. ^_^

I mean, I'm pretty sure I got certain parts of Wind and Renunciation wrong, but it's less noticeable because they are melodic.

Originally Posted by Hui

Thanks! Tangential question: when you eventually do Galadriel's epilogue, do you expect it to have a long intro (like the Prologue and Minions do)? Picture planning.

I haven't really thought about it. It would need an intro, to give a little space after the climax of Luthien's victory. But it can be short, like Meeting, or I could make it longer. Do you have a preference? No plans means I can easily accommodate nearly any time span.

Originally Posted by Hui

Ooh, ouch. The only problems I've had with Audacity have been that it doesn't pick up on the microphone if I plug it in after starting the program, and that sometimes the dropdown menu selects the wrong mic. Other than that, I got nothing.

*facepalm* I can't believe I didn't think to do the turn if off and back on thing. That must be it.

Thing is, I actually like the music aspect of that recording, I thought I did fairly well. The only question is in the recording quality. If it doesn't sound like an old radio on your end, and sounds sufficiently un-Elvish, I think I'll keep it, at least until the day I redo everything.

Originally Posted by Hui

Hmm... I didn't change them last time, but I can do so. I know the one at the back is kind of ragged at the bottom, so I don't like him there by himself, but apart from that I can shuffle them at will.

I kinda like the idea of Gorgol being the Spooked Minion. I think let's just stick with it.

I have started on She Will Follow Only Him in Aria. I'll post a progress once I get to the end of the stanzas. And then two choruses after, which will be the final push.

[Galadriel55]

I have finally reached the last milestone in Aria before the end, up to "blood and sorrow", and here is the promised progress report. Of note, I slightly shortened the musical intermission in the middle from previous. For the final stanza, Melian sings in the bars without melody notes played, while Thingol's melody is outlined (it's the same as the other repetitions except for the word "arrow").

[Galadriel55]

I am chipping away at the remnant of Aria very slowly. It wasn't comjng together verh well, but it's gonna happen eventually.

In the meantime, another lyrics question that occurred to me:

But fathers do not choose their daughters
Vs
And fathers do not choose their daughters

It's another very minor semantic quibble, but I wonder if the latter carries Thingol's theme more smoothly. Hey Melian, you're being unfair, I disagree woth Luthien, and since I can't change her I change what I can in her best interest, even at the cost of myself and Doriath.

Coming back to the troublesome line from before, there's also Mh King, your words have lost the battle!, which avoids all descriptions of his words if you're not a fan of them. That also made me think of My husband dear, you've lost the battle!, but the level of scorn there belongs in Melian shall be the sole queen of Doriath. I am happy with the line as is, but if it's still making you itch I can help look for alternatives.


On a totally different note, I was gonna make use of the recent activity to signature-advertise the Zong. I'm probably gonna put up a quote which would be representative of the work, but not spoil any dramatic moment. Current candidates are one of the My Griefs from Ballad to Amarie (probably the cannot return one), and the arrow set in flight stanza from Truth. Hmm, maybe "You came from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!". What would you pick as the one quote to rule them all?

[Huinesoron]

I know I've been really quiet of late; I thought I was just generally low on energy, but it turns out I was putting it all into a daft little Edwardian murder mystery story. Now the draft is done, I suddenly feel able to reply here. [Facepalm] I am not very self-aware.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I haven't really thought about it. It would need an intro, to give a little space after the climax of Luthien's victory. But it can be short, like Meeting, or I could make it longer. Do you have a preference? No plans means I can easily accommodate nearly any time span.

The reason I was asking is that I want the first 'after' image to be Finrod's empty throne, tying in with the opening lines ("I don't see these stone-carven walls/For I know that you are not there"). That means, if there's a long intro, I would need to draw something for it, and I figured it would be a good place to tell the rest of the Lay of Leithian. But I didn't know whether I needed to plan for that.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Thing is, I actually like the music aspect of that recording, I thought I did fairly well. The only question is in the recording quality. If it doesn't sound like an old radio on your end, and sounds sufficiently un-Elvish, I think I'll keep it, at least until the day I redo everything.

I listened to this way back, and the quality was fine.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I have finally reached the last milestone in Aria before the end, up to "blood and sorrow", and here is the promised progress report. Of note, I slightly shortened the musical intermission in the middle from previous. For the final stanza, Melian sings in the bars without melody notes played, while Thingol's melody is outlined (it's the same as the other repetitions except for the word "arrow").

I think this is beautiful music but I can't make head or tail of it on a casual listen. ^_^ A shorter intermission sounds good - I was surprised at how long it was in the previous version - but yeah, it all sounds lovely. Can't wait to hear it sung!

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am chipping away at the remnant of Aria very slowly. It wasn't comjng together verh well, but it's gonna happen eventually.

And luckily there is nothing happening on the Downs to distract you from it! ^_~

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

In the meantime, another lyrics question that occurred to me:

But fathers do not choose their daughters
Vs
And fathers do not choose their daughters

It's another very minor semantic quibble, but I wonder if the latter carries Thingol's theme more smoothly. Hey Melian, you're being unfair, I disagree woth Luthien, and since I can't change her I change what I can in her best interest, even at the cost of myself and Doriath.

I've always seen this line as tinged with regret. He's not justifying himself to Melian - he's saying a combination of 'I don't want her to be this way' and 'I wish I'd realised sooner how different [or alike!] we are'. For that, 'but' works better than 'and'.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Coming back to the troublesome line from before, there's also Mh King, your words have lost the battle!, which avoids all descriptions of his words if you're not a fan of them. That also made me think of My husband dear, you've lost the battle!, but the level of scorn there belongs in Melian shall be the sole queen of Doriath. I am happy with the line as is, but if it's still making you itch I can help look for alternatives.

I think I'm happy with 'reckless' for now; it's grown on me. ^_~ I'll keep these in mind for if I start getting annoyed with it again.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

On a totally different note, I was gonna make use of the recent activity to signature-advertise the Zong. I'm probably gonna put up a quote which would be representative of the work, but not spoil any dramatic moment. Current candidates are one of the My Griefs from Ballad to Amarie (probably the cannot return one), and the arrow set in flight stanza from Truth. Hmm, maybe "You came from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!". What would you pick as the one quote to rule them all?

Okay, this is a lovely idea and I shall steal it shamelessly. Probably my favourite line is:

And even then in shadowed hall
I'll face the mightiest of all
And I will take what is and always has been mine!
-Luthien Tinuviel, Finrod: The Rock Opera

But it might be a bit too dramatic-moment-y.

I'm tempted by:

The Song's unfinished / Give me no more prophesying

... but when Werewolf's in the offing having a 'prophesy' signature might be taken the wrong way.

For a one-line quote, I might actually go for:

Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again?

... or, y'know:

An ancient oath is leading our House down this road
An ancient oath has bound us by blood in the night

I feel like "Truth" in particular relies too much on the whole thing; you can't one-or-two line it and keep the impact.

EDIT: And literally thirty seconds later...

In the hour when slumber calls / And the cloak of Night dulls the air
I don’t see these stone-carven walls / For I know that you are not there.
~Finrod: The Rock Opera

(Using Galadriel's version because 'not' requires less explanation than 'still'.)

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I know I've been really quiet of late; I thought I was just generally low on energy, but it turns out I was putting it all into a daft little Edwardian murder mystery story. Now the draft is done, I suddenly feel able to reply here. [Facepalm] I am not very self-aware.

Hey! Go Sherlock Holmes and (early-set) Agatha Christie!

Originally Posted by Hui

The reason I was asking is that I want the first 'after' image to be Finrod's empty throne, tying in with the opening lines ("I don't see these stone-carven walls/For I know that you are not there"). That means, if there's a long intro, I would need to draw something for it, and I figured it would be a good place to tell the rest of the Lay of Leithian. But I didn't know whether I needed to plan for that.

If you think we should include the rest of the Lay, then I can easily make it a long one. But equally, if you don't particularly want to do it, I can make it brief. I'm happy to follow whatever picture plan you will pick for when we get there. In fact, I will try to actively NOT plan that part until we get there, so that I would still go down any path with equal ease.

Originally Posted by Hui

And luckily there is nothing happening on the Downs to distract you from it! ^_~

I know! I was hoping to finish it before WW starts, under the premise of one guilty pleasure at a time. I made a desperate bid for it today during lunch break, and timing-wise I have all of it until the end, but both the music and the singing will need to be redone. Didn't have time to do Thingol's part, sorry, but hopefully it makes sense; next time I go to record I'll make sure to add his part to see how it sounds when they duet.

In terms of the music, I was trying too hard to put madness into Madness, and now I don't like it. Its too much, I'm gonna take a bunch of that out probably. The interlude is shorter, but only by like 1 bar. If you think it's too long, I could probably cut a few more bars off.

Originally Posted by Hui

I've always seen this line as tinged with regret. He's not justifying himself to Melian - he's saying a combination of 'I don't want her to be this way' and 'I wish I'd realised sooner how different [or alike!] we are'. For that, 'but' works better than 'and'.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Hui

And even then in shadowed hall
I'll face the mightiest of all
And I will take what is and always has been mine!
-Luthien Tinuviel, Finrod: The Rock Opera

---

Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again?

---

In the hour when slumber calls / And the cloak of Night dulls the air
I don’t see these stone-carven walls / For I know that you are not there.
~Finrod: The Rock Opera

These three are probably my favourite. As a true one-liner, that line from Amarie is actually brilliant. I was initially only considering Finrod-related quotes, but actually that one of Luthien's is also quite nice. Aaahhh! Too much of a good thing? :-D

[Galadriel55]

Insomnia + Google Translate = I translated the Rebel Crossover into a bad semblance of French.


FEANOR:

Le temps est arrivé, vous devez décider:
Rester en esclavage dans cette cage, ou peut-être oser
Partir avec le roi au voyage sur la Mer,
Pour combattre à mort, retrouver les trois belles pierres?

Mes couleurs et mon foi
Sont à vous – suivez-moi!

The time has come for you to decide
To stay in bondage in this cage, or maybe to dare
To leave with the king on a journey on the Sea
To fight until death, retrieve the three beautiful stones?

My colours and my faith
Are yours – follow me!

Rouge!
Le sang déjà versé!
Noir!
Un cœur détruit par haine!
Rouge!
La puissance rassemblée!
Noir!
C’est l’ombre de destin!

Red! The blood already spilled!
Black! A heart destroyed by hate!
Red! The mustered power!
Black! It’s the shadow of fate!

FINARFIN:

Valar nous aideront si nous resterons ici;
Ils vont dissiper la nuit et vont rétablir la Lumière.
Morgoth gagnera si nous suivrons l’Ennemi
Il apporterait fatalité à cette terre.

C’est notre domicile,
Nous devons retourner!

Valar will help us if we stay here;
They will dispel the night and will restore the Light.
Morgoth will win if we follow the Enemy
He would bring fatality to this land.

This is our home,
We must turn back!

Rouge!
Le peuple est en colère!
Noir!
La chaîne sur nos ailes!
Rouge!
L’ère de sang et malheur!
Noir!
La nuit éternelle!

Red! The people is angry!
Noir! The chain over our wings!
Red! The age of blood and misfortune!
Black! The eternal night!

FINGOLFIN:

Finarfin, tu n’es plus un enfant,
Tu es trop vieux pour si rêver,
La destinée doit arriver.
Je l’ai juré, et maintenant
Je marche avec mon frère brûlant –
Marchons, Eldar, vers Porte de Fer!

Finarfin, you’re no longer a child,
You are too old to dream so,
The fate must come.
I swore this, and now
I march with my fiery brother –
Let Eldar march to Gate of Iron!

Rouge!
Le sang déjà versé!
Noir!
Un cœur détruit par haine!
Rouge!
La puissance rassemblée!
Noir!
C’est l’ombre de destin!

Red! The blood already spilled!
Black! A heart destroyed by hate!
Red! The mustered power!
Black! It’s the shadow of fate!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

If you think we should include the rest of the Lay, then I can easily make it a long one. But equally, if you don't particularly want to do it, I can make it brief. I'm happy to follow whatever picture plan you will pick for when we get there. In fact, I will try to actively NOT plan that part until we get there, so that I would still go down any path with equal ease.

'Actively not planning' might be the best option; ideally we'd want to see how the rest of the musical flows as a single video to figure out how the last song should be paced.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I know! I was hoping to finish it before WW starts, under the premise of one guilty pleasure at a time. I made a desperate bid for it today during lunch break, and timing-wise I have all of it until the end, but both the music and the singing will need to be redone. Didn't have time to do Thingol's part, sorry, but hopefully it makes sense; next time I go to record I'll make sure to add his part to see how it sounds when they duet.

I've just listened to this and it's such fun. I can't tell whether you're planning an outro, but the slam-cut on the last line is just fantastic as-is (and would be a perfect straight-to-black). I'll try and record Thingol to go with it and get at least a first-pass of the animation done, but not sure when.
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Insomnia + Google Translate = I translated the Rebel Crossover into a bad semblance of French.

So I can't comment on the French except to note that I can make sense of most of it, but I can say that it's very singable. There's a couple of lines that catch me - I think a lot of them want me to pronounce a final -e as a separate syllable - but by and large it flows beautifully. Fingolfin's verse in particular is just perfectly biting (and I always appreciate a good maintenant).

hS