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Old 08-08-2006, 07:27 AM   #1
Mansun
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Sauron's Armies

Any idea how big Sauron's armies were in size? The movies suggest about 30,000 took to the Pelennor Fields, while another 10,000 remaining in Mordor. The book however suggests that about ten times the number which Gandalf & his 10,000 soldiers sent to the gates of Mordor was the remaining Mordor army. It also seems odd to me that Saruman was able to build an army of 10,000 ferocious Uruk-Hai, while Sauron's orcs were just mere goblins.

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Old 08-08-2006, 08:32 AM   #2
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As far as I know, there were around 250,000 at the Pelennor fields, and there was a countless number securing Mordor. Dont pay attention to the numbers that the movies give you, although they are right in one way: there were around "10,000 strong" assaulting Helm's Deep.
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Old 08-08-2006, 08:43 AM   #3
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As far as I know, there were around 250,000 at the Pelennor fields, and there was a countless number securing Mordor. Dont pay attention to the numbers that the movies give you, although they are right in one way: there were around "10,000 strong" assaulting Helm's Deep.
250,000??! The size of that army seems impossible to mass together. Where did you find that out? Even the great army of Rome (which lost to Hannibal of Carthage) had just 80,000 strong soldiers.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:29 AM   #4
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The Atlas of Middle-earth says that 11250 fought against at least 45000 orcs, Haradrim etc. on the fields of the Pelennor.

I don't think we are ever told how many orcs still were left in Mordor, because simply nobody could know for sure.

At the Morannon about 6000 fought against an unknown, but vast number of enemies.
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Old 08-08-2006, 10:33 AM   #5
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As far as the Battle of Pelennor Fields, I have heard that there were 100,000, 200,000, 250,000, 300,000, and 600,000 Sauronic forces. All of those numbers came from people who worked on the film, during various behind-the-scenes features and interviews.

So I don't have a clue what the real number is as far as that goes. Ten thousand is about right for Helm's Deep, though. I don't know how many good guys are at the Battle of the Morannon, but it sure doesn't seem to be as many as six thousand.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mansun
Any idea how big Sauron's armies were in size? The movies suggest about 30,000 took to the Pellenor Fields, while another 10,000 remaining in Mordor. The book however suggests that about ten times the number which Gandalf & his 10,000 soldiers sent to the gates of Mordor was the remaining Mordor army. It also seems odd to me that Saruman was able to build an army of 10,000 ferocious Uruk-Hai, while Sauron's orcs were just mere goblins.
Where did you observe the "30,000" number? When PJ talks about the army that attacks Minas Tirith, he says something like there are at least 200,000 orcs (of the various tribes) there. You can verify his number by counting individuals in one of their formations, then multipying by the number of those formations.

It's definitely more than 30,000. Why, any backwoods maia could show as many....
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by alatar
Where did you observe the "30,000" number? When PJ talks about the army that attacks Minas Tirith, he says something like there are at least 200,000 orcs (of the various tribes) there. You can verify his number by counting individuals in one of their formations, then multipying by the number of those formations.

It's definitely more than 30,000. Why, any backwoods maia could show as many....
I compared the estimated 30,000 orcs (& only orcs) at the Pelennor fields as seen in the film to that of the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army at Helm's Deep. It does seem to me that about 3 times the numer for the former to the latter is about right. Certainly not 200,000, if you use that logic.

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Old 08-08-2006, 11:26 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Mansun
I compared the estimated 30,000 orcs (& only orcs) at the Pelenor fields as seen in the film to that of the 10,000 Uruk-Hai army at Helm's Deep. It does see to me that about 3 times the numer for the former to the latter is about right. Certainly not 200,000, if you use that logic.
Not exactly sure what you mean.

I'm not sure of the 10,000 at Helm's Deep. Having watched the Battle of Helm's Deep for the SbS, it seems that no matter the number of Uruks slain, which seemingly a warrior could not help but add to the count (and don't get me started about the lack of Elvish kills!), at the end, as the Uruks make for the forest, there still seems to be way too many.

Not that I'm obsessed, but just want, like in other matters, that there be some consistency and rationality to the movie - and don't say that, well, we have wizards and balrogs, so why do we need consistency/rationality.
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Old 08-08-2006, 11:33 AM   #9
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I mean that compared to the 10,000 Uruks at Helm's Deep, I am not at all convinced that 200,000 orcs were present at the Pelennor fields. When you compare the two armies, Sauron's army was bigger, but only by about 3 times, but certainly not 20 times as big. Though that is only what I perceived in the film, not the book.

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Old 08-08-2006, 11:50 AM   #10
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I mean that compared to the 10,000 Uruks at Helm's Deep, I am not at all convinced that 200,000 orcs were present at the Pelenor fields. When you compare the two armies, Sauron's army was bigger, but only by about 3 times, but certainly not 20 times as big. Though that is only what I perceived in the film, not the book.
I agree that we're only discussing the movies. Will have to watch the Minas Tirith battle again to be sure, but from memory there were many times the number of orcs present as were at Theoden's door.

Many of the enemy weren't able to engage the poorly-led Gondorians as there wasn't room enough to close for battle.

Regardless, let's figure this out by rewatching the DVDs and describing what we each see. It would be helpful, if you were to do so, to mention the scene from which you make your determinations.

And do oliphaunts and crew count as one?
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Old 08-08-2006, 12:32 PM   #11
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Of course it is not unknown (gasp!) for PJ and
friends to make mistakes (see direction challenged Legolas
in Rohan), so even if PJ gave numbers for the movie
they would have to be logistically reasonable to be
believable. How would 300,000+, in addition to the
needed support personnel) be sustained with weapons, food, etc.?
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Old 08-08-2006, 02:08 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin
How would 300,000+, in addition to the
needed support personnel) be sustained with weapons, food, etc.?
For what? The armies of Sauron were only on the field for a day, afterwhich time they were subsumed by the ooze of the dead.

And as for victuals, methinks that they found them were they lay...
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Old 08-08-2006, 03:36 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin
Of course it is not unknown (gasp!) for PJ and
friends to make mistakes (see direction challenged Legolas
in Rohan), so even if PJ gave numbers for the movie
they would have to be logistically reasonable to be
believable. How would 300,000+, in addition to the
needed support personnel) be sustained with weapons, food, etc.?

It is worth noting that History proves REAL LIFE battles can take place with armies in excess of 80,000; I believe there was an army once with 250,000 soldiers - not sure but may have been Norman/Viking perhaps? No doubt others will have more examples. So it is possible to command & cater for such an army in theory, but filming it all in a movie may not be so possible, unless one uses further graphics to such an extent that the movie is overanimated.

But one thing that puzzles me is why Tolkien never stated just how big in numbers the host which the Witch-King lead to battle. He only revealed that it was one of, but not the greatest, armies ever sent by Mordor. Perhaps a sign of overconfidence by Sauron, or perhaps the Witch-King? I suspect the latter had a much more active role in organising & marshalling the armies. Not that they would have forcasted the rise of the King of the Dead!

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Old 08-08-2006, 05:45 PM   #14
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The army sieging Minas Tirith as Macalaure references to is Karen Wynn Fonstads' Atlas of Middle-earth. Where she approximates this number of 45,000, I think she breaks it down to:

18,000 Haradrim
7,000 Variags from Khand
20,000 Orcs

Fonstad did not have access to the Letters of JRR Tolkien so there are some mistakes in it. However, it is one of the best Tolkien guides (if you're looking for a guide to the books) that is out there, and is highly recommended. Fonstad never just doesn't make up stuff, she's got textual support for it. I know where she came up with the 18,000 Haradrim, but I do not have the Atlas available and am still trying to figure out where the other 2 numbers come from. But as far as the Haradrim force on Pelennor fields, 18,000 seems to be a good approximation:

Quote:
And if the Rohirrim at there onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse, for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath.~Battle of Pelennor Fields
Theoden says he has '6,000' spears, thrice that amount, there's where the 18,000 Haradrim come from. Again this is just an approximation (even with the quote from the book...'if'), but I think it's a reliable one. I've never seen Fonstad's numbers disputed, as she always has a reasoning for them.

As far as those at the Morannon, the only clue I know of is that it would be greater than the force sent to siege Minas Tirith, because we are told that Sauron still hadn't sent his 'main army.' The 10 times as many as the force Aragorn sent out with seems reasonable.

Now in the movies, I've heard 250,000 were on the Pelennor Fields, and I can believe that seeing as it's a Jackson movie. The Morannon, as Mansun says did not seem to be very many, 10-20 thousand or so.
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Old 08-08-2006, 09:24 PM   #15
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Note that the Lords of Gondor state that the army that Aragorn leads to assault the Black Gate (~7000) is but a shadow of its former glory, where these 7000 would be merely the vanguard.

How many were present when Sauron lost his Ring? And just a thought: how many were present when Thangorodrim was thrown down?
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:36 PM   #16
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I believe there was an army once with 250,000 soldiers - not sure but may have been Norman/Viking perhaps?
Not Norman or Viking, no. Their armies never were anything like that big.

In the age of armor and sword armies were small because of a few necessities. A) Populations were not large enough to support armies hundreds of thousands strong. B) An army that size could not be fed. It could not bring enough food along with it to feed itself over a campaign (even assuming that it would be able to gather that much food) and it could not live off the land for any amount of time before it would starve.
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Old 08-28-2006, 05:36 PM   #17
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Another note on Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. She remarks that 45,000 is 'a very conservative estimate'.

We know where the 18,000 Haradrim number came from, the other two numbers she gives as a rough estimate.

The 20,000 (which is the host from Minas Morgul and Barad-dur) number she refers to this:
Quote:
'greater than any army that had issued "from that vale since the days of Isildur's might;... and yet it was but one and not the greatest of the hosts that Mordor now sent forth."
And she roughly gages that this was the greatest host to march out since Isildur's might, would be about 20,000.

And then the 7,000 is more of a filler, to make up the reserves that Gothmog threw into the fight. It is those who came from Rhun and Khand, and acts more as a filler. We know that the force sent to siege Gondor was not Sauron's greatest yet. It seems as if say she had lowered the Morgul/Barad-dur host to say 15,000 than the number of Gothmog's reserves would have been upped to 12,000. As she had deemed roughly a 4:1 ratio between the Free People's force and Sauron's force.

So, because she calls this a 'very conservative estimate', and that she really is unsure about the force Easterlings and the force from Khand that Gothmog threw into the battle, personally I would up the number to about 50-60,000.
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:32 AM   #18
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How do you think Sauron's armies would fare with today's world of soldiers, e.g. US army?
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Old 09-07-2006, 08:35 AM   #19
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Mansun... we have machine guns and nukes. We probably would not have one casualty... they would just be mowed down with bullets. Oh yeah, and shells. And mines. And bombs.
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Old 09-07-2006, 10:00 AM   #20
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Mansun... we have machine guns and nukes. We probably would not have one casualty... they would just be mowed down with bullets. Oh yeah, and shells. And mines. And bombs.
I was referring more towards numbers.
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Old 09-08-2006, 05:23 AM   #21
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If you are talking about numbers, then I think that Sauron's armies definitely have the edge then.
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Old 09-08-2006, 10:22 AM   #22
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I think that the number is between 100,000 and 200,000, though Gimli and Legolas would know for sure. I've found these:

"With 100,000 orcs participating in the massive Battle of Pelennor Fields, Taylor and his crew decided to provide them with distinguishing features. "We played around with prosthetics. We created an Elephant Man-style orc and characters with more mutated growths."" Full article here .

And there was this: "The battle pitted 120,000 digital orcs, each with its own AI fighting style and armour against 8,000 digital Riders of Rohan."

And this that mentions an orc army "200,000 strong" (page 4).
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Old 01-03-2007, 02:33 PM   #23
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In the ROTK EE, didn't they PJ or somebody give us a roundabout number? Something like 200,000 at the Pelennor Fields, while about twice that remained behind in Mordor? I know those two numbers seem a little bit much, but if Sauron had been massing armies since his return to Mordor, I think the overall number of his armies would definitely be over 100,000, as much as 400,000 I don't think so, maybe around 250,000 max.
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Old 01-28-2007, 05:02 PM   #24
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I'm sure I've read Bouddica (don't ask me how its spelt) army was 100,000 and Melkor knows how many troops Xerxes had at Thermopylae so it is possible to have that larges armies in pre modern eras. and as for providing food orcs seemed to enjoy eating any flesh so I'm sure that can't have been much of a problem
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Old 01-29-2007, 06:46 PM   #25
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I'm sure I've read Bouddica (don't ask me how its spelt) army was 100,000 and Melkor knows how many troops Xerxes had at Thermopylae so it is possible to have that larges armies in pre modern eras.
And, of course, ancient historians are not at all known for inflating the numbers in their texts.
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Old 02-03-2007, 11:55 PM   #26
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I don't think there could possibly be that many orcs at the 'book' Pellennor Fields, simply because it would be impossible to win the battle. 6,000 Rohirrim, the garrison in Minas Tirith (which we don't know the number), 3,000 or so reinforcements from Dol Amroth, and a couple of hundred northern Rangers (in the book there was no Army of the Dead at the actual battle of Minas Tirith, they had fulfilled their oaths killing off the Corsairs). All in all not many, considering there were nine Nazgul, heaps of Mumakil and countless Trolls and Orcs against them. So I'd say 50,000, no more, in the book-version of the battle.

As for the movie, well, anything's possible in a movie so whatever you want.

And I don't think Sauron would have left the majority of his troops in Mordor, though the line

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Old 02-04-2007, 04:28 AM   #27
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The figure? I guess maybe up to 300,000
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Old 02-22-2007, 12:28 PM   #28
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I think Tolkein stated that the numbers at Mordor were more than 10 times the match of the 10,000 strong army sent by Gandalf to the Black Gate. It is also mentioned that The Witch-King sent forth one of, & not the greatest, army from his Kingdom into battle against Gondor. If this is so, the army he rode with was probably slightly less than what remained in Mordor, perhaps 100,000 soldiers. Any more than this then I doubt if it could not have been the greatest host sent.
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